Le Pape And The Two Fathers In The Tdm

[Marigold]

I see we're allowed to post stuff from Aeclectic. I don't know if whole posts can be copied, but this is one that I made once, and I'd really love to continue this topic if anyone is interested. (I was "Diana" on Aeclectic eons ago). And if I don't copy the whole post, the discussion can't continue as is needs to have the original introduction.

 

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There are two fathers in the Tarot. IIII and V. (Actually, there are three fathers. The Hermit is a father too, but of another nature). See, they even follow each other sequentially.

 

First… we are taught where out limits are. The Emperor teaches us how to behave in society. What the laws are. He teaches us good manners. The teaches us about boundaries and frontiers. He teaches us of material matters.

 

Then Le Pape comes along… and yes, he speaks to us of our freedom. He speaks to us of spiritual matters. He teaches us to rise up out of pure materiality into the realms of the spirit. He shows us that we are not limited by our material boy. He is also our father… but our Spiritual father. Look a the card… can you not see that he is blessing !

 

The Pope is sometimes called The Pontiff. This word stems from the same etymology as the “bridge”. Le Pape is the bridge between the material world and the spiritual world.

 

Fathers love their children. L’Empereur loves us, and so does Le Pape. But they have different functions.

 

On a web-site I had once it was written: “True freedom does not mean making arbitrary and more or less uninformed decisions. Freedom means putting into practice the laws of the universe. This concept is common to all traditional teachings, including the Tarot. The wisdom of the Middle Ages, whih has been transmitted to us through the Tarot of Marseilles, was “Servire Deo, Libertas”.”

 

Le Pape is the Arcanum that holds this promise in the palm of its hand.

 

5 is the number of Man (see Da Vinci’s famous painting).

 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Marigold
spelling

[Flaxen]

Nice to see this discussion started here. You were active before I joined AT but I used to enjoy reading your old posts. 

 

The concept of two fathers here makes sense to me. The worldly one who helps us navigate society’s rule and the spiritual one who guides us with the shaping of our  souls. Would you see the Pape as the compassionate father - willing to forgive our trespasses - while the Emperor is the stern disciplinarian?

 

It’s also interesting to me that one of the vehicles of the father’s teachings - as Pape- is through the mother in the form of the Church.

[Marigold]

Ah yes. Well put, Flaxen. Worldy one and Spiritual one. I would assume that the Pape is compassionate and willing to forgive our errors and trespasses. What loving father wouldn't? Do you see the Emperor as a disciplinarian ? I suppose in a way he is. Or perhaps the teacher of discipline.

 

If we go into theology here (and the Tarot of Marseilles is full of theology due to the era in which it was designed), perhaps the Emperor would represent the Mosaic law (do not kill, do not steal, do not covet your neighbour's house, etc.), and the Pape the new law of the New Testament, i.e. "Love your neighbour as yourself". From discipline to love.

 

There's always a constant evolution going on in the Tarot. Always higher and higher as we go along on the journey of initiation.

 

I didn't remember that the Church was considered as female. Interesting fact to add to this thread. What would the church have meant to these people who designed and used the Tarot ? They were probably considered pretty heretical by the powers at the time (even today, the Tarot is deeply frowned on by churches I believe). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Flaxen]

11 hours ago, Marigold said:

Do you see the Emperor as a disciplinarian ? I suppose in a way he is. Or perhaps the teacher of discipline.

Yes, a teacher of discipline is probably a better way of putting it. Certainly someone who would enforce the social boundaries around what is/isn’t acceptable.

 

11 hours ago, Marigold said:

What would the church have meant to these people who designed and used the Tarot ? 

I suppose we can’t really know for sure. Society was certainly much more homogenous then. There weren’t many alternatives to Christianity. Also, the culture would have had a high visual literacy - the depictions in tarot were likely based on concepts/ideas which were very familiar. Churches before the Reformation were highly painted and full of visual imagery to help lay people understand Christian teachings. 

 

What the card makers intended is also interesting. Then, as now, there would also have been people who were critical of  Church teachings and the hypocrisy. Perhaps some of them intended to make a political statement with their creation. I’m thinking of the Vandenborre with its replacement of Le Pape with Bacchus.

