Yet another independent Rider Waite

[katrinka]

I have some small gripes: the way the images are cropped, the scanner line on the left side that many cards show (all of the majors and a good many of the minors. I cannot see the line in your pictures, so I'm wondering if it's just my copy.) But it's hard to find too many objections to a deck this cute, with linen cardstock, at this price point.

 

Mine doesn't have the line, I just checked all the cards. That seems to be a Gamecrafter thing, it happened with the Game of Hope deck I mentioned earlier. Most were fine. Some peoples' copies were cut a bit off-center. A few were really bad, and IIRC, Gamecrafter replaced the ones people complained about. I'd email them and attach a couple of photos - who knows, they might send you a freebie.  ;)

 

EmpyreanKnight, I wouldn't wait long if I were you, as this is a very small run, and besides I'm afraid that the far-reaching wand of You Know Who could pull an Avada Kedavra on it at any minute --like it happened with the Urania deck and the blink-and-you-missed-it Lo Scarabeo one. Just my two cents.

 

Ditto that, just to be safe.

Though the King of Far-Reaching Wands tends to go after decks from bigger publishers, rather than these little indie things. You just never know. I'd grab it now.

 

He put the kibosh on the LS one? Was that the one with the deep blues?

 

 

[FLizarraga]

I have some small gripes: the way the images are cropped, the scanner line on the left side that many cards show (all of the majors and a good many of the minors. I cannot see the line in your pictures, so I'm wondering if it's just my copy.) But it's hard to find too many objections to a deck this cute, with linen cardstock, at this price point.

 

Mine doesn't have the line, I just checked all the cards. That seems to be a Gamecrafter thing, it happened with the Game of Hope deck I mentioned earlier. Most were fine. Some peoples' copies were cut a bit off-center. A few were really bad, and IIRC, Gamecrafter replaced the ones people complained about. I'd email them and attach a couple of photos - who knows, they might send you a freebie.  ;)

 

EmpyreanKnight, I wouldn't wait long if I were you, as this is a very small run, and besides I'm afraid that the far-reaching wand of You Know Who could pull an Avada Kedavra on it at any minute --like it happened with the Urania deck and the blink-and-you-missed-it Lo Scarabeo one. Just my two cents.

 

Ditto that, just to be safe.

Though the King of Far-Reaching Wands tends to go after decks from bigger publishers, rather than these little indie things. You just never know. I'd grab it now.

 

He put the kibosh on the LS one? Was that the one with the deep blues?

 

 

Thanks for the tip! I will write GC and see what happens. I am tempted to get a second copy such as it is, so a better AND free one sounds even more appealing...  ;)

 

 

IIRC, the LS one was the first iteration of this one: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/rider-waite-scarabeo/

 

 

Mere days or weeks after release, it was mysteriously replaced by a redrawing. I tried to purchase it twice, and ended up with two copies of the re-drawn version, as did others. Only a few people in AT were able to score the original --LeFanu and Agviz among them, I seem to remember.

[katrinka]

On 10/15/2017 at 12:33 PM, FLizarraga said:

Thanks for the tip! I will write GC and see what happens. I am tempted to get a second copy such as it is, so a better AND free one sounds even more appealing...  😉

 

 

IIRC, the LS one was the first iteration of this one: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/rider-waite-scarabeo/

 

 

Mere days or weeks after release, it was mysteriously replaced by a redrawing. I tried to purchase it twice, and ended up with two copies of the re-drawn version, as did others. Only a few people in AT were able to score the original --LeFanu and Agviz among them, I seem to remember.

 

I'm thinking of a different one. There was an image on Facebook awhile back - the 2 of Swords from an upcoming deck. It wasn't redrawn, just recolored. It was the 2 of Swords IIRC, and it had deep, intense blues and a kind of luminosity around the crescent moon. More atmospheric than the usual flat colors.

 

I guess LS is going to keep trying, lol.

Edited June 16, 2023 by katrinka

[FLizarraga]

Yes, katrinka, that's the one. It popped up briefly and then disappeared, and the redrawn one took its place.

[katrinka]

Meh. All of this litigiousness is starting to remind me of the Coca Cola Company.  :(

 

It almost makes me want to buy up every indie RWS I can find (if I could just get past that Eye of Horus on a third eye chakra on a nebula.  :-\ )

 

Something I wonder about is how did he happen to get the copyright in the first place? Did he buy it from University Books, or did they just happen to fold around the same time that USG started publishing RWS?

 

 

 

[gregory]

He bought the copyright from Rider, AFAIK. Which is fair enough - but it should have expired by now and it seems he will do anything to hang on to it. That said - I believe reall's is taken from a different genuinely old copy, so she may be safe. Most of the knockoffs DID use the USG one to knock their copies off from ;)

[Tarot dance]

This caught my eye: https://www.etsy.com/listing/555344785/pams-vintage-tarot-deck

\

....Gregory, I saw you had last posted in this thread....and being the nosy person i am wanted to know what you were discussing,....& I am so glad I did....

