Bonestone and Earthflesh Tarot

[katrinka]

Is that a slab of watermelon on the Yemaya card?
Yes, I'm aware that it's a proper offering for her. She likes seeded fruits, it doesn't specifically have to be watermelon.
Showing a Black woman with watermelon is something that has a lot of...baggage. They really should have gone with a cantaloupe or something.
And the runes on the Native guy...what's going on here?
 

[Raggydoll]

21 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Is that a slab of watermelon on the Yemaya card?
Yes, I'm aware that it's a proper offering for her. She likes seeded fruits, it doesn't specifically have to be watermelon.
Showing a Black woman with watermelon is something that has a lot of...baggage. They really should have gone with a cantaloupe or something.

Oh, you are right. I did not see that. Yes I am aware of the watermelon stereotype and the really hurtful history of it. 

 

21 minutes ago, katrinka said:

And the runes on the Native guy...what's going on here?
 

I am going to look in the guidebook to see if there is anything that explains it (I will be back with a picture). I suspect that those specific runes are meant to represent the desires or aims for that ritual. I personally think it would have been better to do some research and instead depict something that is a genuine part of that culture. 

[katrinka]

2 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

I am going to look in the guidebook to see if there is anything that explains it (I will be back with a picture). I suspect that those specific runes are meant to represent the desires or aims for that ritual. I personally think it would have been better to do some research and instead depict something that is a genuine part of that culture. 

 

Thanks.
There's a nasty history there, too - not with runes, but with Native culture being obliterated and white culture being forced on them in so many other ways.

[katrinka]

Kuan Yin looks about fourteen. I guess if somebody needs to see her that way, that's how she will appear, but I'm starting to wonder if there was any thought put into this. All of her attributes are missing.

[Raggydoll]

I will go and snap a picture but first I just have to ask if I am the only one seeing any of this 😆 

 

 

 

 

The cup with the blood red beverage in it really sealed the deal for me. It works so well for the Damon look-alike. In reality that card is meant to depict Dionysos  (and wine instead of blood) 😁

 

Clearly my brain works in funny ways 😅

 

 

[Raggydoll]

Here is the text for 3 of wands. It does clearly  imply that we are looking at native Americans and that it is part of their sacred ways to mark someone with runes after a rite of passage. 
 

“He was to be marked just as every successful warrior before him had been marked”

 

Okay, well honestly, reading that makes me uncomfortable. I think it shows a lack of research and a lack of respect for indigenous culture. 

 

 

[katrinka]

Your brain is on track.
Those are ringers. Even moreso than the celebs in the Cosmic.

[Raggydoll]

1 minute ago, katrinka said:

Your brain is on track.
Those are ringers. Even moreso than the celebs in the Cosmic.

Well, since I was little, everyone has used to say that I have ‘facial recognition skill’ 😁 Though I thoroughly suck at remembering numbers and addresses. 

[katrinka]

They sent him to kill a totem of the Creator God? And marked him with runes?
And...the head of the TABLE?

There will be fallout. They should have put some thought and respect into this thing.


 

[katrinka]

8 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Well, since I was little, everyone has used to say that I have ‘facial recognition skill’ 😁 Though I thoroughly suck at remembering numbers and addresses. 

Numbers and addresses are boring. 😁
Why is Athena blonde?

[katrinka]

On further reflection, if you know what runes are, you know they're from northern Europe. They HAD to know that. They just didn't CARE.

[Raggydoll]

16 minutes ago, katrinka said:

They sent him to kill a totem of the Creator God? And marked him with runes?
And...the head of the TABLE?

There will be fallout. They should have put some thought and respect into this thing.


 

Yes. Those things stood out to me as well. I don't know much about first nation spirituality or about the sacred rituals of different tribes but I do know enough to see that what Avalon wrote does not make sense. 

[Raggydoll]

8 minutes ago, katrinka said:

On further reflection, if you know what runes are, you know they're from northern Europe. They HAD to know that. They just didn't CARE.

Avalon works with Odin as part of her rune practice. 

 

ETA Odin is also depicted in the deck, as the Hanged Man

[katrinka]

13 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Yes. Those things stood out to me as well. I don't know much about first nation spirituality or about the sacred rituals of different tribes but I do know enough to see that what Avalon wrote does not make sense. 

