Bonestone and Earthflesh Tarot

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

Hahaha, no. Fortunately, he did not ring a bell. 

 

But a couple of other cards did 😁

 

 

 

The King of Wands looks familiar, too, I know I've seen his face someplace. An actor? Hip Hop artist?

[Raggydoll]

10 minutes ago, gregory said:

The watermelon thing is not actually well known outside the US, I have to admit, But even so...

Yes I learned about it from an American friend. Even though we most definitely see racism in Europe too, the very particular anti-blackness that exists in America is definitely a beast of its own. And it is hard for us outsiders to fully grasp. In case people wonder what we are talking about I will share some links. Beware that they do contain offensive imagery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon_stereotype

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/how-watermelons-became-a-racist-trope/383529/

 

 

[katrinka]

7 minutes ago, gregory said:

 

It was great - we were hugely impressed when we went there. They'd stay at the foot of the cliff for a few weeks, socialising, repairing their tepees, fashioning all sorts of tools and needles from bones and preparing to to sew clothes with when the skins were ready.

And surely celebrating, singing and dancing into the night. Good times, I'm sure!

[gregory]

Is the Star of Hope "legend" attached to the Star card an actual First Nation legend ? It doesn't appear in any of my books. I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea of just making one up and then putting it up there in the guise of the real McCoy. if it's a new story, that should be made clear.  If it's for real - it should have been credited to the clan it came from. There is too little background here, in general. When you borrow (to put it politely) the traditions, the mythology, the appearance - of others, you should give them credit, and explain where it came from. This applies to a number of cards, actually. Passing off the legends of others almost as if it were your original work is - tacky. Writing legends and making it look like they were genuine legends isn't really OK either. Either way - we should be told.

[FindYourSovereignty]

3 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I will go and snap a picture but first I just have to ask if I am the only one seeing any of this 😆 

 

 

 

 

The cup with the blood red beverage in it really sealed the deal for me. It works so well for the Damon look-alike. In reality that card is meant to depict Dionysos  (and wine instead of blood) 😁

 

Clearly my brain works in funny ways 😅

 

 

 

Ana spoke about this in one of her two FB Zoom gatherings. It is why she feels that the original deck cannot be printed through mass market channels - Karen would have to purchase royalty rights to use the 'look-alike' images that they chose for the deck. I am not really sure why they can get away with this in a self-produced deck as I am not a creator, but I didn't think to ask Ana that question. According to Ana, if Karen really wanted to print mm she would have to redesign the cards that are of recognizable people which, in essence, makes it a different deck. 

 

[Raggydoll]

4 minutes ago, gregory said:

Is the Star of Hope "legend" attached to the Star card an actual First Nation legend ? It doesn't appear in any of my books. I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea of just making one up and then putting it up there in the guise of the real McCoy. if it's a new story, that should be made clear.  If it's for real - it should have been credited to the clan it came from. There is too little background here, in general. When you borrow (to put it politely) the traditions, the mythology, the appearance - of others, you should give them credit, and explain where it came from. This applies to a number of cards, actually. Passing off the legends of others almost as if it were your original work is - tacky. Writing legends and making it look like they were genuine legends isn't really OK either. Either way - we should be told.

I think great creative liberty were taken with all these stories. And it’s one thing when it’s the lady of the lake (there are several cards referring to the King Arthur myths without really quoting any sources) or the Norse myths (like the Odin card) but it’s far far worse when it’s the stories of an oppressed minority that has had their spirituality misappropriated for a very long time. I mean, you should always be respectful of cultures and myths. And this is particularly important in cases as the ones we have just seen. 

[gregory]

7 minutes ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

 

Ana spoke about this in one of her two FB Zoom gatherings. It is why she feels that the original deck cannot be printed through mass market channels - Karen would have to purchase royalty rights to use the 'look-alike' images that they chose for the deck. I am not really sure why they can get away with this in a self-produced deck as I am not a creator, but I didn't think to ask Ana that question. According to Ana, if Karen really wanted to print mm she would have to redesign the cards that are of recognizable people which, in essence, makes it a different deck. 

