Sybil - Arthur E. Waite's daughter

[Raggydoll]

10 hours ago, gregory said:

Yeah - and remember the e-bay auction where he and LoScarabeo fought to the death over I forget which one - it's a crackle back in a red box; I've met it, but I forget which Pam it is.

I’m thinking the seller got very happy indeed 😛

[Guest]

16 hours ago, gregory said:

Yeah - and remember the e-bay auction where he and LoScarabeo fought to the death over I forget which one - it's a crackle back in a red box; I've met it, but I forget which Pam it is.

Yes! It was a “cracked mud” back deck which is a Pam-A. The A, B thing is confusing but I think that was the first run and came in the red box. 
 

US Games sold off a lot cards and books. I imagine that Kaplan would keep the Smith Waites. However, it’s such a shame these are not preserved in libraries like Jensen’s collections. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I’m thinking the seller got very happy indeed 😛

Definitely lol. 

[gregory]

3 minutes ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Yes! It was a “cracked mud” back deck which is a Pam-A. The A, B thing is confusing but I think that was the first run and came in the red box. 
 

US Games sold off a lot cards and books. I imagine that Kaplan would keep the Smith Waites. However, it’s such a shame these are not preserved in libraries like Jensen’s collections. 

Thank goodness Jensen's went to the University !

[Guest]

7 hours ago, gregory said:

Thank goodness Jensen's went to the University !

Indeed. I do not doubt that Mr. Kaplan has a sincere appreciation for Pamela Colman-Smith and A.E. Waite. But it would be better stored in a university library or museum. 
 

Going back to Sybil if she died intestate then her heirs would be paternal and maternal cousins. If she had a Will could she have bequeathed the rights? I just wonder whether she received the royalties? 

[Raggydoll]

5 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Indeed. I do not doubt that Mr. Kaplan has a sincere appreciation for Pamela Colman-Smith and A.E. Waite. But it would be better stored in a university library or museum. 
 

Going back to Sybil if she died intestate then her heirs would be paternal and maternal cousins. If she had a Will could she have bequeathed the rights? I just wonder whether she received the royalties? 

In those records I found it said “spinster by independent means”. I guess it basically just means she didn’t need benefits because she was supporting herself, but surely it could mean that she was living off royalties? I wonder if Stuart would ever spill the beans on that. Maybe to Gregory he will 😊

[Marigold]

10 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Indeed. I do not doubt that Mr. Kaplan has a sincere appreciation for Pamela Colman-Smith and A.E. Waite. But it would be better stored in a university library or museum. 
 

Going back to Sybil if she died intestate then her heirs would be paternal and maternal cousins. If she had a Will could she have bequeathed the rights? I just wonder whether she received the royalties? 

Well maybe he does have a sincere appreciation. I would think he should, he's made quite a little nest egg I imagine out of them.  And of course, all these things should be in a public domain, not hidden somewhere in someone's personal collection. I do hope that he has taken steps to rectify this and that a will and instructions have been made which will benefit the whole tarot world and not just his descendants and their fortunes. 

 

I also want to know about royalties and things. There's too much secrecy around all this. If it's true that Kaplan got a deck from Waite's daughter, we should know about this. It should be part of Tarot history. 

 

Gregory mentioned that Kaplan is getting on in years. I do hope he's made the right decisions for what happens after his demise. But I'm not holding my breath. Does this guy have children ? Are they involved in his business ?

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Marigold

[_R_]

Kaplan has auctioned off a significant amount of his collection already, if this has not already been noted, his justification being that such things are better off reentering the market, as it were, than remaining in one collection, private or public. One may choose to agree or disagree with the sentiment.

[gregory]

There MAY be children:

 

https://clustrmaps.com/person/Kaplan-7lfh1r 

 

But only he knows if they would want to carry on.

[Marigold]

1 hour ago, _R_ said:

Kaplan has auctioned off a significant amount of his collection already, if this has not already been noted, his justification being that such things are better off reentering the market, as it were, than remaining in one collection, private or public. One may choose to agree or disagree with the sentiment.

Well, that's how capitalists view the world.  And of course, this also helps keep the important stuff from the public and in private hands. Those of the elite. Because only the elite can afford to buy such items on auction. 

 

Thank god he didn't get hold of any original TdM cards. They'd probably not be in a museum but in someone's safe in their fancy home. Taken out as trophies to impress their crowd. 

