ilweran Posted December 2, 2018 Posted December 2, 2018 I just heard about this, it's distracted me from Doctor Who so must be big news :eek: Thanks for the mention Wanderer[/member] - I can't claim any special knowledge here but everything I've seen so far indicates that this is being done without Chesca's permission. I have read that they will be 'putting aside royalties' for her. I also suspect now that the Celtic Shaman's Pack was also reprinted without her permission - I would be happy to be corrected if anyone knows different, but John Matthews himself has said since the reprint that noone has had contact from her.
ilweran Posted December 3, 2018 Posted December 3, 2018 Horrible thought - from a legal point of view, given that she has made no attempt to prevent illegal copies being made has Chesca essentially lost her copyright of the images? Just suddenly remembered a thread on AT with Karen from Baba saying if they didn't actively try and stop piracy of their decks they could lose ownership... Of course didn't so the whole thing being unethical, even if they can get away with it legally.
gregory Posted December 3, 2018 Posted December 3, 2018 USG seems to manage without Pamela or Arthur defending their rights... But no-one with morals will buy this - I hope. The images are readily available for you to print your own. Ryan deserves to pay for all these decks and then to be stuck with them ... Oh and the putting aside royalties is a smoke screen. Someone else in the tarot community who thought I knew Chesca (AS IF ! and no that's not me putting up a smoke screen; I do NOT know her; I wish I did) pumped me hard on this one a few years ago, saying they DESPERATELY needed to get in touch with her to pay her the royalties that were building up... I've no doubt she knows where they are stacking up if she wants them...
ilweran Posted December 3, 2018 Posted December 3, 2018 Isn't USG ownership of the RWS images a bit dodgy as well? But they have expensive lawyers and deep pockets... Any way, a quick Google suggests it's a myth. You can't lose copyright, but you can reduce the value of your work. It could be though that they are relying on that myth? Who knows. Anyone who wants a deck can print one off themselves (or use a company such as MPC) , though apparently this will have bad energy and won't give good readings according to Johm Matthews. Personally I think that's more likely to be true of the reprint (not that I actually believe it at all!)
gregory Posted December 4, 2018 Posted December 4, 2018 Isn't USG ownership of the RWS images a bit dodgy as well? But they have expensive lawyers and deep pockets... I would say so, but... ETA no deck I have printed myself has ever proved a problem. I feel sure this reprint would. I'm sorry to see John Matthews contributing to this rubbish. I thought better of him.
ilweran Posted December 6, 2018 Posted December 6, 2018 For those not on the Cartomancy forum, a Facebook page has been set up to spread the word that this new edition is being done without the artists permission -https://www.facebook.com/Chesca-Potter-997732667081594/. Apologies if it's been posted somewhere already, I did have a quick look.
Saturn Celeste Posted December 6, 2018 Posted December 6, 2018 ilweran[/member] thank you for the linkie! X/
gregory Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 Just for everyone's info - Chesca's brother has just posted this and asks that EVERYONE tell EVERYONE: Post from Lindsay Potter that's he's asked be shared: "This will be my last post on this topic and I will not respond to any comments but I felt it was only fair to express Chesca’s views on this matter. Chesca has not been consulted regarding a reprint of the Greenwood Tarot, and therefore, at this point in time, no authorization has been granted for the reproduction of associated artwork. It is of course possible that the original contract precludes the necessity for Chesca’s wishes to be taken into account but we feel that this would be morally indefensible. We can also not understand the validity in producing a reprint; as it appears from the limited information we have, that this is being driven by financial motives. This has never been Chesca’s focus. If indeed there is a genuine interest for a reprint of the Greenwood Tarot then all options will be considered. Chesca bears no malice. Indeed only love and spiritual enlightenment are employed during her present day journey through life. The Greenwood Tarot, along with her other artwork, belong to a distant time and place, which should perhaps not be reproduced but preserved as her legacy." Hope no-one here will buy Mark's reprint, and will deny him the pleasure of making money out of it.
DanielJUK Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 one day I hope to get a copy of this deck but I think it's unethical and wrong to buy this reprint which was done without Chesca's consent. Avoiding it. Good on her brother for speaking up! I joined the Facebook page for her a few days ago
gregory Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 Print one from MiShell's scans. They come with Chesca's blessing.