There's a lot I don't know, but I do know that they're very respectful of the animals that they kill for food. Everything in nature is holy and if you have to kill something to feed the people, you use every bit of it - meat, bones, hide, hooves - and you don't behead it and leave the meat to rot.

And some animals should NOT be killed. White buffalo calves are considered a sign and very sacred, and aren't killed, but venerated. I've never heard of "Night Bull" (and I'm sure it's a fiction) but if there was such an animal, they wouldn't send anyone to kill him.

I'm assuming these are supposed to be the old time free Plains Natives and they didn't use tables. Imagine moving camp and having to drag a bunch of furniture along with the teepees, etc. And there was a strong belief that the power of the earth moves in a circle (which it actually does, if you think about it), so people wouldn't have sat in lines with somebody at the "head".

Edited October 12, 2020 by katrinka

[katrinka]

12 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Avalon works with Odin as part of her rune practice. 

 

ETA Odin is also depicted in the deck, as the Hanged Man

Which celeb did they use for him? Johnny Depp?

[Raggydoll]

5 minutes ago, katrinka said:

There's a lot I don't know, but I do know that they're very respectful of the animals that they kill for food. Everything in nature is holy and if you have to kill something to feed the people, you use every bit of it - meat, bones, hide, hooves - and you don't behead it and leave the meat to rot.

And some animals should NOT be killed. White buffalo calves are considered a sign and very sacred, and aren't killed, but venerated. I've never heard of "Night Bull" (and I'm sure it's a fiction) but if there was such an animal, they couldn't send anyone to kill him.

I'm assuming these are supposed to be the old time free Plains Natives and they didn't use tables. Imagine moving camp and having to drag a bunch of furniture along with the teepees, etc. And there was a strong belief that the power of the earth moves in a circle (which it actually does, if you think about it), so people wouldn't have sat in lines with somebody at the "head".

Yes, all that makes great sense. 

[Raggydoll]

37 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Which celeb did they use for him? Johnny Depp?

Hahaha, no. Fortunately, he did not ring a bell. 

 

But a couple of other cards did 😁

 

 

 

[gregory]

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

One last thing. I did notice that there is not a single non-thin person in this deck. I found that disappointing. 

 

As a very overweight person I sort of agree, but sort of not.... I'd actually rather not look at more fat people TBH   But yes - I suppose we should be represented !

 

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

Is that a slab of watermelon on the Yemaya card?
Yes, I'm aware that it's a proper offering for her. She likes seeded fruits, it doesn't specifically have to be watermelon.
Showing a Black woman with watermelon is something that has a lot of...baggage. They really should have gone with a cantaloupe or something.
And the runes on the Native guy...what's going on here?
 

 

RUNES - That really is so very wrong.

 

As for the watermelon - I recall our not so holy Prime Minister being pilloried all over the press for using the watermelon smile slur. Nasty. It's like the day the Duke of Edinburgh referred to the idea that spending too much time in China gives people slitty eyes. Casual hurtfully demeaning sillinesses.

 

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

I will go and snap a picture but first I just have to ask if I am the only one seeing any of this 😆 

 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the LoTR people came after them for Gandalf.

 

 

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

Here is the text for 3 of wands. It does clearly  imply that we are looking at native Americans and that it is part of their sacred ways to mark someone with runes after a rite of passage. 
 

“He was to be marked just as every successful warrior before him had been marked”

 

Okay, well honestly, reading that makes me uncomfortable. I think it shows a lack of research and a lack of respect for indigenous culture. 

 

 

 

It is their practice to mark people - but NOT LIKE THAT. Someone should ask MiShell...

 

42 minutes ago, katrinka said:

There's a lot I don't know, but I do know that they're very respectful of the animals that they kill for food. Everything in nature is holy and if you have to kill something to feed the people, you use every bit of it - meat, bones, hide, hooves - and you don't behead it and leave the meat to rot.

