Making Sense of The Pips In Divination

[Barleywine]

I've been slowly coming to a new understanding of the TdM pips in divination, and have had a few interesting conversations with Lee Bursten on the subject. Here is the first of a set of 16 or 17 posts. I covered the Coins in detail in that series and the rest of the suits more generically. There is a tabulation in one post that you may find useful.

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2019/05/24/over-under-sideways-down/

[Flaxen]

Thanks for sharing this here, @Barleywine. 

I enjoyed watching Tarology some years ago and began building those visual elements into my readings in a fluid way. I like the way you approach them with ‘storytelling flair’. 

 

There is such a richness to reading with the TdM.

 

 

[Saturn Celeste]

22 hours ago, Barleywine said:

I've been slowly coming to a new understanding of the TdM pips in divination, and have had a few interesting conversations with Lee Bursten on the subject. Here is the first of a set of 16 or 17 posts. I covered the Coins in detail in that series and the rest of the suits more generically. There is a tabulation in one post that you may find useful.

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2019/05/24/over-under-sideways-down/

We have a few readers here that use the TdM and their readings are very interesting!  They both bring a lot of insight into the pips.  I started to read on the 1JJSwiss but never had the insights that these readers do.

[Barleywine]

17 minutes ago, Saturn Celeste said:

We have a few readers here that use the TdM and their readings are very interesting!  They both bring a lot of insight into the pips.  I started to read on the 1JJSwiss but never had the insights that these readers do.

I've read everything published in English that I can get my hands on and didn't find a whole lot of inspiration in it regarding the pip cards. Those who can read French apparently have a big advantage. I still have Scion's material somewhere and need to dig it out.

[Saturn Celeste]

Any insights you want to bring on the TdM, please do!  I've been having an urge to give my Marseille decks a go again.

[Guest]

On 6/22/2019 at 2:00 AM, Barleywine said:

I've been slowly coming to a new understanding of the TdM pips in divination, and have had a few interesting conversations with Lee Bursten on the subject. Here is the first of a set of 16 or 17 posts. I covered the Coins in detail in that series and the rest of the suits more generically. There is a tabulation in one post that you may find useful.

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2019/05/24/over-under-sideways-down/

Beautiful article as always, Barleywine. 

 

Andy B.

[Barleywine]

31 minutes ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Beautiful article as always, Barleywine. 

 

Andy B.

Andy! Good to see you. I greatly appreciated your insights and generous mentoring during our conversations back on AT. Thanks for the compliment.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Barleywine

[Eric13]

This is actually pretty good. There's thoughts in here about the flowers Ive never seen before. Very helpful. 

[Barleywine]

Thanks! I can't claim total originality as far as trying to decipher the decorative embellishments in the cards. Yoav Ben-Dov was pretty incisive about trying to extract meaning from them, and I've read his book twice now. But I tried to back away from being too clinical about it because I'm trying to fashion a narrative palette that fosters "story-telling flair."

[Painterspoon]

I'm just new to this forum so I'm going to be posting a bit on old threads 🙂

 

Thank you so much for posting such great info on the pips. I have the CBD Marseille and Yoav Ben-Dov's books, but I really like the way you addressed the pips. I will be taking notes from you for sure the next time I pull out that deck. Great imagery!

[pacificwaters]

I chanced upon this thread as I was aimlessly wandering on the forum today 🙂

 

And well, the article surely made fine reading.I liked the reading the ramblings woven around the pips, with the ones around the swords and the deniers being the best of the lot. The target like fixation in the 8 and 10 of batons, reminds me of my own self likening it to a safety net. 

 

However my question is around the two of cups.. In the Pierre Madenie TdM that I have the image is strikingly similar to the one in your blog. What do you make of the huge patch underground. The Pierre Madenie has root like structure here. Next what is your take on the fishes? They do not appear later in the cups element!!!

[Barleywine]

On 4/6/2020 at 10:22 AM, pacificwaters said:

I chanced upon this thread as I was aimlessly wandering on the forum today 🙂

 

And well, the article surely made fine reading.I liked the reading the ramblings woven around the pips, with the ones around the swords and the deniers being the best of the lot. The target like fixation in the 8 and 10 of batons, reminds me of my own self likening it to a safety net. 