 

 

Now you mention it - I remember talk about that.

 

ETA as to CandD letters - they could still sue for breach of copyright. Rosales was sued long after he stopped selling Hello Kitty, IIRC...

Edited October 12, 2020 by gregory

[FindYourSovereignty]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Tangentially related, why is the old Chinese man on the 7 of Cup called "The Charlatan"? Did they really have to call him that? The 7 of Cups can be illusion, but I never saw it as out-and-out fraud. It's more something you do to yourself. There's no good reason for calling him that.

At this point, I'm convinced that this is intentional. There's just too many cards with issues like this.

 

I have not received my deck yet, but I find your statement here very interesting... I do think you are onto something with this. I have not been around for the three years of this project, but having crammed all of 'Karen' into a short span of time, the thought 'intentional' to describe her choices has come up for me over and over again. Thank you for posting this statement.

 

[FindYourSovereignty]

18 minutes ago, gregory said:

Is the Star of Hope "legend" attached to the Star card an actual First Nation legend ? It doesn't appear in any of my books. I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea of just making one up and then putting it up there in the guise of the real McCoy. if it's a new story, that should be made clear.  If it's for real - it should have been credited to the clan it came from. There is too little background here, in general. When you borrow (to put it politely) the traditions, the mythology, the appearance - of others, you should give them credit, and explain where it came from. This applies to a number of cards, actually. Passing off the legends of others almost as if it were your original work is - tacky. Writing legends and making it look like they were genuine legends isn't really OK either. Either way - we should be told.

 

This has been noted by several people that she neglected to provide credit or details of where her stories are coming from and if they are true legend or Karen legend or a combination.

 

11 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

I think great creative liberty were taken with all these stories. And it’s one thing when it’s the lady of the lake (there are several cards referring to the King Arthur myths without really quoting any sources) or the Norse myths (like the Odin card) but it’s far far worse when it’s the stories of an oppressed minority that has had their spirituality misappropriated for a very long time. I mean, you should always be respectful of cultures and myths. And this is particularly important in cases as the ones we have just seen. 

 

I agree. I'm starting to wish I hadn't purchased the deck. I got so drawn up into the FOMO and now I am totally over it. Ana has other decks coming out and I don't need this one.

 

I also am really irritated by the binding spell and don't invite anyone into my circle that attempts to shut-me-up or tries to control me in some way. This just doesn't sit well with me. Aren't the cards all about talking and telling a story, engaging with others if you are so inclined? 

 

 

[Raggydoll]

11 minutes ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

 

This has been noted by several people that she neglected to provide credit or details of where her stories are coming from and if they are true legend or Karen legend or a combination.

Yes, I think some clarity would have been a very good thing. 

 

11 minutes ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

I agree. I'm starting to wish I hadn't purchased the deck. I got so drawn up into the FOMO and now I am totally over it. Ana has other decks coming out and I don't need this one.

Anas other decks do look very nice. I love her art style and she has her own unique perspective on tarot that isn't so much in your face, instead is stirs emotions and provokes profound insights. 

 

 

[gregory]

The only other deck of Ana's' I have is the Hidden Waters. The art is lovely - but I do find the waters rather - hidden - has she done other tarot decks ? Gregory doesn't do oracles.

[Raggydoll]

5 minutes ago, gregory said:

The only other deck of Ana's' I have is the Hidden Waters. The art is lovely - but I do find the waters rather - hidden - has she done other tarot decks ? Gregory doesn't do oracles.

She is currently working on a tarot deck to go with her oracle of echoes. It looks very promising. More pictures are on her instagram I believe. 

 

https://www.anatourianart.com/tarot-of-echoes

 

 

[gregory]

Oh GOODY ! Thanks. (Yes that looks lovely.)

[FindYourSovereignty]

24 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Anas other decks do look very nice. I love her art style and she has her own unique perspective on tarot that isn't so much in your face, instead is stirs emotions and provokes profound insights. 