[Guest D76]

14 hours ago, Flaxen said:

 

 

Мне также интересно, что один из проводников учения отца - как Папе - через мать в форме Церкви.

One of the versions says that №2 Popess is the personification of the Catholic Church. Allegory of the Church.

In many images, the "allergory of the church" is painted the same way as the Popess in Tarot (looks like). 

[Marigold]

55 minutes ago, D76 said:

One of the versions says that №2 Popess is the personification of the Catholic Church. Allegory of the Church.

In many images, the "allergory of the church" is painted the same way as the Popess in Tarot (looks like). 

Some think the Papesse represents the Virgin mother. Mary for the Christians in that case. But I think it's more universal, i.e. she represents the Sacred or Divine Feminine.  

[Guest D76]

41 minutes ago, Marigold said:

Некоторые думают, что Папессе представляет Деву-мать. Мария для христиан в таком случае. 

Yes, and the Virgin Mary too.

+

 

3) Abbess : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbess

4) Fides (Faith) virtue

5) The spirit of papacy

6) papacy caricature

7) Pope Joan (Ioannes Anglicus) aka Popess Joan

8/ fake (nothing...just like a parody of hypothetical  „pope’s wife”).

Edited May 17, 2019 by D76

[Marigold]

I was thinking this morning that the Emperor would surely also be very benevolent. He shares his wealth and all that he has willingly with all his subjects.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Marigold

[_R_]

It is quite likely that the Emperor and Pope - in the "real world" as in the Tarot - would have been understood, at the time of the inception of the Tarot - along the lines expounded by Dante, in his treatise 'De Monarchia' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Monarchia). The entire work is available in English translation, here: https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/alighieri-de-monarchia

 

Also, hello Diana, I remember your informative posts from AeT, way back when, although I did not post at the time. I seem to recall you had a fondness for Van Rijnberk's work.

[katrinka]

I don't really see people in positions of high authority as fathers.
The best of them can be somewhat benevolent, and look out for their people in a vague, impersonal kind of way, i.e. take taxes or tithes, and actually give something back, like charity or infrastructure. But even then, it's impersonal and horribly inadequate.

Has any Pope ever purged the Church of molesters? And I won't even start on rulers and presidents.
I don't see the Emperor as Pol Pot, or the Pope as Jim Jones. But they're not fathers, either, at least not to us. Just neutral, and in a lot of ways, useless. Card-wise, the Emperor is a good natured and expansive family man (legs crossed in a figure 4 Jupiter glyph), but if you're not in his circle, that doesn't apply to you.

A good father provides for his children and is concerned for their welfare. He'd put his life on the line for them. You don't see that happening with world leaders.
These guys are at 4 and 5. Low in the series, not very advanced or evolved. Yes, they can run a big organization, and that takes certain abilities. But it's mostly self aggrandizement and fawning groupies at this stage.
Sorry. Twas ever thus.

[devin]

As a small 'd' democrat with occasional anarchist leanings, I rather dislike the implications of associating the Emperor and Pope with fatherly benevolence.

 

So, to this end, I focus on the degree of influence which both titles hold and the masculine nature of the cards/positions. In readings, I find they cards usually represent men of importance within the querent's life / situation under scrutiny. With their exact nature and whether or not they're benevolent or malevolent dictated by surrounding cards / the context of the question.

 

In fact, through personal experience, I'm very close to classifying the Emperor as functioning purely as a neutral male significator card. The Pope on the other hand, I find has a leaning towards matters of guidance, education, etc. (Usually associated with an actual human, but sometimes in a generic sense).

 

So, there.

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by devin

[Marigold]

23 hours ago, devin said:

As a small 'd' democrat with occasional anarchist leanings, I rather dislike the implications of associating the Emperor and Pope with fatherly benevolence.

 

 

 

 

Well, I do hope that you have more than just occasional anarchist leanings !! 

 

And I realise that my original post could seem horribly patriarchal if viewed from that perspective. But I really didn't mean it to be so. 

