Comparative Tarot 08 or 11: Justice/Adjustment

[Rose Lalonde]

Justice/Adjustment

(NOTE: I know the placement of Justice and Strength is an issue. Since I had to do one before the other, I went with majority rule based on the 3 decks I've been posting: TdM and Thoth have Justice/Adjustment at 8, while RWS has it at 11. Feel free to discuss it when posting your own deck! :) )

 

Please see the discussion thread if you'd like some background about the study group.

 

If you post about more than one deck, please add a separate post below for each to make it easier to index. You can write about the same deck someone else did.

 

As a visual start, here are the Tarot de Marseille Noblet (Flornoy), the RWS, and the Thoth. (You don't have to compare your deck with these, though, if you have another deck in mind.)

 

If you'd like to add a small image of the card you're discussing that would be great. If not we can google it.

 

Feedback on comments about this card are welcome here! For general questions and suggestions, please use the discussion thread.

 

 

Green Witch Tarot

Tarot of the Hidden Realm

TdM, RWS, and Thoth

Victorian Fairy Tarot

[GreenFaerie]

Rose, a question. Since this is the "Justice" thread, even though they can be 8 or 11, you would like us to post all Justice cards here, and all Strength cards in the thread under #11?

 

(I clearly have RWS variants; all of mine have Strength at 8 and Justice at 11. But I will post the Justice cards here if that's how you wanted to organize it. :) )

[Rose Lalonde]

Hi GreenFaerie. Yes, I'd say post Justice here, since the pics are here.

 

Would it be ok if you just put Justice at 11 at the top of your reply? And you can edit the post title that pre-fills with the same title as the thread after you hit reply -- so where it comes up "Subject:  Re: Comparative Tarot 08 or 11," feel free to get rid of the "8 or".

 

Thanks, I didn't think about that confusion! There's no getting around it without leaving the numbers off the thread titles, but my plan was to number every card thread all the way to 78, so that if anyone clicks the Subject column in the page that lists all the Comparative threads, posts will list in order from Fool to World, then Wands starting with Ace... and ending with King (which hurts my heart a little, since in the Thoth, the series ends with the Princess (RWS Page), not the King -- but I'll definitely bend to the will of RWS for that! :D)

[sandrang123]

What strikes me is that unlike many "Justice" cards in decks I have worked with, RdM and RWS's figures are not blindfolded. They see clearly yet impartially, regardless. And what strikes me about Thoth is that the figure is not blindfolded either--she wears a mask, which complicates the image for me, as does her downward pointed sword, which offers a "final word" already delivered (to my mind, anyway) and balance, as the figure appears to be standing on pointed toes. In most decks I've seen, the sword is pointed upward. I love the infusion of blue in the Thoth deck, as I associate blue with swords (ever since owning the Sacred Rose deck) and with the capacity of intellect to reign.

 

There are very few decks I have seen without the scales and/or swords at all. Victorian Fairy comes to mind, where the magistrate appears to be weighing scrolls and the knowledge contained in them. He is also seated, as opposed to standing, which again is a variation worth considering. Also, there is no real "balance" shown in the card; the scrolls appear rather haphazardly laid about.

 

Also interesting to explore associations in the RW's Justice and The Emperor in many decks. I see a lot of similarities...Well, and now that I'm going there...the veiled cloak behind her calls to mind the High Priestess's energies, too...

 

Justice/Adjustment

(NOTE: I know the placement of Justice and Strength is an issue. Since I had to do one before the other, I went with majority rule based on the 3 decks I've been posting: TdM and Thoth have Justice/Adjustment at 8, while RWS has it at 11. Feel free to discuss it when posting your own deck! :) )

 

Please see the discussion thread if you'd like some background about the study group.

 

If you post about more than one deck, please add a separate post below for each to make it easier to index. You can write about the same deck someone else did.

 

As a visual start, here are the Tarot de Marseille Noblet (Flornoy), the RWS, and the Thoth. (You don't have to compare your deck with these, though, if you have another deck in mind.)

 

If you'd like to add a small image of the card you're discussing that would be great. If not we can google it.

 

Feedback on comments about this card are welcome here! For general questions and suggestions, please use the discussion thread.

 

[GreenFaerie]

Hi GreenFaerie. Yes, I'd say post Justice here, since the pics are here.

 

Would it be ok if you just put Justice at 11 at the top of your reply? And you can edit the post title that pre-fills with the same title as the thread after you hit reply -- so where it comes up "Subject:  Re: Comparative Tarot 08 or 11," feel free to get rid of the "8 or".