 

 

Yes, I agree. It has been a joy to spend some times with Ana and get to know her a bit. I know she was on the bashes, but I cannot sit through those lengthy videos. 

 

[FindYourSovereignty]

14 minutes ago, gregory said:

The only other deck of Ana's' I have is the Hidden Waters. The art is lovely - but I do find the waters rather - hidden - has she done other tarot decks ? Gregory doesn't do oracles.

 

She also has a black and white deck Tarot of the Abyss coming out in early 2021 with US Games.

 

 

[gregory]

6 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I have spent this weekend looking at the guidebook and flipping through the cards. I have managed a quick three card reading too. But I feel that it is far to early for me to do a review, because there is so much to unpack. The guidebook is very substantial and there are quite a few features for each card. It starts out with basic occult correspondences, then it lists a name for each card (the main character of the card), plus some general keywords. Then there is a narrative or a storyline that goes with the card. After that there is a section on what each card means in a reading, then there are reversed meanings and finally also some journaling prompts. So quite a lot to dig into. My very first impression was that the introduction of the book was really lovely written (Minus the binding spell. Sorry to repeat myself on that but I really do not care for it) and that I was happy with the amount of information given for each card. As I was looking at the names and stories, and compared them to the images and the keywords, I did struggle with some things. I can't 100% put my finger on it yet so I want to mull over it a bit longer. I guess that for some cards I felt that maybe the names were assigned after the fact and that they perhaps focused mostly on etymology and not on whether the name truly fit the visual impression of that card. The card that initiated that impression for me was, funnily enough, the Fool. It is titled Junko and in the story it is clear that the woman on the card, looking down the tree trunk, is named that. The name Junko has personal connotations for me since I know someone in real life who is named that. She is from Japan. And Junko is of course a Japanese name. But the woman in this card look, to me, very Caucasian. There were more cards like that. In the Strength card there is a white woman with red hair who is given a hindu name. So its tiny things like that that stood out to me and made me go 'hmm'. Also, there are some cards where I feel a disconnect between the depiction, the name, the story and the keywords. Many of the cards feature the archetypes of deities, orishas and mythological characters. And on some occasions I sort of feel that the story and the keywords given do not 100% match up or resonate with me. It could just be a personal thing for sure, that is why I need to sit with it. Aside from those things, the art is breathtakingly beautiful. Several depictions feel unique and clever. The cardstock is lush, and while I might not have chosen the red gilding myself, I don't mind it. It livens up the deck. I am a gentle overhand shuffler so I hope it will stay intact for a while, but time will tell. 

 

Oh, and one more thing that I just noticed. In the three of wands there are first nation individuals and for some reason they are painting germanic runes while performing a sacred ritual (that card is depicted below). I need to read the guidebook entry on that one, it was a bit of an unusual combination for sure. That tells me I need some time to properly look at the details of the cards. I have been distracted by thoughts such as "Wow that looks like Gandalf, and is that meant to be Harry Potter? And that looks a bit like Naomi Campbell.  Ooh, that guy looks like Damon in Vampire Diaries" 😆 I am like that with most decks that has realistic drawings! 

 

Okay, getting back on track now. I pulled some cards for you to look at. I don't think we have featured many pictures up until now and I do think its time we get to the good stuff 🙂 I will list the names from the bonestone book too so that you get an idea of the type of archetypes included in this deck. I am looking forward to hearing about your thoughts and experiences with this deck so far (yes I am aware that some of you haven't even received your decks. Sorry about that and I hope this doesn't feel like a spoiler. 💜)

 

 

The Chariot - Charis the G*psy traveller (I don't feel comfortable using the full title as it contains a slur for romani people. I do know that some romani individuals are reclaiming that word but that is for them to do so, I don't feel like I am entitled to throw that word around, risking to hurt others and to perpetuate racist stereotypes. And for those that happen to not know, the word comes from the ignorant and false notion that Romani people originated form Egypt. If you remove the 'E' then you see where the slur came from). 