[gregory]

I think he probably did/does own some. His collection did at its height have  over 20,000 items, and used to front exhibitions of it all. I could look in his encyclopedia where it shows which are part of his collection.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Marigold said:

Well maybe he does have a sincere appreciation. I would think he should, he's made quite a little nest egg I imagine out of them.  And of course, all these things should be in a public domain, not hidden somewhere in someone's personal collection. I do hope that he has taken steps to rectify this and that a will and instructions have been made which will benefit the whole tarot world and not just his descendants and their fortunes. 

 

I also want to know about royalties and things. There's too much secrecy around all this. If it's true that Kaplan got a deck from Waite's daughter, we should know about this. It should be part of Tarot history. 

 

Gregory mentioned that Kaplan is getting on in years. I do hope he's made the right decisions for what happens after his demise. But I'm not holding my breath. Does this guy have children ? Are they involved in his business ?

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Marigold.     Sadly, Mr. Kaplan is unlikely to bequeath the collection. As _R_ note a vast portion has been auctioned off.

 

Mr. Kaplan holds a large collection of Pamela Colman Smith’s correspondence, books, work, et cetera. When one recalls some of Pixie’s comments on the male dominated publishers it is rather sad. 
 

But it is what it is. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

In those records I found it said “spinster by independent means”. I guess it basically just means she didn’t need benefits because she was supporting herself, but surely it could mean that she was living off royalties? I wonder if Stuart would ever spill the beans on that. Maybe to Gregory he will 😊

Sometimes that term is used when relatives maintain the person. It is used to describe Sybil during Waite’s lifetime. However it’s likely she had some income other than a state pension. 
 

It would be interesting to learn what became of those royalties - especially in light of the copyright arguments. 

[Marigold]

13 minutes ago, leroidetrèfle said:

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Marigold.     Sadly, Mr. Kaplan is unlikely to bequeath the collection. As _R_ note a vast portion has been auctioned off.

 

Mr. Kaplan holds a large collection of Pamela Colman Smith’s correspondence, books, work, et cetera. When one recalls some of Pixie’s comments on the male dominated publishers it is rather sad. 
 

But it is what it is. 

It's not right that the world of Tarot has to resign themselves to the "but it is what it is". I know why you say, this and that's the feeling I get too. I think there would maybe be a way to change this, but it would require a huge effort by some dedicated persons who have money and access to lawyers. I don't see that happening though because who has this time and this knowledge of legal issues.

 

As he's old now and probably won't live much longer I am worried that his descendants who will receive all this stuff are equally capitalistic as he is and won't understand that this legacy belongs to the world and to them.

 

It's very sad. I've never trusted this man - from the very first time I heard about him. 

 

 

[Raggydoll]

I think Stuart should create a digital museum of all the letters, documents, artwork etc related to the RWS. High resolution scans that everyone can view. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Marigold said:

I don't see that happening though because who has this time and this knowledge of legal issues.

 

Sadly, you hit the nail on the head. US Games have taken legal action in the past and courts upheld their “copyright.” The costs are prohibitive.  Mary K Greer told me that this included a European Court. 
 

However, nobody seems to know precisely the reason for the “copyright.” Several individuals (including one who had a legal background) believe the original deck is in the public domain - US Games just own rights to certain photographs, the typeface, backs and boxes. 
 

If Sybil did hold the copyright (which makes sense, if Colman Smith was an artist for hire), then her Will and papers would be interesting. We would then know precisely what agreement was made between Sybil, Rider and Kaplan. 
 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

I think Stuart should create a digital museum of all the letters, documents, artwork etc related to the RWS. High resolution scans that everyone can view. 

It would be wonderful; plus, we might finally get a proper thoroughly researched biography. I know a historian who was interested in writing one, but access to her papers is problematic - unless you’re being published by US Games. 

[gregory]

2 hours ago, Marigold said:

It's not right that the world of Tarot has to resign themselves to the "but it is what it is". I know why you say, this and that's the feeling I get too. I think there would maybe be a way to change this, but it would require a huge effort by some dedicated persons who have money and access to lawyers. I don't see that happening though because who has this time and this knowledge of legal issues.

 

As he's old now and probably won't live much longer I am worried that his descendants who will receive all this stuff are equally capitalistic as he is and won't understand that this legacy belongs to the world and to them.