 

The "Father" within (and the Tarot speaks to us of what is already within us) is neither male nor female. It just is as it is. The Emperor and Pope are just symbols of a source of wisdom and guidance. Even Jesus, when he spoke of what he called the "Father within" wasn't referring to a male figure of any kind.

 

In readings, I've rarely myself seen them to point to a male person in particular, perhaps on a few occasions but nothing noticeable. For instance, the Pope, when I did a lot of readings for people at one time, often came up in health readings. Representing their health practitioner or their need to go and see a doctor double quick instead of hanging around in a tarot reader's office.  

 

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Marigold

[Marigold]

On 5/31/2019 at 7:09 AM, _R_ said:

It is quite likely that the Emperor and Pope - in the "real world" as in the Tarot - would have been understood, at the time of the inception of the Tarot - along the lines expounded by Dante, in his treatise 'De Monarchia' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Monarchia). The entire work is available in English translation, here: https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/alighieri-de-monarchia

 

Also, hello Diana, I remember your informative posts from AeT, way back when, although I did not post at the time. I seem to recall you had a fondness for Van Rijnberk's work.

Hello _R_ : Ah, you're quite right I'm sure about Dante. Thanks for this interesting and important info ! 

 

Goodness, you do have a good memory. I was indeed very fond of Van Rijnberk, but had completely forgotten about this. I must have separated myself for some reason from the book a long time ago, and you have just reminded me of what I recall to have been a fascinating journey through the Tarot.

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Marigold

[Marigold]

On 5/31/2019 at 10:38 AM, katrinka said:

These guys are at 4 and 5. Low in the series, not very advanced or evolved. Yes, they can run a big organization, and that takes certain abilities. But it's mostly self aggrandizement and fawning groupies at this stage.
Sorry. Twas ever thus.

Yes. Of course. You're quite right. Really. Nasty people they can be, these figures of authority. 

 

But also no. Can numbers be hierarchisised (is that a word?) in the Tarot? Doesn't seem like that to me. Whether it's 1 or 21 or 78.

[katrinka]

They kind of are hierarchisised in the Tarot, it seems to be built in. You have this mountebank, then worldly authorities, eventually coming to the celestials at 17, then Judgement and the World. (People disagree about where to stick the Fool, of course.) And the pips - you generally start something, make some minor progress, something comes along and knocks it off balance, you set it right, etc., eventually taking it as far as you can.

I don't really subscribe to that Fool's Journey stuff, but there's a definite progression going on there. And the authority figures are near the bottom, thinking they've made these ultimate achievements but not really knowing much at all yet. TdM has a history as a gaming deck used in taverns, etc., and people who frequent such places aren't above a bit of mocking. You can see a sly humor and irony at play. 😉

[Marigold]

7 minutes ago, katrinka said:

They kind of are hierarchisised in the Tarot, it seems to be built in. You have this mountebank, then worldly authorities, eventually coming to the celestials at 17, then Judgement and the World. (People disagree about where to stick the Fool, of course.) And the pips - you generally start something, make some minor progress, something comes along and knocks it off balance, you set it right, etc., eventually taking it as far as you can.

I don't really subscribe to that Fool's Journey stuff, but there's a definite progression going on there. And the authority figures are near the bottom, thinking they've made these ultimate achievements but not really knowing much at all yet. TdM has a history as a gaming deck used in taverns, etc., and people who frequent such places aren't above a bit of mocking. You can see a sly humor and irony at play. 😉

Very true, Katrinka. I think I was just splitting hairs for the sake of splitting hairs or something.

 

Oh, don't get me started on the so-called Fool's journey. I'll be ranting and raving all night here if I start. It's been the Bateleur's Journey for me always. Always and no argument, and there have been many, has ever been able to shake this conviction. Right from the moment I saw a TdM for the very first time. I cannot see how it can be anything else... (but I have a feeling you'll have something to say also about this!!!) 🕵️‍♀️

 

[_R_]

10 hours ago, Marigold said:

Hello _R_ : Ah, you're quite right I'm sure about Dante. Thanks for this interesting and important info ! 