 

This is so VERY true. Here's a description of an annual Blackfoot hunt, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-Smashed-In_Buffalo_Jump

 

Quote

And some animals should NOT be killed. White buffalo calves are considered a sign and very sacred, and aren't killed, but venerated. I've never heard of "Night Bull" (and I'm sure it's a fiction) but if there was such an animal, they wouldn't send anyone to kill him.

I'm assuming these are supposed to be the old time free Plains Natives and they didn't use tables. Imagine moving camp and having to drag a bunch of furniture along with the teepees, etc. And there was a strong belief that the power of the earth moves in a circle (which it actually does, if you think about it), so people wouldn't have sat in lines with somebody at the "head".

 

Yes indeed - no tables, either, I think, I must look over the deck again when I have a minute. (I've been slightly avoiding the book because of the binding spell at the beginning...)

Edited October 12, 2020 by gregory

[fire cat pickles]

Has no one mentioned the possibility of cultural appropriation here? (Just coming over from that thread, it's fresh in my mind...)

 

Just to be clear, I have no interest in this deck but I'm following this thread with morbid fascination.

[gregory]

I see what you mean. I am often of the mind that portraying something from another culture respectfully - and - crucially - correctly - can be OK. But - for instance - that marking a Native American with clearly Scandinavian runes is not correct and therefore profoundly wrong. IMHO.

Edited October 12, 2020 by gregory
My PC seems to have developed a weird autocorrect...

[Raggydoll]

25 minutes ago, gregory said:

(I've been slightly avoiding the book because of the binding spell at the beginning...)

 

Funny! Now, take the book out and start reading! 

 

[fire cat pickles]

I feel I can be an objective observer. I've been watching from the sidelines since the beginning but I have no interest in buying this deck.

 

What caught my attention was the name at first, curiously interesting, then all the excitement over it, and yes, it was at least two years ago. Then the video how it would be delayed. And now this?  Just bizarre. I'd be interested to see other people's opinions. How does one explain the whitewashing (excuse the adjective) of other cultures here? A watermelon.  I'm from the South, for God's sake. This really is beyond the pale (again, excuse the adjective) and shows both ignorance and insensitivity. Clearly these are not people of color (at least not stereotypical ones), neither the people portrayed in the deck nor the people designing it. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by fire cat pickles

[katrinka]

29 minutes ago, gregory said:

As a very overweight person I sort of agree, but sort of not.... I'd actually rather not look at more fat people TBH   But yes - I suppose we should be represented !

 

I think big people look impressive when they dress up!

29 minutes ago, gregory said:

 It's like the day the Duke of Edinburgh referred to the idea that spending too much time in China gives people slitty eyes. Casual hurtfully demeaning sillinesses.

 

What an @ss.

Tangentially related, why is the old Chinese man on the 7 of Cup called "The Charlatan"? Did they really have to call him that? The 7 of Cups can be illusion, but I never saw it as out-and-out fraud. It's more something you do to yourself. There's no good reason for calling him that.

At this point, I'm convinced that this is intentional. There's just too many cards with issues like this.
 

29 minutes ago, gregory said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the LoTR people came after them for Gandalf.

 

That would be interesting.
 

 

29 minutes ago, gregory said:

Here's a description of an annual Blackfoot hunt, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-Smashed-In_Buffalo_Jump

 

"After a successful hunt, the wealth of food allowed the people to enjoy leisure time and pursue artistic and spiritual interests. This increased the cultural complexity of the society."
I like this, it sounds very beneficial. I wish our livelihoods worked the same way.
Maybe people would be saner.

[gregory]

The watermelon thing is not actually well known outside the US, I have to admit, But even so... And some of the faces don't LOOK right for POC. Something a lot of artists have trouble with, but that doesn't make it OK.

[gregory]

1 minute ago, katrinka said:

"After a successful hunt, the wealth of food allowed the people to enjoy leisure time and pursue artistic and spiritual interests. This increased the cultural complexity of the society."
I like this, it sounds very beneficial. I wish our livelihoods worked the same way.
Maybe people would be saner.

 

It was great - we were hugely impressed when we went there. They'd stay at the foot of the cliff for a few weeks, socialising, repairing their tepees, fashioning all sorts of tools and needles from bones and preparing to to sew clothes with when the skins were ready.