AJ-ish/Sharyn Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 I'm curious what his definition of limited issue is. What is Your definition? Mine is somewhere between 100 and 1000. I have zero doubt that whatever it is it will sell out. People are people.
Thoughtful Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 l am glad that Chesca is well aware of what is going on. l would not under any circumstance buy a reprint now without knowing it was fully endorsed by Chesca.
gregory Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 He said 100 decks, in the first instance; I bet it's up to a million or so by now...
FLizarraga Posted December 11, 2018 Posted December 11, 2018 I find unfortunate that a person's greed and arrogance has forced Chesca and her family to make public statements, and finally to take legal action: Whatever the outcome of all the legal wrangling, Mark Ryan is morally in the wrong. I would not touch this with a ten-foot pole.
FLizarraga Posted December 14, 2018 Posted December 14, 2018 For those of us who don't Facebook, here's a link to Andy Boroveshengra' public letter, posted on the 12th: https://www.facebook.com/Chesca-Potter-Art-Fan-Club-997732667081594/?__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARDCbTbNEarpV0XrzYYKdXCV5T8XcUlDpcIZ8m2KCnPDmh9kfGH2x63xSwwtG-sg4ITofFaGpx_uPyJo&fref=nf
Flaxen Posted December 14, 2018 Posted December 14, 2018 Thank you for sharing the update! Mark Ryan does not come across well at all in the exchange with her brother.
Raggydoll Posted December 14, 2018 Posted December 14, 2018 For those of us who don't Facebook, here's a link to Andy Boroveshengra' public letter, posted on the 12th: https://www.facebook.com/Chesca-Potter-Art-Fan-Club-997732667081594/?__tn__=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARDCbTbNEarpV0XrzYYKdXCV5T8XcUlDpcIZ8m2KCnPDmh9kfGH2x63xSwwtG-sg4ITofFaGpx_uPyJo&fref=nf Thank you for keeping us posted. I rarely use Facebook these days so I appreciate that you brought this to my attention!
Ravena Noir Posted December 15, 2018 Posted December 15, 2018 Print one from MiShell's scans. They come with Chesca's blessing. Got a link? Sent from my SM-J700P using Tapatalk
Raggydoll Posted December 15, 2018 Posted December 15, 2018 Print one from MiShell's scans. They come with Chesca's blessing. Got a link? Sent from my SM-J700P using Tapatalk https://voicewithinthecards.wordpress.com/greenwood-tarot-book/
Wheel of Fantastic Posted December 16, 2018 Posted December 16, 2018 I don't have any skin in this game as I have no interest in the Greenwood tarot. However, having read through all the posts in the thread so far I think it is worth playing Devil's Advocate. I get the sense that Mark seems fairly sure of his legal standing in this matter, I would be surprised if he hasn't sought out legal advice regarding re-printing the Greenwood. The morality of printing the deck without Chesca's permission can certainly be argued but if Mark can legally print the deck then who are we to jump on our moral high horses? If Mark can provide proof of his legal claim to print the deck then he should publish it to prove his claim. I love the tarot community but I do feel - and I include myself here - that we are sometimes too quick to jump onto a bandwagon. We are vilifying someone here in the court of public opinion without all the facts to hand. Mark should prove his claim but until then we should hold our fire. Yes, Chesca's brother has spoken out but that's only one side of the story. We need balance.
Grandma Posted December 16, 2018 Posted December 16, 2018 I get the sense that Mark seems fairly sure of his legal standing in this matter, I would be surprised if he hasn't sought out legal advice regarding re-printing the Greenwood. The morality of printing the deck without Chesca's permission can certainly be argued but if Mark can legally print the deck then who are we to jump on our moral high horses? If Mark can provide proof of his legal claim to print the deck then he should publish it to prove his claim. I've also been following this thread and I've also been thinking about the legal versus ethical aspect of the reprinting of this deck. Here's what I think. Many laws validate the ethical standards of some constituents of the governments that pass those laws and violate the ethical standards of others, from big examples like whether abortion is or is not legal, down through tax loop holes that can be seen as protecting the efforts of those who have money or as hurting those who do not, all the way down to whether it is legal to reprint a tarot deck without the permission of the artist. In this case it may indeed be legal to reprint this deck. I'm not a lawyer, and I am particularly not a lawyer who is familiar with the contract in question. But that doesn't mean one way or the other that it is or is not ethical. Unlike laws, ethics are not black and white. We get to decide for ourselves. Legal or not, I don't think the reprint as I understand it from this thread is ethical, and I don't think this puts me on a high horse. Questioning the morality of a law doesn't show a feeling of moral superiority or entitlement, it shows a type of moral responsibility that is also one of the cornerstones of a democratic legal system.