 

Goodness, you do have a good memory. I was indeed very fond of Van Rijnberk, but had completely forgotten about this. I must have separated myself for some reason from the book a long time ago, and you have just reminded me of what I recall to have been a fascinating journey through the Tarot.

 

This stuck in my mind as I found Van Rijnberk's work one of the most comprehensive at the time, and there were not many people on the English-language tarot forums who were conversant with the French Tarot classics...

[devin]

 

On 6/1/2019 at 5:01 PM, Marigold said:

Well, I do hope that you have more than just occasional anarchist leanings !! 

 

And I realise that my original post could seem horribly patriarchal if viewed from that perspective. But I really didn't mean it to be so. 

It wasn't really the patriarchy so much as the assumed benevolence of the positions. 😀 I think the tarot may agree with me to an extent. Check out the wheel of fortune, the only historical versions of the wheel with animals going for a ride à la the TdM I've come across are lamentations on the foolishness / feebleness of the ruling classes.

 

 

With the one exception being this lovely portrayal of Reynard the Fox in ascendancy (or maybe his zenith) as Pope: 

 

 

I also like Katrinka's observation on the humble numerical rank of the figures.

[Flaxen]

@devin, love that Reynard illustration - wish the writing was a bit clearer so I could spend time deciphering it all. 

 

[devin]

On 6/1/2019 at 5:01 PM, Marigold said:

The "Father" within (and the Tarot speaks to us of what is already within us) is neither male nor female. It just is as it is. The Emperor and Pope are just symbols of a source of wisdom and guidance. Even Jesus, when he spoke of what he called the "Father within" wasn't referring to a male figure of any kind.

Sure, I take your points. Still, I'll slightly disagree and say the tarot speaks to us not just of WHAT IS WITHIN US, but, rather, the tarot speaks to us of WHAT IS. I also wouldn't go so far as to class the cards as symbols (something that represents something else) as I think they, at least sometimes, are very directly representative.

 

Perhaps allowing the cards to stand for internal archetypes allows us to contemplate the timeless. By the same token, I think, if we allow the tarot to function as an incarnate and representative map of the everyday..... it allows us to observe the timeless as it moves through time.

 

Now I'm rambling incoherently! 

 

EDIT: One more thing, I know that seeing the world though archetype is a possible and useful approach, but I personally prefer to reverse the direction of flow and see archetype through the world.... if that makes any sense (and I think it probably doesn't). I think it's a strength of taking a fortune-telling based approach: You respect the world for what it is.... before turning it into grist for the archetypal mill.

 

EDIT EDIT: Oh, sorry, I forgot.... if memory serves, J.C. Flornoy saw the emperor as being the archetypal representation of the father and the pope as being the archetypal grandfather.

Edited June 4, 2019 by devin

[devin]

13 minutes ago, Flaxen said:

@devin, love that Reynard illustration - wish the writing was a bit clearer so I could spend time deciphering it all. 

 

Ditto. I've looked before but to no avail. 😞 

[Flaxen]

18 minutes ago, devin said:

EDIT: One more thing, I know that seeing the world though archetype is a possible and useful approach, but I personally prefer to reverse the direction of flow and see archetype through the world.... if that makes any sense (and I think it probably doesn't). I think it's a strength of taking a fortune-telling based approach: You respect the world for what it is.... before turning it into grist for the archetypal mill.

I think this is a really useful way to approach the TdM. 

Not quite the same thing but when I was studying the qabalah as used by the GD, the extensive correspondences between the everyday objects and tarot/qabalah was brought to the forefront. I’d find myself walking around thinking about the things around me and how they were represented by the tarot. 

[devin]

35 minutes ago, Flaxen said:

I think this is a really useful way to approach the TdM. 

Not quite the same thing but when I was studying the qabalah as used by the GD, the extensive correspondences between the everyday objects and tarot/qabalah was brought to the forefront. I’d find myself walking around thinking about the things around me and how they were represented by the tarot. 

Well, at least I know I made a sort of sense! 🙂 Thanks for sharing your insight,.

[testpattern]

When I read the Emperor, I always think of Jon Polito's complaint in Miller's Crossing: "Runnin' t'ings." It always seems to me to be about outward aspects of rulership.