10 of swords vs death

[Kashi]

I hope this is the right place to ask this question. This is my first post here as I just joined. 

I'd love to know how others see the differences and similarities between the 10 of swords and the death card. 

Thank you In advance 

[katrinka]

A lot of people try to tone down Death by talking about death and rebirth, transformation, etc., and that makes it confusing, IMHO. It's part of the cycle of death and rebirth, but it's the death part. It's "that's it, the end, farewell."

 

All the 10's in the Minors stand for the end of a process. Crowley titled this one "Ruin". It's something that's been done to death: anything from overanalyzing things to the scorched earth remaining after a war. Eudes Picard once said that the Majors are causes and the Minors are effects. I tend to agree, and it makes sense here. Death is the end itself, and the 10 of Swords is what you may be left with.

[Decan]

Death is a heart attack (for example), and the 10 of Swords the corpse on the floor.

Sorry for the dramatic image but with these 2 ones...

 

ETA: I think we can bring nuances here of course, and if you read for someone else you can say something like "hmm, it's not that good, I'm a tiny bit worrying with these cards I pulled regarding a good result", or more directly "okay it's negative!" 😬

We don't predict actual death from the Death card only too.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Decan

[gregory]

Decan - that's a beaut !

 

The difference is that death is an END - after which you MAY be able to start over., because as katrinka says, it's part of a cycle.

 

10 Swords - that opportunity is not there. Whatever it was is dead, and DONE.

[Decan]

48 minutes ago, gregory said:

Decan - that's a beaut !

Are you serious? To be honest I thought that I was too blunt 😄

[Guest]

Overtime the Death card has been sanitised somewhat with concepts of transformation and renewal becoming associated with it. However, Death is death. Decomposition is not a transformation but a breakdown of matter. 
 

Thus Death is a permanent ending to a situation, phase or person. It settles debts, clears the harvest, and at Allhallowtide, will end the Oak King’s reign.  What comes thereafter is not a part of the Death card. 
 

As Katrinka intimates, tens are the final station which for me is the passage (10= 1 + 0 = 1). Often it is the coup de grâce. But there is a sense of overkill as we face the inevitable collapse which we have feared. The 10 is the realisation of an ending. The aftermath.

 

Traditionally, swords are the suit of death. For me, the Ace, Three, Four and Five of Swords are more about actual death—with the Ace of Swords being death in classical cartomancy. The Knave can even be seen as the Ratchets. 

1 hour ago, Decan said:

Are you serious? To be honest I thought that I was too blunt 😄

 

It cut to the bone. Perfect for the topic. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Guest

[gregory]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Overtime the Death card has been sanitised somewhat with concepts of transformation and renewal becoming associated with it. However, Death is death. Decomposition is not a transformation but a breakdown of matter. 
 

Thus Death is a permanent ending to a situation, phase or person. It settles debts, clears the harvest, and at Allhallowtide, will end the Oak King’s reign.  What comes thereafter is not a part of the Death card. 

 

A permanent ending - yes. But also part of a cyc;le - as the 10 is not.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, gregory said:

 

A permanent ending - yes. But also part of a cyc;le - as the 10 is not.

If I am honest I am not too sure I see it as a cycle. Death is death. It does not pertain to the cycle of life but to the termination point Fate herself has decreed.

 

There has to be a distinction between the act and the narrative. Death is the act. How it manifests and the place in our stories are distinct topics with the latter expressed by the other cards.
 

It may be I am not explaining myself clearly, as I am not as eloquent as others. But Death is death. It’s an event. 

When I was growing up in a rural area, the reaping was a distinct occasion to postharvest. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Guest

[katrinka]

It can be part of a cycle, but I think it can be separated. Beings begin life, they're around for awhile, and then they die - but there are new beings to replace them. That's not a guarantee, however. If life on earth was annihilated, the cycle would end. Or it could end for a species: extinction breaks the cycle. When the last one goes, it's over.

That's what we know. There are religious views on what happens to consciousness/the soul/the spirit, but that's an item of faith - we don't know.

 

The card makes no promises. As you said:
 

29 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

There has to be a distinction between the act and the narrative. Death is the act. How it manifests and the place in our stories are distinct topics with the latter expressed by the other cards.