 

However my question is around the two of cups.. In the Pierre Madenie TdM that I have the image is strikingly similar to the one in your blog. What do you make of the huge patch underground. The Pierre Madenie has root like structure here. Next what is your take on the fishes? They do not appear later in the cups element!!!

I recall reading somewhere that the fish are actually dolphins and they have to do with "memory." Perhaps shared memories are nourishing that central blossom at the top. The device at the bottom looks like a shield, and it may be there just for heraldic purposes with no implied interpretive value.

[_R_]

The figures on the II of Cups are indeed very similar to the heraldic dolphin, see for instance, the coat of arms of Guigues d'Albon, whence 'Dauphin.'

[pacificwaters]

Never even remotely associated the presence of dolphins in a TdM card. Whew..this is interesting!! Thanks!

[Merrick]

Dolphins in the TdM is new to me as well, I love it!

[offramp]

On 6/23/2019 at 1:03 AM, Barleywine said:

I've read everything published in English that I can get my hands on and didn't find a whole lot of inspiration in it regarding the pip cards. Those who can read French apparently have a big advantage. I still have Scion's material somewhere and need to dig it out.

Encouraged by what you wrote I had a look, and indeed the French have scores of books about the Marseilles Tarot. Many of them are cheap.

 

I have bought one, and it is on its way. I have read foreign books in the past on subjects I know a bit about, and because the vocabulary tends to be limited I have managed to follow them.

For example, if the book says...

Quote

La Reine de Baton du Tarot est un personnage dynamique. Cette carte du Tarot dégage une énergie surprenante.

I would know it was about the Queen of Batons from the page in the book. It doesn't take Maurice Chevalier to guess that un personnage dynamique means a dynamic personality.  Less easy is dégage une énergie surprenante which means that the card gives off a surprising energy. One would have to look up the words dégage and surprenante, if you didn't know them.

 

Anyway, the book I have ordered was three quid, so if I can't read it I'll give it to a charity shop!

[katrinka]

I just want to mention that since the TdM is a playing card deck, it's perfectly OK to read them like playing cards.
I find them much clearer that way. Trying to figure out how poetic/psychological/Jodo/EE/etc. meanings would apply to the questions I actually get from people would be a major headache. YMMV, but meanings that center on creative impulses and the like don't cut it for me.

And it's very easy to do, learn the number and suit meanings and take it from there. This is a great resource:
https://artofcartomancy.blogspot.com/

And here is a PDF. Kaph put it out there to share freely, on the condition that he's credited for the work.
http://docshare.tips/download/58bc85e2b6d87fc50d8b4ba9

It's in the Cards (alternate title: It's Written In The Cards) by Leo Louis Martello is an excellent resource. This book is OOP, but well worth the effort it takes to find a copy.

Additionally, Andy sometimes blogs on reading playing cards/Tarot Pips.

And those things are all that's needed.

 

[devin]

Speaking of French material, here is an ongoing English translation of Paul Marteau's exceptionally influential tarot book. It deals with pips:

https://smallcabin.org/le-tarot-de-marseilles-by-paul-marteau/

 

And Camelia Elias's book Marseille Tarot: Towards the Art of Reading outlines a playing card inspired (well, more than inspired, actually) method for reading the pips.

 

Back to the French, here's a great website offering numerous translations showcasing a variety of Gallic tarological thinking: 

https://traditionaltarot.wordpress.com/

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by devin

[_R_]

It might interest some readers to know that there is now an article (a chapter from an important book, in fact) on the Minor Arcana available in English here.
Although it does not deal explicitly with divination, it does provide a good historical overview of the various symbolic interpretations of the pips.
This is the first of 2 posts on the subject.

[katrinka]

Thanks so much for this!
Shoutout for mentioning Eudes Picard. Although his method may not be the lingua franca these days, it certainly has its merits!

[_R_]

You're welcome. There will be more where that came from next week (from a different author).

Picard's book is one of the few I haven't got, so I can't publish anything by him, but I am told there is an English version coming out soon anyways.

And who knows, maybe someone will do a facsimile of his deck as well in the near future?

If I'm not mistaken (it's been years since I read his book), Picard is also the source of the idea that the trumps represent causes, and the pips effects, an idea which is now fairly standard if only implicitly, in many cartomantic methods. In other words, he clarified the function of clarifiers.

[Decan]

Interesting to know!

[_R_]

A sequel of sorts, another piece on the Minor Arcana by another French hermeticist, has been posted here.