The real Wildwood: thoughts and anecdotes

[Wanderer]

I've started this thread to contain some discussions that have been emerging from the discussion of The Wanderer, as they seemed to deserve their own place:

https://www.thetarotforum.com/wildwood/0-the-wanderer/

 

The Wildwood deck is based on the mythology of the old, deep forest... of which we have very little now surviving in northern Europe. Without access to the environment, it's hard for us to immerse ourselves in the mythos, or really understand what the cards refer to. This thread, therefore, is for wide-ranging thoughts and descriptions of the real-world examples of the ancient woods: both on a mundane physical level, and impressions based on intuition or any other approaches. I want to get to the heart of what the Wildwood is actually about, and where it fits into the human psyche.

 

To start with I'll copy over some of the discussions from the other thread, but feel free to go down any gnarled and tangled pathways that you like!

:)

[Wanderer]

Excepts copied from the 'Wanderer' thread:

 

ilweran:

"The forest is a proper 'fairytale' forest - Hansel & Gretel could be in there, Little Red Riding Hood's Wolf is prowling. It is untamed, full of monsters that our fear has created as well as genuine dangers. The Wanderer feels like they have lost some of the naivety of The Fool, they know they're going into the forest, they know there are dangers. I like this change of title from both the RWS and the Greenwood."

 

Wanderer:

"The way it comes across to me, though, is that the fairy tales are the simplifications and rationalisations that have come out of trying to understand the Wildwood, rather than literal elements of it. The characters in the deck are older and somehow deeper. The wolf might well be there, but it's not the caricature of the one in Little Red Riding Hood; it's something much more complex, with aspects that could give rise to those stories, but also aspects that could give rise to many very different tales as well."

 

ilweran:

"On the fairy tales, I think the reason people connect with these two decks may be similar to why those fairy tales are still being told, and why we keep writing new stories about forests). As far as I'm aware there are no true wild woods left in the UK, yet still 'a mouse takes a stroll in the deep dark wood' in The Gruffalo, in Doctor Who forest covers the whole planet overnight (and does surprisingly little damage, there's a book called 'The Trees' by Ali Shaw that shows more realistic consequences). Personally I find it hard to separate either deck completely from the series 'Robin or Sherwood' partly because of Mark Ryan's role in it and partly because that was my first exposure to the Horned God and any sort of British paganism.

 

To go back, Mesopotamian mythology has the hero Gilgamesh travel to a great forest to be the first to fell trees."

 

Wanderer:

"I think I've only once been in a true wildwood in the UK, and will never forget it. I was doing an insect survey in the northern Highlands, in a remote stream valley at the back end of a large estate with no significant mountains to attract the walkers. The whole estate is well known for Caledonian Forest remnants, but this was something else: several acres of ancient birchwood, interspersed with a few pines, oak and aspen. It was alive in a way I can't really explain. Bilberry thickets you had  to climb over, smothering generations of fallen, moss-pillowed trunks. The air buzzing with clouds of insects. A green light somehow blending with the muffled music of the water. Deer tracks, bird calls and rustlings everywhere. It all sounds nice, but mundane, when you write it down... but it feels utterly different when you're there. It felt sacred.

 

I came out of there (fast; I should perhaps have mentioned the midges...) with a completely new understanding of what ancient really means when it comes to woodland. England's "ancient" woodland is anything but the Wildwood, alas. There was a presence there that I still can't define or really recognise, except that it makes sense of the forest mythology. That sense of the forest having its own laws, and a personality of its own (as in the background of this card) is something we're always looking for, but (at least until then) never really find. That Dr. Who episode was memorable, but really didn't 'get' the Wildwood at all, I thought. (Will look up the Ali Shaw book - that sounds intriguing!)

 

I wonder whether other pristine forests around the world have a similar sense of otherness... but I suspect their personalities are all their own. How much of the mythos of the northern European forest is based on how these places make us feel? How much is half-forgotten history somehow embedded into the fabric of the place, returning to haunt (or teach) us? How much, instead, is that there really are 'entities' that live in hidden realms, to which the ancient woods open pathways?"

 

ilweran:

"I like this a lot! [last two sentences above] And suspect it's both.

I do believe the land remembers. That's my feeling from growing up in the South Wales valleys, where so much had changed in such a short space of time, and where, in places, there had been so much loss, and then such sudden change again. And that's just the recent history without peeling the layers of feeling back further. Without knowing the history at all, as a very small child I knew the dead were still down there beneath us, a decade later I found that was the truth.

 

The entities... There are places that definitely have something about them. Many probably were used as places of religious significance in the past, some were adopted and churches built. Whatever it was it's still there, dormant perhaps in some places waiting for someone to come 'knocking'..."

[Wanderer]

I completely appreciate the peeling back of layers of the past embedded in a place - especially as a palaeontologist, since that's basically what I do (but rather more prosaically!). There have been times and places where I've suddenly felt the presence of something beyond what was in front of my eyes: nothing definite, but just a sense that there was far more to see, if only I could. Normally, these moments have been in forests.

