8. Coffin

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Some believe The Fog would be more appropriate; however, from discussing the card with numerous students, I doubt that it would help.

 

The word "students" is key here, I think. 😉
If someone wants to make a deck with a fog card, good luck to them. Lenormand has no fog.
 

5 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

The issue is a failure to distinguish between sign and symptoms.  

 

Yes.
 

5 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

The confusion emphasis, to me, stems more from subjective, “psychological” and abstract readings that arose in the New Age.

If we look at Droesbeke, in 1987, the Clouds was still malefic. Even in the French and English translations (1989/90s) it remains problematic. Over the next 20 years, however, it became even more toned down (like several trèfle cards (Serpent, Renard/Fox, Mice). 

 

Even Treppner tones things down, there's some dribble in the course.
I think this was an attempt to make it more commercial. Now that it's free, I wish she'd revisit it and edit a bit. I doubt she will, though.

A lot of people do consider the dark and light sides of the Clouds. But the light side doesn't mean it's OK. If it was OK, the card wouldn't be there. Rather, it's the aftermath. The storm is over but you've got holes in the roof, mold, downed power lines, that kind of thing. 
 

5 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

We see the Clouds as a benign symbol. But in divination, the absence of light is considered malefic.
 

Similarly, clouds, and the weather itself, could ruin many a livelihood in the 18/19 centuries.  It still can (in our troubled times — hurricanes, floods, et cetera). 

 

That's how I think of it - hurricanes and floods rather than passing showers that water the flowers.  
Here is an aftermath, things can definitely get this bad:

 

 

When your car has washed away, your things are all ruined and there's water moccasins in places you normally wouldn't see them, newly-clear skies aren't all that helpful. And just because the card usually isn't literal is no reason to minimize it.
 

5 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

There are a few Lenormand-influenced French oracles. These tend to show thunder and lightning on the les nuages/nuées cards. It helps.

 

Yes. I have a copy of an old French Lenormand with a hot air balloon on the clouds card. There's lightning, a rope has snapped and people are tumbling out. I normally prefer my Lenormands unadorned, but this one does drive the point home, lol. 

 

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, Krystalida said:

It can blurry the atmosphere though?

I had it with the WHip for troubles!

 

The Key is one of the cards I haven;t undestanf d yet, but in another post 🙂

 

 

2 hours ago, Krystalida said:

Id there any good sourve on internet or book to learn the meanings? 

 

This should clear all of that up:

https://thepetitlenormand.com/card-meanings/

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Krystalida said:

It can blurry the atmosphere though?

I had it with the WHip for troubles!

 

The Key is one of the cards I haven;t undestanf d yet, but in another post 🙂

 

The Clouds + Birch Rod/Whip does indicate that there is potential for misunderstanding, but primarily warns us not to exacerbate matters as the situation can turn nasty and be twice as bad. It’s impossible to clear the air.

 

Birch Rod/Whip + Clouds can indicate conversations or action (Birch Rod) that causes hostility or muddies the water (Clouds).

 

Again, confusion can arise from all of these. It’s a symptom. But there will be an external sign, too.

 

The Ring with the Book has the potential to confuse. You have to read it over and over and it never makes sense. 
 

 

 

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Krystalida said:

This reminds me a phrase we use here in slung, something like "I m taken from darkness" the meaning is that someone got clouded cause they are very angry, in some cases the word clouded is used also.

 

Id there any good sourve on internet or book to learn the meanings? 

Yes. Some people say that the sky looks angry, or the rain is torrential (which means heavy, aggressive, et cetera). 
 

The court card (king of clubs) was associated with Alexandre the Great. So, as a person, the clouds is combative and difficult. Sometimes he can be an ex-partner or estranged friend or family members.  

[Guest]

18 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

The word "students" is key here, I think. 😉
If someone wants to make a deck with a fog card, good luck to them. Lenormand has no fog.
 

 

Yes.
 

 

Even Treppner tones things down, there's some dribble in the course.
I think this was an attempt to make it more commercial. Now that it's free, I wish she'd revisit it and edit a bit. I doubt she will, though.

A lot of people do consider the dark and light sides of the Clouds. But the light side doesn't mean it's OK. If it was OK, the card wouldn't be there. Rather, it's the aftermath. The storm is over but you've got holes in the roof, mold, downed power lines, that kind of thing. 
 

 

That's how I think of it - hurricanes and floods rather than passing showers that water the flowers.  
Here is an aftermath, things can definitely get this bad:

 

 

When your car has washed away, your things are all ruined and there's water moccasins in places you normally wouldn't see them, newly-clear skies aren't all that helpful. And just because the card usually isn't literal is no reason to minimize it.
 