 

It's very sad. I've never trusted this man - from the very first time I heard about him. 

I have never seen any particular reason not to trust him (which is not at all the same thing as liking or disliking him - trust is different, and I'm not aware he has ever cheated anyone) and he has done a lot to get tarot into the mainstream. I am mildly irritated by the copyright thing - though also not wild about seeing knickers with Pamela's judgement all over the crotch.... (ebay, about 2 years ago.)

 

However - it is easy to say that his legacy belongs to the world. What exactly would you have him do with it ? Museums aren't as happy to receive as you might think. 
He would probably have trouble finding one to take it on. Adam McLean tried for a long time, and is now selling his stuff, and Frank Jensen only just managed to persuade the university where he lived to take his because of his personal connection with them. (I know this; we were emailing at the time, because I bought some of his leftovers !) Better it go piecemeal to people who will appreciate it than randomly to some library that says yeah OK and then stores it in a damp basement. And not all who buy these things do it for capitalist reasons. I know a guy - not well off at all - who used ALL his savings for a single deck, and doesn't regret it because it is so lovely.

 

Kaplan did at one point have a digital museum of his collection, but it seems to have fallen over.

Edited January 1, 2020 by gregory

[Raggydoll]

50 minutes ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Sadly, you hit the nail on the head. US Games have taken legal action in the past and courts upheld their “copyright.” The costs are prohibitive.  Mary K Greer told me that this included a European Court. 
 

However, nobody seems to know precisely the reason for the “copyright.” Several individuals (including one who had a legal background) believe the original deck is in the public domain - US Games just own rights to certain photographs, the typeface, backs and boxes. 
 

If Sybil did hold the copyright (which makes sense, if Colman Smith was an artist for hire), then her Will and papers would be interesting. We would then know precisely what agreement was made between Sybil, Rider and Kaplan. 
 

You don’t think the original publisher held the copyright? That’s what I was told. And that it ceased when their company quit. I also heard that Stuart recreated printer plates (or cleaned up copies - not sure what they are called) and that it is them he has copyright over. This then means that other people can’t make decks that are identical to his plates. I believe they were created in the 70s, when the copyright started showing up on the cards. So technically speaking even reproductions of a Pam A would not be allowed by others than US games because those images are too similar to his plates. 

[gregory]

As far as I know if you OWN a Pam A, you can scan and use your own images.

[_R_]

Many of the queries with respect to copyright in this thread are answered in the piece I linked to on the first page. After the daughter's death, the rights passed onto the executors of the estate, the Semkens. Copyright does not disappear after a company winds up, although it might not be renewed or enforced.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, _R_ said:

Many of the queries with respect to copyright in this thread are answered in the piece I linked to on the first page. After the daughter's death, the rights passed onto the executors of the estate, the Semkens. Copyright does not disappear after a company winds up, although it might not be renewed or enforced.

Thank you for the links, _R_. Do you believe that it is correct? I ask only as comments made once by Mary K Greer who told me of previous rulings. 

[_R_]

7 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Thank you for the links, _R_. Do you believe that it is correct? I ask only as comments made once by Mary K Greer who told me of previous rulings. 

I think that author’s analysis is essentially correct, yet, it appears that with good lawyers at one’s disposal, there are a number of technicalities which might give pause for thought. I am not aware of these court cases, so perhaps the piece is not up to date on these developments. Hare states that: 

Quote

However, I'm unaware of any instance in which US Games actually attempted to sue anyone for copyright infringement and won. 

Might be opportune to let him know, if details are forthcoming.

[gregory]

truelighth is usually pretty solid and features in this thread:

 

https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=245748&page=6

 

The case referenced is here: U.S. GAMES SYSTEMS, INC. _ Case No. 3_15... _ 20160203b09 _ Leagle.com.pdf

 

I can't find what happened anywhere.

[KW25]

I have been researching Waite's family because I think I have a connection to it.  I cannot find the info easily as I am really not Into ancestry research and I cannot ask anyone about this matter because of personal details related to it.  Does anyone know how I can find a list of AE Waite's ancestors that is easy to follow or any more info about him, his daughter, his relatives, or his wives?  I have no interest in money details.  I think that I happened on Waite's info by....ghosts?  Anyone else believe in weird coincidences at odd ours of the night?   LOL. It was quite a surprise to read his info to say the least.  I actually asked someone about this a year ago when I had no idea who he was.