 

Wait - I missed that. That is in pretty - poor taste. The name itself means Charity - it's Greek - so why attach a Greek name to an individual and give her a stereotyped racial background - not to mention that in the story her family don't seem to see her as being of that racial group - she is the loner in the family, who is bitten by a "travel bug" - the rest of the family seem to be "regular people". So the racial title doesn't even fit.

[gregory]

1 minute ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

She also has a black and white deck Tarot of the Abyss coming out in early 2021 with US Games.

Thanks.  

[katrinka]

6 minutes ago, gregory said:

 

Wait - I missed that. That is in pretty - poor taste. The name itself means Charity - it's Greek - so why attach a Greek name to an individual and give her a stereotyped racial background - not to mention that in the story her family don't seem to see her as being of that racial group - she is the loner in the family, who is bitten by a "travel bug" - the rest of the family seem to be "regular people". So the racial title doesn't even fit.

And even though she's not part of that racial group, she travels around in a vardo dressed in the stereotypical costume.
This is also Not Okay.

[Raggydoll]

15 minutes ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

 

She also has a black and white deck Tarot of the Abyss coming out in early 2021 with US Games.

 

 

Yes I forgot, that one looks really good. Can't wait for it to be released!

[gregory]

5 minutes ago, katrinka said:

And even though she's not part of that racial group, she travels around in a vardo dressed in the stereotypical costume.
This is also Not Okay.

 Anyone can make and travel round in a vardo, I think  they are artworks as much as anything. We were going to build one once... till we realised a VW camper was SO much cheaper. But the costume - yes indeed.

[PathWalker]

Another outside observer here - I suppose it's sad that the deck disappoints after such a long wait, but it doesn't surprise me. I guess that most peeps were already committed to it before the bad vibes began, (?) but it seems that it's simply living up to the rather "off" vibe it's had for some time.

 

Chalk it up to experience I guess? I don't perhaps buy another deck by that author/creator?

[Raggydoll]

I think what drew me to this deck in the first place was both Anas lovely art and the thought about Avalon writing about what she knows. Because there are areas of witchcraft where she has a unique angle and I find her background (as a hereditary practitioner who has had to find her way in a new part of the world) interesting. That is probably also why I was disappointed to see that so much of what she has written about seem to be stuff that she doesn't know that well. If this had been a deck that held her authentic experience and that pinpointed her areas of expertise then I think that could have been a really good thing. I think this deck is going in many directions because it reflects the stage before she fully rediscovered her ancestral practice. Before then she had a more typical wiccan practice with a smörgåsbord full of deities and rituals. I am not sure if this deck represents who she is today. It is a bit like looking at Benebell Wen now and then trying to fit Holistic tarot into that. It just doesn't gel properly. Not sure if that makes sense but its how I see it. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way. 

[gregory]

The artist is brilliant; look at her other work. The tarot she is creating right now doesn't seem to have these issues, which is telling.

 

The card names and stories are down to the creator. I do wonder to what extent detailed direction was given to the artist; there are some racial issues in terms of actual features - that may be down to unfamiliarity - I recall Ciro assign for advice about this, YEARS ago. But the watermelon thing - why was that put there ? I would  imagine that the artist was told to paint one.

[gregory]

7 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

 It is a bit like looking at Benebell Wen now and then trying to fit Holistic tarot into that. It just doesn't gel properly. Not sure if that makes sense but its how I see it. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way. 

 I GET this - Benebell seems to be trying to include absolutely everything, to attract as many buyers as she can - and it doesn't ring true any more. This looks a bit that way too - include as much as you can - but this one gets so much actually wrong.

[katrinka]

14 minutes ago, gregory said:

 Anyone can make and travel round in a vardo, I think  they are artworks as much as anything. We were going to build one once... till we realised a VW camper was SO much cheaper. But the costume - yes indeed.

 

Yes, I meant taken all together. The vardo IN ADDITION to that outfit.