 

...thank you for those that posted this info and link....I am going to order it now ......it looks like it will be a sweet little deck...IT'S still on GameCrafters for $19.99

 

 

Also thank you for the amazon link to the 1910 Rider Tarot Revived added it to my amazon wish list...it's only $12.99 & if you have amazon prime (I love amazon prime) the shipping is free and it arrives 2 days later....

 

 

thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread...i really enjoyed it....& discovered not 1 but 2 decks I had no knowledge of...

 

 

that is why I love these forums...the exchange of ideas & information....

[Tarot dance]

 

....the LS one was the first iteration of this one: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/rider-waite-scarabeo/

 

] Only a few people in AT were able to score the original --LeFanu and Agviz among them, I seem to remember.

 

...I bought this deck when it first  became available (I think)....how do i find out if I have an original or the redrawn version?

 

...esquiring minds want to know.... :) ;D :) :D

 

 

[katrinka]

He bought the copyright from Rider, AFAIK. Which is fair enough - but it should have expired by now and it seems he will do anything to hang on to it. That said - I believe reall's is taken from a different genuinely old copy, so she may be safe. Most of the knockoffs DID use the USG one to knock their copies off from ;)

 

I just remembered this page. This is interesting: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/faq.htm#US1909

 

US Games' founder and CEO, a Mr. Kaplan, first obtained a deck of the RWS cards in 1968 at the Nuremberg Toy Fair. He purchased the deck, and started to sell reproductions of it, selling 200,000 in the first year of business alone. Today US Games sells a product line which includes over 600 varieties of playing cards, with the RWS Tarot being its core holding.

 

Q. What is the US copyright status of the RWS and the PKT?

 

A. The RWS cards and the Pictorial Key to the Tarot are in the public domain in the United States, any other statements notwithstanding.

 

Q. What is the EU or UK copyright status of a work published in 1909?

 

A. The date of publication is irrelevant. According to current EU and UK copyright law, the work passes into the public domain 70 years after the death of the author. This is retroactive, in other words, works previously in the public domain when the term was life + 50 had their copyrights extended.

 

Q. What is the EU or UK copyright status of the RWS and PKT?

 

A. Since Smith died in 1951, the RWS deck would not be public domain in the EU and UK until 2021 if she was acknowledged as the author of the work. However, apparently she did this as a 'work for hire', which means that they will be in the public domain in 2012, the 70th year after Waite's death. Since Waite died in 1942, the Pictorial Key to the Tarot won't be in the public domain in the EU and UK until 2012.

 

For the many, many years that the deck existed, it was known as "the Waite deck", "the Rider pack", or similar. It's only in recent years that there's been a push (among the general population) to give Miss Colman-Smith some much-needed recognition, hence the "RWS" moniker.

 

What's odd is the Centennial. It goes a step further and calls it the SMITH-Waite Centennial, and you can get it in a kit with artwork and Pixie-this and Pixie-that. I don't think that's purely an altruistic attempt to correct a past wrong (and is it really corrected if Waite is the one being marginalized this time? Why should either of them be marginalized?) It looks like they were trying to build some kind of precedent to keep it out of the public domain in the EU and UK for a few more years. But that would only work until 2021.

 

It says that what's actually copyrighted is the backs, and the design of the boxes:

 

Q. My US Games deck says "Copyright 1971". What does this refer to, if the deck was published in 1909?

 

A. In order to claim a new copyright on public domain material, you need to demonstrate substantial amounts of creative additions to a work. And then the copyright only applies to your changes.

 

In 1971, US Games filed a copyright claim at the US Copyright office as follows:

 

 

 

Registration Number: VA-101-718

Title: The Rider tarot deck / the original and only authorized ed. of the famous 78-card tarot deck / designed by Pamela Colman Smith under the direction of Arthur Edward Waite.

Description: 78 col. prints; cards in box.

Claimant: acU. S. Games Systems, Inc.

Created: 1971

Published: 22Dec71

Registered: 11Jun82

Author on Application: artwork & text on cards & box: U. S. Games Systems, Inc., employer for hire.

Previous Related Version: Appl. identifies tarot card designs as preexisting material.

Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: "lithographic reproduction of designs & text on tarot cards, artwork & text on box."

Special Codes: 5/K

 

 

 

Note that this application only applies to 'New Matter'. This is copyright terminology which means anything added to a preexisting work. In this case US Games claims a copyright on everything except for the actual RWS images. Essentially this means their designs on the back of the deck and the box.

 

It is clear that, with minor exceptions, US Games' card face artwork is a direct copy of the original RWS cards. This applies both to the line art and the coloring of the cards. So anyone using the actual images on the card faces in the US is, in my opinion, in the clear so far as copyrights are concerned at this point in time.