 

[gregory]

From a brilliant Judith Viorst book about a dead pet:

 

Quote

Barney is in the ground helping things to grow. “That’s a pretty good job for a cat.”

 

Part of a cycle.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, gregory said:

From a brilliant Judith Viorst book about a dead pet:

 

 

Part of a cycle.

Lol. I do like that. But internment or cremation are funeral rites to appease the soul (and spirit for some who see them as the same thing), after death. So it is nice that Barney can do it. But does Death care? Did she choose to cull Barney for that cyclic purpose?
 

I cannot say. Fate keeps her secrets.
 

Death is death: the extinguishing of life. If Death is read as essence it is fin. It’s function is to cull.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

It can be part of a cycle, but I think it can be separated. Beings begin life, they're around for awhile, and then they die - but there are new beings to replace them. That's not a guarantee, however. If life on earth was annihilated, the cycle would end. Or it could end for a species: extinction breaks the cycle. When the last one goes, it's over.

That's what we know. There are religious views on what happens to consciousness/the soul/the spirit, but that's an item of faith - we don't know.

 

The card makes no promises. As you said:
 

 

 Yes. As I said above, I am not always the best at explaining. But you hit the nail on the head.
 

I do not see the trumps or cards in general as universal storyboards, archetypes, and so on. So I take Death as death — devoid of any other reading prior or after, or cultural explanation of life and death. The cards are read then and there. So Death ends. There is no cyclic explanation for me. 
 

[LogicalHue]

Well I feel pretty differently about this than previous posters. ☺️ I've never thought of the Death card as literally referring to death, and, for me, that's never been about a "lightening it up" or what have you. First of all there's just the matter of how I initially was taught the meanings of the cards, but also I think the imagery of the RWS card supports a time of change. There's a dead body in the image, but there's a bunch of people in the image, and I don't at all think - as the subject of a reading - you are meant to put yourself in the position of the king (the only dead person). I think the falling of a king marks the beginning of great change, and that's what the card is about. An event, any kind of ending of one thing, that starts big changes with other things.

 

Funnily I have the same complaint about the Tower as a card I feel like people try to make into a much gentler version of itself in a similar vein of "well something was torn down but that just makes room for new things! 💖" 🙄 There are some people who just don't want there to be negative cards.

 

For me the two "worst" cards in the deck are the Tower and the 10 or Swords. If someone asked me for a card that can mean literal death, to me - its 10 of Swords. 10 of Swords = bad news, don't do that, this will end badly. Things of that nature.

[jadegwen]

Death looks like he knows who he is. He stands up, sure of himself, not afraid to show his true form. He has a scythe, he holds it firmly and sure. He knows his purpose, he isn't afraid of himself. He isn't good or bad, he just is. Some people fear him, some people embrace him. He remains non-judgemental, professional and there to carry out his role. He's there to help people cross over, to debride the old tissue from wounds to make way for new tissue to develop and healing and life to regenerate.

 

The ten of swords, the person in the card is laying down, tied up with swords on their back. They have way too much swords, no-one is attacking them in the card, so I interpret the person's own's actions or mind has done this to them. Sword is representative of intellect, thoughts, or air. So the person's mind is all over the place. They don't know how to use their thoughts, they are a victim and they are under the illusion they can't pick themselves up. Over time, these negative thought processes and habits will be the death of a person if left to continue in that fashion. Now each reading can alternate the meaning of both cards, depending on the querent. 

 

Of both of them, I feel more reassured and confident seeing Death. I'd rather be Death.

[jadegwen]

On 10/2/2020 at 10:34 PM, LogicalHue said:

Well I feel pretty differently about this than previous posters. ☺️ I've never thought of the Death card as literally referring to death, and, for me, that's never been about a "lightening it up" or what have you. First of all there's just the matter of how I initially was taught the meanings of the cards, but also I think the imagery of the RWS card supports a time of change. There's a dead body in the image, but there's a bunch of people in the image, and I don't at all think - as the subject of a reading - you are meant to put yourself in the position of the king (the only dead person). I think the falling of a king marks the beginning of great change, and that's what the card is about. An event, any kind of ending of one thing, that starts big changes with other things.