 

Thanks, I didn't think about that confusion! There's no getting around it without leaving the numbers off the thread titles, but my plan was to number every card thread all the way to 78, so that if anyone clicks the Subject column in the page that lists all the Comparative threads, posts will list in order from Fool to World, then Wands starting with Ace... and ending with King (which hurts my heart a little, since in the Thoth, the series ends with the Princess (RWS Page), not the King -- but I'll definitely bend to the will of RWS for that! :D)

 

Hi Rose,

 

Yes, that's fine! I will put Justice at 11 at the top of my posts. And I will delete the "8 or" from the pre-filled subject.

 

You're right; there's no way of getting around this problem unless you took off the numbers, but it will be really nice to be able to sort all of the cards and see the posts in order! :)

[GreenFaerie]

I wanted  to create a separate posts about this, apart from the logistical questions. Does anyone know the history of the debate over where Strength and Justice belong? I know this is a long-standing argument, but how did it start? Why do some people feel that Justice belongs at 8, and Strength at 11? Is there any numerical significance involved? For me, having Strength at 8 makes sense because a sideways 8 is the infinity symbol, which of course is an endless kind of strength. And having Justice at 11 also makes sense to me because the two 1s in 11 are parallel and equal, like the scales. But I don't know the argument for the cards being the other way, and I would love to know.

[GreenFaerie]

What strikes me is that unlike many "Justice" cards in decks I have worked with, RdM and RWS's figures are not blindfolded. They see clearly yet impartially, regardless. ...

 

There are very few decks I have seen without the scales and/or swords at all. Victorian Fairy comes to mind, where the magistrate appears to be weighing scrolls and the knowledge contained in them. He is also seated, as opposed to standing, which again is a variation worth considering. Also, there is no real "balance" shown in the card; the scrolls appear rather haphazardly laid about.

 

 

Justice at 11

 

Sandrang123, here is the Magistrate card from the Victorian Fairy Tarot that you mentioned. I've always liked this card; the Magistrate here always reminds me of an old-fashioned Victorian judge (as he's intended to, I'm sure), and the title of Magistrate indicates a civil court, large or small. All of the scrolls surrounding him always suggest a great deal of learning, to me; this is a man who knows his laws and has studied a long time in order to be as fair and impartial as he can be.

 

Until you mentioned it, I never thought about the fact that he is sitting instead of standing. Sitting is a more contemplative pose, maybe, more thoughtful, rather than standing with a sword, which suggests imminent action and being battle ready. Contemplation and thoughtfulness maybe indicate more impartiality - less vengeance. It's certainly a distinction worth considering!

[GreenFaerie]

What strikes me is that unlike many "Justice" cards in decks I have worked with, RdM and RWS's figures are not blindfolded. They see clearly yet impartially, regardless. And what strikes me about Thoth is that the figure is not blindfolded either--she wears a mask, which complicates the image for me, as does her downward pointed sword, which offers a "final word" already delivered (to my mind, anyway) and balance, as the figure appears to be standing on pointed toes. In most decks I've seen, the sword is pointed upward.

 

Justice at 11

 

Sandrang 123, when I read your comment about the RWS figure not being blindfolded, and the Thoth figure with her sword pointed downward, I immediately thought of this card. The faerie pictured here looks almost directly out of the card. She holds her sword hilt in one hand, but like the Thoth, it is pointed downward. Also, her bottom hand is clutching the sword's leather scabbard - it is not drawn, but she could draw it, at a moment's notice. She is ready and willing to defend or avenge, but will not unless she must. And like the VFT magistrate, she appears to be sitting or kneeling, which suggests a position of loyalty or fealty. Her loyalty may be to justice itself!

 

When I was talking to a friend of mine about this deck, and we were looking through the cards together, she said that the floating feather suggested protection, to her - whatever animal that feather came from knew that it was safe with this faerie, that she would not let anything happen to it. I thought that was a rather lovely bit of interpretation, and it suggests a gentle side to this warrior maiden.

[GreenFaerie]

Justice at 11

 

This is my last one! (I think, anyway. :) ) This is the Standing Stone card from the Green Witch Tarot. I think it is the only Justice card I have seen that has no human figures in it at all. It still has the scales etched into the rock, and stone itself is a pretty impartial and unwavering material - it will wear down, but it takes terrific force to move it. A standing stone like this might erode over time - but it is just as likely to be in the same spot hundreds of years from now, like the pillars at Stonehenge.

 

I don't have the companion book in easy reach at the moment, but I believe Ann Moura says something in there about justice also being a communal endeavor. One could see the clearing in this card as representing a village green or a gathering place - somewhere people gather in order to reach a mutually beneficial and fair decision. In that sense, even though there are no human figures in this card, there is a human feel to it - someone had to place that stone and carve the symbols into it, and justice as we think of it is a very human concept. Mother Nature is rarely fair or just or forgiving in the ways that we like to think justice can be - all you have to do is look at the number of animals that starve or the magnitude of natural disasters to see that. (Which is not to say that Mother Nature isn't absolutely balanced in her own way, but that what we consider fair and merciful as humans is not always Mother Nature's fair and merciful.)