Grizabella Posted December 16, 2018 Posted December 16, 2018 I've only read the first and last posts on this thread, but in the first post it states that the man who is doing the reprint is one of the creators of the deck, in which case he's got the right to do the reprint. If the other creator/creators have a beef with him doing that, then that will all come out in the wash. I have a question, though. I've always been curious about what the big deal about the Greenwood is, for heaven's sake? Is it just that it's out of print that makes it the Holy Grail of Tarot? I've never seen the deck myself except a scan or two here an there over the years. What's so special about that particular deck?
gregory Posted December 16, 2018 Posted December 16, 2018 I don't have any skin in this game as I have no interest in the Greenwood tarot. However, having read through all the posts in the thread so far I think it is worth playing Devil's Advocate. I get the sense that Mark seems fairly sure of his legal standing in this matter, I would be surprised if he hasn't sought out legal advice regarding re-printing the Greenwood. The morality of printing the deck without Chesca's permission can certainly be argued but if Mark can legally print the deck then who are we to jump on our moral high horses? If Mark can provide proof of his legal claim to print the deck then he should publish it to prove his claim. I love the tarot community but I do feel - and I include myself here - that we are sometimes too quick to jump onto a bandwagon. We are vilifying someone here in the court of public opinion without all the facts to hand. Mark should prove his claim but until then we should hold our fire. Yes, Chesca's brother has spoken out but that's only one side of the story. We need balance. I don't care just about the legality. It is well known that the book Mark wrote when the deck was first published upset Chesca so much that she wrote her own and posted it on the web, to get across what she had INTENDED her art to say (you will note that he does not plan to republish his book.) She made it very clear at the time that she didn't ever want it republished. That alone puts him WAY in the wrong. And he said himself in an earlier interview that it could not be reprinted without her consent; that he would have to find a new artist. IF he knew that then, he still knows it now. If by chance she were dead, her heirs would have inherited the copyright - and we can EASILY see that is not Mark or any of his buddies or he would have said so. Griz - he holds joint copyright on the book and the titles on the cards. NOT on Chesca's artwork. He admitted this himself in his interview a few years ago.
FLizarraga Posted December 17, 2018 Posted December 17, 2018 I don't have any skin in this game as I have no interest in the Greenwood tarot. However, having read through all the posts in the thread so far I think it is worth playing Devil's Advocate. I get the sense that Mark seems fairly sure of his legal standing in this matter, I would be surprised if he hasn't sought out legal advice regarding re-printing the Greenwood. The morality of printing the deck without Chesca's permission can certainly be argued but if Mark can legally print the deck then who are we to jump on our moral high horses? If Mark can provide proof of his legal claim to print the deck then he should publish it to prove his claim. I love the tarot community but I do feel - and I include myself here - that we are sometimes too quick to jump onto a bandwagon. We are vilifying someone here in the court of public opinion without all the facts to hand. Mark should prove his claim but until then we should hold our fire. Yes, Chesca's brother has spoken out but that's only one side of the story. We need balance. To this day, Chesca Potter owns the rights to the art. Which means that it cannot be used without her legal consent. The legality of this is fairly straightforward. She was so unhappy with Mark Ryan's book that she posted her own writing plus the images on the Internet, free for anyone's personal use. This is also pretty self-explanatory. I don't have a dog in this fight either, as I don't know either Mark or Chesca, I'm not a collector, and I even have a printout of the deck that I don't use, simply because it is not a reading deck for me. Gorgeous, though. The alternate Lovers card is one of the most extraordinary I have ever seen.
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