 

Funnily I have the same complaint about the Tower as a card I feel like people try to make into a much gentler version of itself in a similar vein of "well something was torn down but that just makes room for new things! 💖" 🙄 There are some people who just don't want there to be negative cards.

 

For me the two "worst" cards in the deck are the Tower and the 10 or Swords. If someone asked me for a card that can mean literal death, to me - its 10 of Swords. 10 of Swords = bad news, don't do that, this will end badly. Things of that nature.

I totally agree about the Tower. The Tower card when I get it is the card that keeps on giving for obstacles in my own personal experience. I try to embrace the wave of change the Tower card brings, but a lot of pieces fall after the other leaving me facing one thing after an hour. It's a 'oh what fresh hell is this' card to me. I've found it can also tell me of a catharsis that needs to go on with someone repressing emotions (or myself because I put walls up).

[TheLoracular]

I had been writing about Death elsewhere over the last couple of days and noticed this thread today serendipitously.   Here is how my brain typically processes it.  A lot of course depends on the context of what I'm doing a reading on and why, what other cards are there.  But here is my baseline and I added another card to those mentioned before for some more comparison/contrast. 

The Tower --  *BOOM*   Explosive change that may or may not have been a random change of events.   I see this card show up WAY more often when me or a querent is about to permanently lose something/someone they love and it now serves as a warning to me to do everything I can to shore up my emotional resilience and be prepared for a crisis, small or big.   Other than that, I can't plan specifically what to do until whatever happens... happens.  

Death --  The proverbial writing was already on the wall.  Me or the querent knew or know that we are going to lose something, that change was/is coming, it is painful and there are layers to be felt and chewed through.  The RWS version of Death has a golden dawn rising in the background and promises better things to come afterwards but not every deck does this.  There is a process to have, changes to make, things probably won't be fast but moving with the current vs. denial of the need of making transformative changes will make it a whole lot smoother. 

5 of Cups --  Grief and processing grief.  Whatever was just lost might seem like not a big deal to someone else on the outside, but its a big deal to myself or my querent.   Let yourself feel and reach some healing before you pick up those other cups behind you and start anew. 

10 of Swords -- Things did not go according to plan or they will not go according to plan.  The result isn't or won't be what was imagined.  Its okay to take a couple of deep breaths, but this isn't for emotional deep diving like the 5 of Cups.  Analysis of what went wrong or what is going wrong is important though.  Then yanking out one of those swords and adjusting to a completely new plan or modifying the one you are on.  Proceed forward.  

Edited October 21, 2020 by TheLoracular

[Helena]

On 10/18/2020 at 1:22 PM, jadegwen said:

The ten of swords, the person in the card is laying down, tied up with swords on their back. They have way too much swords, no-one is attacking them in the card, so I interpret the person's own's actions or mind has done this to them. Sword is representative of intellect, thoughts, or air. So the person's mind is all over the place. They don't know how to use their thoughts, they are a victim and they are under the illusion they can't pick themselves up. Over time, these negative thought processes and habits will be the death of a person if left to continue in that fashion. Now each reading can alternate the meaning of both cards, depending on the querent. 

In my personal experience, this resonates with me most about the 10 of swords. The 10 of swords also tends to come up for me when I've asked something "to death", like beating a dead horse. I can almost feel my cards saying, "Give it a rest, girl. You're beating this to death and then some." The 10 of swords in my deck is, not only someone with 10 swords in their back, but they have been decapitated and both hands have been severed and placed on top of two upright swords like Ned Stark's head. It's pretty graphic and completely unnecessary. 

 

I've said before that the actual Death card is my favorite card in my deck...it's my profile pic btw. To me, it just exudes "bella muerte". It's a sad, but cathartic and compassionate surrender. 