 

US Games can legally pursue anyone who copies the design of their box, the card backs and so on, and will be able to do so far into the middle of the 21st century. However, it does not cover the actual card artwork, in my opinion, as the application clearly states.

 

And there is this:

 

I know of one instance where a person who sells Tarot software drew his own electronic images (in 1991, before scanners were widely available) based on the RWS Tarot. These images are not in the slightest way a reproduction of the Pamela Coleman Smith deck in the traditional sense, but a rendering based on the original artwork. US Games is currently badgering this person to pay them a licensing fee.

 

So, the picture I'm getting, in a nutshell:

• The deck is in the public domain.
  
• If you do anything remotely like a RWS deck - even if it isn't a RWS - there's a chance that USG will send you a threatening letter.
  
• Nobody had ever actually been dragged to court over this.
  

 

It looks to me like it's all intimidation.

 

[FLizarraga]

 

....the LS one was the first iteration of this one: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/rider-waite-scarabeo/

 

] Only a few people in AT were able to score the original --LeFanu and Agviz among them, I seem to remember.

 

...I bought this deck when it first  became available (I think)....how do i find out if I have an original or the redrawn version?

 

...esquiring minds want to know.... :) ;D :) :D

 

 

Compare it to any other RWS deck you own --and I do mean Pixie's art, not clones. The differences will become apparent immediately.

 

The boxes and backs are identical.

[FLizarraga]

It looks to me like it's all intimidation.

 

 

It is, plain and simple. But it has worked, because they have the money to pay for matters in court to be dragged for years and years and years.

[katrinka]

It looks to me like it's all intimidation.

 

 

It is, plain and simple. But it has worked, because they have the money to pay for matters in court to be dragged for years and years and years.

 

Dragging things out hurts the people who are suing. If I got crippled up at my job and I tried to sue, they'd just drag it out until my resources were depleted, because they're a corporation and they can. But in this case, the plaintiff would be USG. What if everybody making the decks (in different countries, no less) just ignored the letters? And how would this work in the Netherlands? In the Ukraine? Thailand?

Let USG pay all those filing fees and whatnot. If they can get viable court orders for everybody to stop selling decks, stop. If not (and it IS in the public domain) they just put a big dent in their wallet for nothing.

 

 

[FLizarraga]

It looks to me like it's all intimidation.

 

 

It is, plain and simple. But it has worked, because they have the money to pay for matters in court to be dragged for years and years and years.

 

Dragging things out hurts the people who are suing. If I got crippled up at my job and I tried to sue, they'd just drag it out until my resources were depleted, because they're a corporation and they can. But in this case, the plaintiff would be USG. What if everybody making the decks (in different countries, no less) just ignored the letters? And how would this work in the Netherlands? In the Ukraine? Thailand?

Let USG pay all those filing fees and whatnot. If they can get viable court orders for everybody to stop selling decks, stop. If not (and it IS in the public domain) they just put a big dent in their wallet for nothing.

 

 

Oh, I'm sold, dear. We'd have to convince Lo Scarabeo and AGMüller and so on.

 

 

Or maybe they know something we don't. Either way, that's the state of affairs.

[gregory]

 

....the LS one was the first iteration of this one: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/rider-waite-scarabeo/

 

] Only a few people in AT were able to score the original --LeFanu and Agviz among them, I seem to remember.

 

...I bought this deck when it first  became available (I think)....how do i find out if I have an original or the redrawn version?

 

...esquiring minds want to know.... :) ;D :) :D

 

 

Compare it to any other RWS deck you own --and I do mean Pixie's art, not clones. The differences will become apparent immediately.

 

The boxes and backs are identical.

If the deck referred to is the lo scarabeo one - no. The backs of the lovely one are blue roses, and the other  red and black - and the images on the second are very fuzzy. I do have both.

[FLizarraga]

 

....the LS one was the first iteration of this one: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/rider-waite-scarabeo/

 

] Only a few people in AT were able to score the original --LeFanu and Agviz among them, I seem to remember.

 

...I bought this deck when it first  became available (I think)....how do i find out if I have an original or the redrawn version?

 

...esquiring minds want to know.... :) ;D :) :D

 

 

Compare it to any other RWS deck you own --and I do mean Pixie's art, not clones. The differences will become apparent immediately.

 

The boxes and backs are identical.

If the deck referred to is the lo scarabeo one - no. The backs of the lovely one are blue roses, and the other  red and black - and the images on the second are very fuzzy. I do have both.

 

 

I didn't know about the backs, as I could only find the redrawn one --twice!  ::)

 

 

As for the images, I wouldn't describe them as fuzzy, though I see what you mean. The effect for me is as if someone had traced over Pixie's art. A little odd, I'd say.