 

Yes. I have a copy of an old French Lenormand with a hot air balloon on the clouds card. There's lightning, a rope has snapped and people are tumbling out. I normally prefer my Lenormands unadorned, but this one does drive the point home, lol. 

 

I think of hurricanes, floods, fires, et cetera, more than drizzle or overcast skies. There is so much damage sustained by the weather.  It does seem odd that people struggle with the cards’ malefic nature when we can see it.

 

The light and dark side is a contentious issue.
 

Numerous people cite the PL sheet’s lucky (an English translation), but the definitions, there, are not absolute meanings. They are “all being equal” vignettes on how cards might function based on engagement. That is why some cards are not delineated based on proximity (Flowers, et cetera). We have to keep that in mind. Otherwise you start mixing stuff like houses and distance. Being in a house is not the same as being near. 

 

If the light side faces the significator the positive is more time based—the worst is over. It functions much like the 6 of Cups -see Minetta, Pratt, Montalban - if reversed, it was read as the future whereas upright it was the past. You factored that in on the cards it fell with. 

That is how it has worked for me.  For a very long time. 
 

Iris is a nice person. I can understand why she tones down — I had several reviews objecting of my treatment of the Clouds lol.
 

Sometimes I find it amusing — especially when I see people saying dog is related to work (colleagues, people you manage), the High Tower looks into the distance (past or future), Ring for repetition. These are cropping up now, as innovations. Lol.
 

Yet when I said it back in 2009-11, I got a lot of flak. Same as Malkiel with his bring back (Stork).

Edited November 27, 2020 by Guest

[Mediolanum]

I’m sorry to bring this topic back to life, but I have a question about the Coffin card.

 

I met someone on a plane recently and suggested that we and our families get together at some point. I did a quick 3-card reading and got:

Coffin - Cross - Ring

 

When I see the Coffin card at the beginning of the “sentence”, I tend to think of the word “No”. So I read “No difficult/ burdensome engagement/ connection”. Would you agree? 

[Mister]

Certainly.

It would most likely be a bother, given that the entire line is negative (8&36), with one tainted neutral in there (25), and no positives to remove the stain.

I'd say "too soon, too close".

[joy]

Hey @Mediolanum I agree it does not look good. The Coffin in my opinion is a total stop card, game over. No matter what the question was the Cross and Ring would indicate constant/repeated struggle/burden.

[Mediolanum]

12 hours ago, Mister said:

Certainly.

It would most likely be a bother, given that the entire line is negative (8&36), with one tainted neutral in there (25), and no positives to remove the stain.

I'd say "too soon, too close".

Right. The word “burden” came to me, but bother is more appropriate. I have to say that I was a little taken aback by my reading, as this person and I got on extremely well during our long flight, and I thought that it’d be fun to hang out with like minded people. Oh well!

[Mediolanum]

10 hours ago, joy said:

Hey @Mediolanum I agree it does not look good. The Coffin in my opinion is a total stop card, game over. No matter what the question was the Cross and Ring would indicate constant/repeated struggle/burden.

Thanks for this!

 

I do consider the position of the cards, and read Coffin at the end of a line as something is dead, full stop.

At the beginning of a line, I have more difficulty with it, and I have seen it in other readings as New Beginning, but here, especially with Cross after it, I guessed the word No… 

[Mister]

12 hours ago, Mediolanum said:

I have to say that I was a little taken aback by my reading, as this person and I got on extremely well during our long flight, and I thought that it’d be fun to hang out with like minded people. Oh well!

 

It happens in both directions - as an example: A person has to work with another, and thinks to themselves: "Why Me?!" - turns out the workflow is awesome.

Often, it is foreshadowed, and such comes to light if brought to question.

Your one line above is more of a "sceletons in the closet" kind of thing, though.

Also, I quite like @joy's "repeated struggle" (or "crisis over and over again") take on the matter.

 

12 hours ago, Mediolanum said:

I have seen it in other readings as New Beginning, but here, especially with Cross after it, I guessed the word No…

 

The New Beginning thingy does occur!

However, I have seen it only when the coffin is followed by cards positive and strong enough to eradicate the "rotten scent" of it, particularly the sun as a single one, followed by something neutral, clover and child together (crisis over, chance for growth), or a bouquet under a starry sky.

[joy]

6 hours ago, Mister said:

The New Beginning thingy does occur!

However, I have seen it only when the coffin is followed by cards positive and strong enough to eradicate the "rotten scent" of it, particularly the sun as a single one, followed by something neutral, clover and child together (crisis over, chance for growth), or a bouquet under a starry sky.