 

So, the idea that these ancient forests may form some sort of bridge for entities that are part of some different (unspecified!) type of reality... this has got to be at the heart of reading with the Wildwood, and understanding what the mythology really means. I'm very interested in the esoteric characters of the Wildwood, and where they have come from. The Green Man, for example, or the Woodwose. To my knowledge, we have no real idea how these personifications originated in human culture, and yet their nature is basically constant. So are we looking at these forms being real psychic (or even physical) manifestations of personal, singular entities that people have genuinely encountered, or is this a human way of trying to frame and describe abstract feelings and intuitions? Do we even create psychic manifestations by trying to frame abstract ideals, which other  people can then pick up on..?

 

[Rose Lalonde]

Sorry, I don't own the Wildwood, but am only popping in to say I have enjoyed reading your posts! Wanderer when you talk about it feeling completely different, I get that. I live in a town, but at the edge of over 800 protected acres of remaining kohekohe forest, and with only about a dozen steps in, there's always a strong sense of something closing behind me, of being swallowed up in a way that I definitely like (but that also sends danger signals to my hindbrain). The air smells and feels different, a lot of oxygen and water and a 'light greenish' scent. And though I sometimes pass people on the trail, most of the time it's silent except for streams and wind or droplets on leaves, the many birds. It's disorienting to step out of it again into the sunshine, the thinner, dryer air, and suburbia.

[ilweran]

Our discussion combined with my starting to study the Greenwood is leading me down many paths at the moment, from Chesca Potter's involvement with the Fellowship of Isis to Elen of the Ways, to the church near where I grew up that was possibly built on a pagan site, has two ancient yews and was, so one of the stories goes, named for Helen, mother of Constantine - again, according to some, there can be confusion between all the Helens, Helenas, Elaines etc and Elen of the Ways. Oh, and then there are various books by the Caitlin Matthews that I'm eyeing up, a couple by John Matthews and a deluge by other authors. Also so much online about the Wildwood that looks interesting to read...

 

I am in a forest, with many paths to choose from and a rapidly growing reading list  ;D

 

So are we looking at these forms being real psychic (or even physical) manifestations of personal, singular entities that people have genuinely encountered, or is this a human way of trying to frame and describe abstract feelings and intuitions? Do we even create psychic manifestations by trying to frame abstract ideals, which other  people can then pick up on..?

 

Personally, I think it's both. We influence them, whatever they actually are, they influence us. We are not separate from nature, no matter how hard we (some of us) try to be. We change things, it's what we do.

 

I read somewhere (Possibly Gossip from the Forest by Sara Maitland) about efforts to protect oak trees by leaving them alone, removing human interference. It didn't work. The trees had adapted to our management of them. That's the sort thing that happens when we think of ourselves as separate from nature.

 

Anyway, excuse me just pouring my thoughts out. My head is full of snippets of things all saved to read later.

 

If I did a reading and pulled out The Wanderer I would not be surprised. What I've actually got twice is Balance. Wise advice perhaps...

[Wanderer]

Sorry, I don't own the Wildwood, but am only popping in to say I have enjoyed reading your posts! Wanderer when you talk about it feeling completely different, I get that. I live in a town, but at the edge of over 800 protected acres of remaining kohekohe forest, and with only about a dozen steps in, there's always a strong sense of something closing behind me, of being swallowed up in a way that I definitely like (but that also sends danger signals to my hindbrain). The air smells and feels different, a lot of oxygen and water and a 'light greenish' scent. And though I sometimes pass people on the trail, most of the time it's silent except for streams and wind or droplets on leaves, the many birds. It's disorienting to step out of it again into the sunshine, the thinner, dryer air, and suburbia.

 

Thanks for dropping by, Rose Lalonde[/member] !  :)

Yes, that's exactly it. Even in a not-quite-pristine forest (with trails, in this case), the boundary seems to seal the outside world out. Sometimes  it's as if a curtain falls across the path behind, almost abruptly, and all your senses are suddenly heightened. I know exactly what you mean when you say you like the sensation, but there is a hint of danger with it; it forces us to alertness and appreciation... and possibly into a a state of awareness of things that we might not otherwise be able to sense..?

 

I've been travelling back from Austria the past two days. Where we were, the mountains are dramatic and glorious... but somehow tamed, the life drained out of them by gondolas, hiking parties and mountain bikers. The marmots are retreating to the highest peaks. The woods all seem... soulless. I can't quite put my finger on it, but the tourist trap we were in had lost whatever it is that the deep forests still have. Even in the wild centre of Wales, we've been trying to think of local places where that sense of sacred nature is still present... and it's getting very hard to find. 

[Wanderer]

I am in a forest, with many paths to choose from and a rapidly growing reading list  ;D

Excellent - what a wonderful place to get lost!  ;D

A list of recommended books, with brief comments, would be very much appreciated...!

 

So are we looking at these forms being real psychic (or even physical) manifestations of personal, singular entities that people have genuinely encountered, or is this a human way of trying to frame and describe abstract feelings and intuitions? Do we even create psychic manifestations by trying to frame abstract ideals, which other  people can then pick up on..?

