Mary-El new cards in 2nd edition

[gregory]

That is of course spot on, Raggy. Very good point.

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

https://tarotsmyth.wordpress.com/

the artists website with shiffer's announcement to reprint and replace the whole works. 

You'd need to contact them about returning your deck. Or however much of it they deem fair. 

[McFaire]

10 hours ago, katrinka said:

She says of Judgement: "The changes in this card were mostly aesthetic. "

She goes on to explain that for the Judgment card she wanted to portray the entire cycle of death and rebirth in the phoenix, not just the moment it bursts into flame. As much as I like the old phoenix, portraying the full cycle does encompass more of the cards meaning.

[McFaire]

6 hours ago, gregory said:

Not entirely sure it was "an artist trying to make more money"; I think Marie is more honest than that.

 

The one I BITTERLY regret is the HP. But I read what Marie had to say, and also note what Kelly said in her video. Cater to all and give us the choice, seems the best option.

It would have been nice if they had chosen to include alternates. Some people are going to like the new cards, some will prefer the old ones.

 

However, I think it is unfair and incorrect of some others to lash out at the artist by angrily denouncing them as a sell out who betrayed their esoteric work.

[gregory]

I agree. I might have stayed shtum, were it not that while I'm sure there are people who do that (indeed, some very popular ones do it all the time...) I do not believe Marie would be among them.

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, McFaire said:

It would have been nice if they had chosen to include alternates. Some people are going to like the new cards, some will prefer the old ones.

 

However, I think it is unfair and incorrect of some others to lash out at the artist by angrily denouncing them as a sell out who betrayed their esoteric work.

Nobody's "angrily lashing out" or "denouncing (Marie) as a sell out" here. Not sure where you got this.

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, McFaire said:

She goes on to explain that for the Judgment card she wanted to portray the entire cycle of death and rebirth in the phoenix, not just the moment it bursts into flame. As much as I like the old phoenix, portraying the full cycle does encompass more of the cards meaning.

The takeaway I'm getting from what she wrote is that she's talking about phoenix symbolism in general. "It appears in a mundane life when the subject at hand has become obsolete and has come to the end of its useful cycle.  Its time to completely burn it down until nothing is left but ash, and only then can something new grow out of it.  It’s a reboot.

Make mistakes and rise again. Crash and burn, rise again. Fall, rise again..." etc. That would apply to the original image.

 

The new image is closer to a Chinese "phoenix", which does not carry that particular meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenghuang

Generally, you see those on household objects along with a dragon, and the meaning is not "burn and be reborn", it's "happy marriage."

[katrinka]

9 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I might be wrong here but I believe the standard printing option for tarot decks are 80 cards, to make full plates (the two extra cards that you end up with when you make a 78 card deck are often utilized as title cards or advertisement). At least that was the deal with the Thoth deck from the 80s where they decided to include 2 extra pieces of (rejected) artwork to make it a total of 80 cards. And my guess is that it would cost extra to add another plate of cards. And since it’s a mass market deck, they will want to keep costs down. 

That occurred to me, too. And she might confirm it - now that Kelly's mentioned alternate cards in the video, I'm sure a lot of people will be asking about it.
Or they might be included in the reprint. That would be nice. We'll see.

[gregory]

43 minutes ago, katrinka said:

The takeaway I'm getting from what she wrote is that she's talking about phoenix symbolism in general. "It appears in a mundane life when the subject at hand has become obsolete and has come to the end of its useful cycle.  Its time to completely burn it down until nothing is left but ash, and only then can something new grow out of it.  It’s a reboot.

Make mistakes and rise again. Crash and burn, rise again. Fall, rise again..." etc. That would apply to the original image.

 

The new image is closer to a Chinese "phoenix", which does not carry that particular meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenghuang

Generally, you see those on household objects along with a dragon, and the meaning is not "burn and be reborn", it's "happy marriage."

She may just have liked the Chinese image and not known that there was a different symbolism there ?

[katrinka]

19 minutes ago, gregory said:

She may just have liked the Chinese image and not known that there was a different symbolism there ?

Chinese phoenixes are gorgeous, aren't they?
But I'm not sure how someone as deeply into symbolism as she is would manage to miss that. Surely she's seen it (she did paint one for the deck) and I would think she'd have enough curiousity to at least do a google search on "Chinese phoenix".

[gregory]

Well, I dunno. I have a bit of a thing for phoenixes, but I don't know that it would have occurred to me that their meaning differed in China.... It probably SHOULD have, but until you mentioned it... This feels a bit like when our Indian friend asked what to wear to my father's funeral. Thank goodness she asked.... The event was packed with extremely traditional people - he was an Anglican minister -  and a gorgeous Indian woman in pure white would have horrified many of them. And that would have upset HER; she was fond of him, and my daughter's best friend! Differing symbolism doesn't always occur to everyone at the right moment !