 

"And then he greeted Death as an old friend, and went with him gladly, and, equals, they departed this life." - The Deathly Hallows. That's always the feeling I get with it. Surrender. Release. Peace.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Helena

[AlbaTross]

Hmmm...well, Death definitely marks an end, either by saying you should put an end to something, or that something will end whether you want it to or not.  To my understanding, the Ten of Swords is about a painful end to something, or at least that's one of its meanings.  The thing with Death is, it doesn't have to be painful.  Change can often be a bit scary, and it could be painful to let go, but I actually think of Death as an overall positive card.  Sure, the death part is clearly emphasized over what comes afterwards, but at its core it's really just saying something will come to an end so that you can move forward.  The Ten of Swords really emphasizes the pain part, I think.  Something is going to end, and it is going to hurt, but it's for that reason that it's best for you to move on. 

 

I think a more equivalent Major Arcana card would be The Tower, as that emphasizes a shaking up of your foundation, which means it's not going to be easy, and therefore, will be painful.  Of course, a big difference in that card is that whatever it's referring to is something significant to you.  With the Ten of Swords, the thing that's ending could be anything.  It's likely referring to something that's hard to leave behind, but it doesn't have to be something that's a pillar in your life or a significant part of your worldview.  

 

Of course, Majors have that distinction of being more potent, and therefore, marking something more permanent, while Minors don't necessarily carry the same tone of finality.  Still, a ten is a very potent card as far as Minors go.  Maybe not quite on the same level as a court card, but a ten is significant in its own right.  If you get a card that marks an end to something, note that it marks an end to something.  

[Millie]

Death, being a major, as an end, whether cyclic or not is speaking about the concept of inevitability or fate of something.  A kind of inexorable situation.  Whereas the 10 of Swords, being a minor, for me, is more about a personal decision taken to end something or the mental state of giving up.

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Millie

[Wanderer]

Interesting thread! The issue of Death as an end, or part of a cycle, is for me moot - it depends on your perspective. It's the end for the thing that's dying, but that in itself marks a beginning for something else. This differs from a transformation, in that the thing that continues is completely separate from the thing that dies. The death may be a small part of a very large and complex cycle... but it doesn't seem small to the one experiencing it.

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, Wanderer said:

Interesting thread! The issue of Death as an end, or part of a cycle, is for me moot - it depends on your perspective. It's the end for the thing that's dying, but that in itself marks a beginning for something else.

 

True, but I think it's important not to get all Pollyanna with that. "Something else" could be decomposition, it could be grinding poverty if a job ends and you don't have another lined up and there's none to be had, all kinds of not-so-rosy things.

 

2 hours ago, Wanderer said:

This differs from a transformation, in that the thing that continues is completely separate from the thing that dies. The death may be a small part of a very large and complex cycle... but it doesn't seem small to the one experiencing it.

 

Yes. I've never subscribed to the caterpillar/butterfly model. What's in the cocoon is not dead.

[Wanderer]

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

True, but I think it's important not to get all Pollyanna with that. "Something else" could be decomposition, it could be grinding poverty if a job ends and you don't have another lined up and there's none to be had, all kinds of not-so-rosy things.

Again, that depends on perspective. Decomposition isn't great for the thing being decomposed, but it's a source of life and abundance for the fungi, bacteria, and all manner of little creatures that are making it happen. Something nearly always benefits from another's misfortune (yeah, I know we could come up with exceptions...). 

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

Yes. I've never subscribed to the caterpillar/butterfly model. What's in the cocoon is not dead.

I actually wrote almost exactly that, and then scrubbed it out... because I'm not sure what it's like to experience complete metamorphosis. 😄 The brain of a caterpillar, it has been believed, is dismantled into the same mush as the rest of it during the coccoon, and then reformed from scratch as the brain of a butterfly. It should therefore lose all its personal memories, and to all extents and purposes the caterpillar does die. It's not like going to sleep and waking up all bright and shiny with a new coat; it's more like being consumed by a parasite that turns your matter into something new. However... it turns out that's (somehow!) not true: moths do retain memories from their caterpillar days:

https://theconversation.com/despite-metamorphosis-moths-hold-on-to-memories-from-their-days-as-a-caterpillar-29859

Either bits of the brain somehow remain intact during the gloop phase, or there are ways of storing memory that the we don't yet understand. Either way, I'm also keeping the analogy on the back burner for the moment - sometimes simple analogies get faaaaar too complicated!