 

One final note - the circle of rocks in this picture also suggest sitting, and contemplation, rather than immediate action and/or violence. And the circle keeps everyone on the same level - no one is sitting higher or lower in this communal space; judgement is delivered on a level field, for each and every person.

[Rose Lalonde]

I wanted  to create a separate posts about this, apart from the logistical questions. Does anyone know the history of the debate over where Strength and Justice belong? I know this is a long-standing argument, but how did it start? Why do some people feel that Justice belongs at 8, and Strength at 11? Is there any numerical significance involved? For me, having Strength at 8 makes sense because a sideways 8 is the infinity symbol, which of course is an endless kind of strength. And having Justice at 11 also makes sense to me because the two 1s in 11 are parallel and equal, like the scales. But I don't know the argument for the cards being the other way, and I would love to know.

 

The change the Golden Dawn and Waite made to the earlier TdM order comes down to astrology - specifically when Leo and Libra fall during the year, since Strength often has a lion and seems a match for Leo, while Justice has generally had scales making it a good fit for Libra.

 

The early tarots (once they numbered cards) usually had Justice at 8 and Strength at 11, but that would have associated the Golden Dawn deck's Strength with Libra and Justice with Leo. Not so great. So the GD (and then later, GD member Waite), switched the order to Strength at 8 and Justice at 11 so that it would work with their astrological associations.

 

They make a good case, if you associate astrology with tarot, and you associate it in the same way that they did. Some deck creators don't, so for them they feel no need to go along with the switch the GD and RWS made to accommodate it. 

 

That's probably oversimplified, but basically is the gist.

 

To complicate things you can add in why Crowley (also a GD member) switched the Thoth back to TdM order even though he associates astrology in much the same way as the GD and RWS, but that's just a whole extra can of worms...

 

Funny, I was just listening to the free Fortune's Wheelhouse podcast that talked about this yesterday, which is why this was clear in my head at the moment. :) MM Meleen sums it up briefly at 3 minutes & 20 seconds into the Strength podcast, which is free if it's of interest. At iTunes. Also Stitcher. (And Patreon, where their info posts are as well, but you can't listen at Patreon unless you've pledged $1 or more.)

[GreenFaerie]

I wanted  to create a separate posts about this, apart from the logistical questions. Does anyone know the history of the debate over where Strength and Justice belong? I know this is a long-standing argument, but how did it start? Why do some people feel that Justice belongs at 8, and Strength at 11? Is there any numerical significance involved? For me, having Strength at 8 makes sense because a sideways 8 is the infinity symbol, which of course is an endless kind of strength. And having Justice at 11 also makes sense to me because the two 1s in 11 are parallel and equal, like the scales. But I don't know the argument for the cards being the other way, and I would love to know.

 

The change the Golden Dawn and Waite made to the earlier TdM order comes down to astrology - specifically when Leo and Libra fall during the year, since Strength often has a lion and seems a match for Leo, while Justice has generally had scales making it a good fit for Libra.

 

The early tarots (once they numbered cards) usually had Justice at 8 and Strength at 11, but that would have associated the Golden Dawn deck's Strength with Libra and Justice with Leo. Not so great. So the GD (and then later, GD member Waite), switched the order to Strength at 8 and Justice at 11 so that it would work with their astrological associations.

 

They make a good case, if you associate astrology with tarot, and you associate it in the same way that they did. Some deck creators don't, so for them they feel no need to go along with the switch the GD and RWS made to accommodate it. 

 

That's probably oversimplified, but basically is the gist.

 

To complicate things you can add in why Crowley (also a GD member) switched the Thoth back to TdM order even though he associates astrology in much the same way as the GD and RWS, but that's just a whole extra can of worms...

 

Funny, I was just listening to the free Fortune's Wheelhouse podcast that talked about this yesterday, which is why this was clear in my head at the moment. :) MM Meleen sums it up briefly at 3 minutes & 20 seconds into the Strength podcast, which is free if it's of interest. At iTunes. Also Stitcher. (And Patreon, where their info posts are as well, but you can't listen at Patreon unless you've pledged $1 or more.)

 

Thank you, Rose! This is all so interesting! :) I may have to go hunt up that podcast and learn some more. But it helps just having this little bit, understanding the history of how those two cards were switched and how the debate began.

[Rose Lalonde]

Thank you, Rose! This is all so interesting! :) I may have to go hunt up that podcast and learn some more. But it helps just having this little bit, understanding the history of how those two cards were switched and how the debate began.

 

:)

 

Personally, I don't mind too much about the ordering one way or the other. Of my 3 reading decks, two have Strength 8/Justice 11, and the other is the opposite. If I had to choose, I'd probably go with Strength 8, because I do pretty much read with the GD system at this point, and though I love the Thoth, I'm not yet sold on Crowley's reasons for going back to TdM order.