 

Personally, I think it's both. We influence them, whatever they actually are, they influence us. We are not separate from nature, no matter how hard we (some of us) try to be. We change things, it's what we do.

Quite! I was at a bus stop today, in a small city, with parking lots and construction works around me, and seagulls nesting on a warehouse roof, with delightful (if raucous) chicks running around and flapping their wings. I wandered off a few paces to look at the insects that had found a few Buddleia bushes. Some of the other people there were looking at me very suspiciously. Why was I staring at a wasp..? And why did I seem happy about those noisy, messy birds? The sense of disapproval was definitely palpable. Those are the types of people who are now, sadly, all too  common. They could no longer see or feel what has been lost. I had a brief image of a pristine forest covering the place... but all that is long gone, there.

 

I read somewhere (Possibly Gossip from the Forest by Sara Maitland) about efforts to protect oak trees by leaving them alone, removing human interference. It didn't work. The trees had adapted to our management of them. That's the sort thing that happens when we think of ourselves as separate from nature.

 

If I did a reading and pulled out The Wanderer I would not be surprised. What I've actually got twice is Balance. Wise advice perhaps...

Now, is it that the trees have adapted to our management, or that the natural environment can no longer allow them to thrive, so that they need to be constantly 'medicated'? We no longer have the ecological balance of the wildwood; the predators are mostly gone, the soil weakened, insect numbers collapsed, and fungi a shadow of what they were. Balance is what nature is all about; start taking things out of the equation, and simplifying, and it all collapses before our eyes. Transplant something wild into a laboratory (or build a lab around  them) and it doesn't do well.

 

So what is it that was (and, somewhere I hope, still is) so different about the real Wildwood? Is it the sheer amount of life? Some emergent property of a complex system, analogous to what neuroscientists say gives rise to human consciousness? I honestly don't know. It's not dependent on one type of forest, that's for sure. Can the same sensations be encountered in other types of environment? Mountains, caves, or under the sea... or is it just the forest? We might need to do some exploring!  :)

[ilweran]

I think I find that sense of sacred nature most by the sea. The sea can't be tamed, can't be made safe.

 

I used to get something of that feeling walking up the mountain behind my old house, but that was nature taking something back, which is quite inspiring in it self I suppose, as there was an old coal tip on the mountain that was green again. A lot of that in South Wales though, places that used to be green, then were black with coal dust before turning green again.

 

Going back to forests, growing up we used to go to the Forest of Dean quite regularly, and yes there was always 'a strong sense of something closing behind me'. As a child there was always a chance of wolves stalking my sister and I, in that strange silence that isn't a silence you get in forests, you're just away from 'modern noises'.

 

eta:

 

Now, is it that the trees have adapted to our management, or that the natural environment can no longer allow them to thrive, so that they need to be constantly 'medicated'?

 

Well, that is a big question and it's probably not clear cut!

 

A list of recommended books, with brief comments, would be very much appreciated...!

 

More a list of books I'm looking into, and there is a heavy focus on the Greenwood...

 

An Carow Gwyn: Sorcery and the Ancient Fayerie Faith by Robin Artisson, Demnesa DeSavyok not sure about this one, but he was allowed to use Greenwood images on his website so I'm looking into his work.

 

Pagan Portals - Rhiannon by Jhenah Telyndru (Paperback) Horses are shown a lot in the Greenwood (There's a nice image that iirc is Rhiannon by Chesca Potter here, also another of, presumably Elen of the Ways)

 

Some on fairy tales:

 

Once Upon a Time: A Short History of Fairy Tale by Marina Warner

 

The Irresistible Fairy Tale: The Cultural and Social History of a Genre by Jack Zipes

 

Some on forests etc.:

 

The Old Ways: A Journey on Foot by Robert Macfarlane

 

Wildwood: A Journey Through Trees by Roger Deakin

 

Oak and Ash and Thorn: The Ancient Woods and New Forests of Britain by Peter Fiennes

 

Also:

 

Elen of the Ways by Caroline Wise, Linda Iles Caroline was a friend of Chesca Potter, and named as Elen of the Ways the being Chesca saw in a vision. They were both part of the Fellowship of Isis.

 

Wild Magic: The Wildwood Tarot Workbook by Mark Ryan, John Matthews Considering this one, though from reviews it isn't really a workbook.

 

There are also books on the Mabinogion/Arthur by Caitlin Matthews, that are more about Chesca Potter's artwork (as well as a personal interest in Welsh Mythology and the link with Elen of the Ways (or hosts))

 

Mabon And the Mysteries of Britain: An Exploration of the Mabinogion

 

Arthur And the Sovereignty of Britain: King And Goddess in the Mabinogion both by Caitlin Matthews

 

Also  Guide to Legendary London by John Matthews

 

I've started a journal here, second post includes links to various things I've found online regarding the Greenwood and it's creators.

 

It's a start, though the more I look the more there is to potentially research. I've started looking at the old AT study group for the GW and will look at the one for the WW as well. It would have saved me some of the digging around online if I'd gone there first, but I think there is value in the search and finding things for yourself.

 

I'm now looking into the GW Fool and that's led me to British and German turf labyrinths and from there to the Nazca lines...