[katrinka]

9 minutes ago, gregory said:

Well, I dunno. I have a bit of a thing for phoenixes, but I don't know that it would have occurred to me that their meaning differed in China.... It probably SHOULD have, but until you mentioned it... This feels a bit like when our Indian friend asked what to wear to my father's funeral. Thank goodness she asked.... The event was packed with extremely traditional people - he was an Anglican minister -  and a gorgeous Indian woman in pure white would have horrified many of them. And that would have upset HER; she was fond of him, and my daughter's best friend! Differing symbolism doesn't always occur to everyone at the right moment !

Yes, but your primary interest seems to be collecting? (Not a diss, just an observation.) She lives and breathes myths and symbols. Surely she knows that things change from one culture to the next.

[gregory]

I wouldn't call it my primary interest AS SUCH. Someone who collects as a primary interest is more interested in the acquisition than the items collected, if you know what I mean (I have been asked, for instance, if I open my decks. If I (gasp) USE them. Well, why would I buy them if I didn't ? I read with old and fragile ones, too. But I gather people do just collect shrink wrapped decks and stash them unopened. VERY sterile hobby. ) I collect because I love to study them all, as much as anything. I read voraciously - on tarot and many other things. And I fully recognise that various cultures see things differently. But even so - a phoenix almost feels like it came from Western mythology, originated there - I believe it first showed up in Greek myth. There is also the Egyptian Bennu, which may have started it all - though that's not at all clear. And the Chinese one does have a different name; it's us in the West who have "anglicised" it as a phoenix.

Edited June 14, 2019 by gregory

[katrinka]

6 minutes ago, gregory said:

And the Chinese one does have a different name; it's us in the West who have "anglicised" it as a phoenix.

Exactly. The term "dragon and phoenix" alone should be enough to send one a-googling.
There are similar concepts that different cultures came up with independently - the sacrifice of the corn god comes to mind - but the specifics tend to be very different. "Phoenix" doesn't really fit that model, it's an obvious anglicization.

And no, I wasn't inferring that you didn't take the shrink wrap off. I've read about such people - they have sheds full of toys, bubble gum cards, etc., all in the original, unopened packaging. Eep.

[FLizarraga]

55 minutes ago, gregory said:

I wouldn't call it my primary interest AS SUCH. Someone who collects as a primary interest is more interested in the acquisition than the items collected, if you know what I mean (I have been asked, for instance, if I open my decks. If I (gasp) USE them. Well, why would I buy them if I didn't ? I read with old and fragile ones, too. But I gather people do just collect shrink wrapped decks and stash them unopened. VERY sterile hobby. ) I collect because I love to study them all, as much as anything. I read voraciously - on tarot and many other things. And I fully recognise that various cultures see things differently. But even so - a phoenix almost feels like it came from Western mythology, originated there - I believe it first showed up in Greek myth. There is also the Egyptian Bennu, which may have started it all - though that's not at all clear. And the Chinese one does have a different name; it's us in the West who have "anglicised" it as a phoenix.

 

42 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Exactly. The term "dragon and phoenix" alone should be enough to send one a-googling.
There are similar concepts that different cultures came up with independently - the sacrifice of the corn god comes to mind - but the specifics tend to be very different. "Phoenix" doesn't really fit that model, it's an obvious anglicization.

Traditionally, Western scholars have conflated Oriental myths and symbols with Western ones, creating unnecessary confusion where there should be none. The Chinese dragon (though a creature of wind and water, never of fire, as far as I can remember) shares enough traits with its Western counterparts that it really translates. But the Fenghuang is NOT a phoenix, and the qilin is NOT a unicorn. I remember having conversations with Chinese people about these beings and watching them go, "What? No, that's not a unicorn/phoenix/whatever." The Chinese "phoenix" is actually closer to the Russian firebird.

 

It bears mentioning that our Western idea of the phoenix, though it did originate in Greece, has acquired in time strong alchemic overtones.

 

I have not really looked into Marie White's new book, so I'm commenting on the conversation here, not on the symbolism of the new card.

Edited June 14, 2019 by FLizarraga

[FLizarraga]

43 minutes ago, katrinka said:

And no, I wasn't inferring that you didn't take the shrink wrap off. I've read about such people - they have sheds full of toys, bubble gum cards, etc., all in the original, unopened packaging. Eep.

Eep indeed. 

[FLizarraga]

10 hours ago, AJ-ish/Sharyn said:

https://tarotsmyth.wordpress.com/

the artists website with shiffer's announcement to reprint and replace the whole works. 

You'd need to contact them about returning your deck. Or however much of it they deem fair. 

Thank you for Sharyn this. (Sorry, I could not resist...) I plan to keep mine regardless, and maybe ask Schiffer for a discount on the new printing.