[katrinka]

On 11/11/2020 at 3:13 AM, Wanderer said:

Again, that depends on perspective. Decomposition isn't great for the thing being decomposed, but it's a source of life and abundance for the fungi, bacteria, and all manner of little creatures that are making it happen. Something nearly always benefits from another's misfortune (yeah, I know we could come up with exceptions...). 

 

But if someone lost a loved one, you obviously wouldn't tell them to think of the fungi and bacteria that are benefiting from the corpse. That's what I meant by "it's important not to get all Pollyanna".  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollyanna#Plot

 

With readings, we have to consider the sitter's POV and keep things relevant to that. You can't just tell them that whatever bad comes their way is fine because someone or something else will benefit. 
 

On 11/11/2020 at 3:13 AM, Wanderer said:

I actually wrote almost exactly that, and then scrubbed it out... because I'm not sure what it's like to experience complete metamorphosis. 😄 The brain of a caterpillar, it has been believed, is dismantled into the same mush as the rest of it during the coccoon, and then reformed from scratch as the brain of a butterfly. It should therefore lose all its personal memories, and to all extents and purposes the caterpillar does die. It's not like going to sleep and waking up all bright and shiny with a new coat; it's more like being consumed by a parasite that turns your matter into something new. However... it turns out that's (somehow!) not true: moths do retain memories from their caterpillar days:

https://theconversation.com/despite-metamorphosis-moths-hold-on-to-memories-from-their-days-as-a-caterpillar-29859

Either bits of the brain somehow remain intact during the gloop phase, or there are ways of storing memory that the we don't yet understand. Either way, I'm also keeping the analogy on the back burner for the moment - sometimes simple analogies get faaaaar too complicated!

 

That's fascinating to ponder. The nature of consciousness in general is fascinating and mysterious. But it's not really relevant at the reading table.
The mush is obviously alive anyway, or it would simply rot. The essence of the card is Death. Not Living Mush. 😉

[Helena]

I think there's a difference in having a pollyanna spirit and malignant optimism that borders on delusion. Pollyanna was not delusional. She chose to pick a fruitful seed out of an otherwise rotting apple.

 

Yen and yang DO exist within one another. Such is the complexity of human experience. Rarely is anything all bad or all good. 

 

Why wouldn't the mysteries of consciousness be relevant at a reading table? Isn't that why we're all here? To communicate with a consiousness that we don't fully understand but that can see from a different point of view than our own and guide us in our best path? I think the consiousness of a caterpillar could be a comforting metaphor to someone going through a difficult time. Read the room, obvi, but I don't see it as something to throw out as irrelevant. 

 

Now, don't get me wrong...there have been times when my tower moment has JUST happened, and someone offering me "look on the bright side" infuriated me. I was in pain, and I felt like such a response was pretty judgy. But later, after that pain subsided, I could see the value in what they had offered me. The response is all about empathy to me. Sometimes a person just needs to be supported through the pain and understood that maybe that's all she can see right then. And then at the right time, we can start evaluating and seeing the blessings that came from it in order to forgive, heal, and move forward. It depends on where the person is in their journey. If someone is at a healing stage, it wouldn't be fruitful to call them back to the beginning where all they could see was the pain. 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Helena

[Guest]

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

But if someone lost a loved one, you obviously wouldn't tell them to think of the fungi and bacteria that are benefiting from the corpse. That's what I meant by "it's important not to get all Pollyanna".  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollyanna#Plot

 

With readings, we have to consider the sitter's POV and keep things relevant to that. You can't just tell them that whatever bad comes their way is fine because someone or something else will benefit. 
 

 

That's fascinating to ponder. The nature of consciousness in general is fascinating and mysterious. But it's not really relevant at the reading table.
The mush is obviously alive anyway, or it would simply rot. The essence of the card is Death. Not Living Mush. 😉

This. 

 

It is easy to confuse essence and consequence. It is true that decomposition is a consequence of death; however, it is not death. Death is the moment that life becomes extinct. Whatever comes after is something else - best seen in the angel/le jugement. 
 

As for the reading table, my clientele have never asked to discuss the mysteries of consciousness. They are more concerned with what their palms, or the cards, say is going on and what is to come. Other clients might be different.