 

I'd probably write Marie, too. It would be interesting to see what she thinks of the colors of the new print, as she hasn't mentioned that. Maybe those were the original colors, and they were intensified during the printing process for the first edition?

 

I do agree she has a right to change the art however she sees fit. It is her deck after all. And I find the new cards beautiful, though a little vanilla compared to the rest of the deck. (Like katrinka put it, so aptly, 'the appeal of the Mary-El is precisely that it IS "Landscapes of the Abyss".')

 

An interesting note: Somehow comparing both editions of the deck has given me some insight into the cards that I never had before. It is an intense deck that I had trouble reading with, and now I realize that somehow I was working too hard and relying on the book too much, instead of letting the cards themselves speak to me.

Edited June 14, 2019 by FLizarraga

[MoonGypsy]

Happy Saturday, everyone!

 

i wanted to let you all know that my good friend Kasia [TarotMap] has a wonderful interview that she did with Marie White on her ongoing series "Inspired Tarot Map". Please watch the interview here:

 

 

 

Enjoy!!! i am so proud of Kasia, she is a natural!

Edited June 15, 2019 by MoonGypsy

[Astraea]

16 hours ago, FLizarraga said:

Thank you for Sharyn this. (Sorry, I could not resist...) I plan to keep mine regardless, and maybe ask Schiffer for a discount on the new printing.

You don't need to return the faulty deck. Just use Schiffer's contact form and tell them what was wrong with it. The fellow who wrote me back said that they'd send a replacement as soon as the new printing is available, at no additional charge. He asked if I could send him my Amazon invoice, but if not it was okay (I didn't, but I did give him my order number).

[FLizarraga]

3 minutes ago, Astraea said:

You don't need to return the faulty deck. Just use Schiffer's contact form and tell them what was wrong with it. The fellow who wrote me back said that they'd send a replacement as soon as the new printing is available, at no additional charge. He asked if I could send him my Amazon invoice, but if not it was okay (I didn't, but I did give him my order number).

Thanks, Astraea! I shot them an email yesterday, but after reading your posts I suppose they'll do the same. I sent them my Amazon order number, too. (By the way, I LOVE your handle. It's so Elizabethan!)

 

My cards arrived undamaged, thankfully, but the peeling is noticeable --and I haven't even shuffled them yet...

[Astraea]

8 minutes ago, FLizarraga said:

Thanks, Astraea! I shot them an email yesterday, but after reading your posts I suppose they'll do the same. I sent them my Amazon order number, too. (By the way, I LOVE your handle. It's so Elizabethan!)

 

My cards arrived undamaged, thankfully, but the peeling is noticeable --and I haven't even shuffled them yet...

I think they must have decided at the corporate level how to handle this, so probably everyone who contacts them will receive the same information. 

 

My cards are peeling, too - and they're warping, as they were shipped with the ink still damp. What a fiasco! Schiffer will surely do better quality control after this. I respect them for the way they're handling replacements.

 

Elizabethan, that's me! 🙂

[McFaire]

2 hours ago, MoonGypsy said:

Happy Saturday, everyone!

 

i wanted to let you all know that my good friend Kasia [TarotMap] has a wonderful interview that she did with Marie White on her ongoing series "Inspired Tarot Map". Please watch the interview you here:

Cool, looking forward to watching this!

[katrinka]

21 hours ago, FLizarraga said:

 

Traditionally, Western scholars have conflated Oriental myths and symbols with Western ones, creating unnecessary confusion where there should be none. The Chinese dragon (though a creature of wind and water, never of fire, as far as I can remember) shares enough traits with its Western counterparts that it really translates. But the Fenghuang is NOT a phoenix, and the qilin is NOT a unicorn. I remember having conversations with Chinese people about these beings and watching them go, "What? No, that's not a unicorn/phoenix/whatever." The Chinese "phoenix" is actually closer to the Russian firebird.

 

It bears mentioning that our Western idea of the phoenix, though it did originate in Greece, has acquired in time strong alchemic overtones.

 

Yes!
And something else to consider is that there's no equivalent english words for Fenghuang or Qilin. ("Unicorn" is easier than "auspicious dragon-headed creature with scales and antlers". Some Qilin have a single antler, but not all!) That didn't help, in the beginning. But now that you mention it, we should get into the habit of calling them by their correct names, IMHO.

[FLizarraga]

So, has anyone received their replacement decks yet? I'm curious, as I have not heard a peep from anyone...

[KaiNO]

26 minutes ago, FLizarraga said:

So, has anyone received their replacement decks yet? I'm curious, as I have not heard a peep from anyone...

My name and address was added to the replacement list on June 18th by Mr Riddle, but I haven't heard or received anything after that...

But it seems like the 2nd edition still is off the market.