That is interesting! Will make a note of that it sounds very logical to me! Thanks!

[Mediolanum]

7 hours ago, joy said:

That is interesting! Will make a note of that it sounds very logical to me! Thanks!

In your experience, is there ever a time when Coffin is a positive card? Or does it only ever become positive when it is followed by a positive card?

[Mister]

9 hours ago, Mediolanum said:

...Is there ever a time when Coffin is a positive card? Or does it only ever become positive when it is followed by a positive card?

The latter one applies.

On it's own, it is not.

Take a one card draw in the morning.

With the coffin, I'd assume a headache over a fresh and inspiring start of the day.

[joy]

Yes I think the Coffin can be a positive card it all depends on the question. For example you have a stalker and ask how this will progress. If you then get the Coffin it means it is over. I think then it is a good card to have.

[Krystalida]

My experience till now with Coffin as a "positive" omen was in combo with the Birds and it meant reconciliation in a relationship, I saw it manifesting this way twice till now. 

Kind of talking over the "end".

I also noticed a Cross - Coffin - Stars combo coming before a reconciliation I would never guess it though if I didn't experienced it. 

 

 

 

 

[Mister]

The specific weight certain cards bring to the plus-/minus-scales tends to change from person to person.

Personally, as it is a stable heavy-hitter when it is me handling the cards, I'd have to be very careful with interpreting the coffin in a positive way.

In case of a stalking-issue, it would put me on edge - not so for @joy!

 

In that regard, @Krystalida's discovery (cross - coffin - stars) is interesting on the double:

#1: I would regard it as more negative than Mediolanums spread up there (due to the positioning of the cross), alas, it foreshadowed a reconciliation!

So I've got to ask: What's up with that? Was it a line of three or was it part of another layout?

 

#2: It does have a likeness to @Mediolanum's line, does it not?

Might well be worth it to hit the guy up despite the negative line and check things out, in order to see how the cards work when it is you handling them.

After all, if we disregard the classical plus-/minus-value attached to the cards, we have organic matter in a box (plane with passengers), an action born from need (talking to pass time), and a sign of relationship (ring).

Such experiments may come with a certain risk-factor better not underestimated - Or so I say. It is up to each's own.

Of course, I am all for disregarding the risk factor and indulging in curiosity - provides way better entertainment.

😇

[Krystalida]

19 hours ago, Mister said:

In that regard, @Krystalida's discovery (cross - coffin - stars) is interesting on the double:

#1: I would regard it as more negative than Mediolanums spread up there (due to the positioning of the cross), alas, it foreshadowed a reconciliation!

So I've got to ask: What's up with that? Was it a line of three or was it part of another layout?

 I went back to see the readings again, it is true the 3 card combo it actually came after the reconciliation now that i saw the dates, and were on the left of the significators in the 1st column of a GT ffrom the top to bottom, so maybe it could be like what is left behinD?!

Like Tarot I find Lenormand sometimes to say something different,they are absolutely more specific than tarot! But I did notice some oxymoron statements from the cards 🙂

[Mediolanum]

On 7/29/2023 at 7:26 PM, Mister said:

The specific weight certain cards bring to the plus-/minus-scales tends to change from person to person.

Personally, as it is a stable heavy-hitter when it is me handling the cards, I'd have to be very careful with interpreting the coffin in a positive way.

In case of a stalking-issue, it would put me on edge - not so for @joy!

 

In that regard, @Krystalida's discovery (cross - coffin - stars) is interesting on the double:

#1: I would regard it as more negative than Mediolanums spread up there (due to the positioning of the cross), alas, it foreshadowed a reconciliation!

So I've got to ask: What's up with that? Was it a line of three or was it part of another layout?

 

#2: It does have a likeness to @Mediolanum's line, does it not?

Might well be worth it to hit the guy up despite the negative line and check things out, in order to see how the cards work when it is you handling them.

After all, if we disregard the classical plus-/minus-value attached to the cards, we have organic matter in a box (plane with passengers), an action born from need (talking to pass time), and a sign of relationship (ring).

Such experiments may come with a certain risk-factor better not underestimated - Or so I say. It is up to each's own.

Of course, I am all for disregarding the risk factor and indulging in curiosity - provides way better entertainment.

😇

Coffin can be an airplane, very true. I forgot about that meaning. And Cross as an action born from need? I didn’t know that Cross could mean “need”.

 

The risk in this case, I feel, is very low, as I know where this person works and can easily cross check everything they have told me…

 

Still, there are enough positive cards I could have got without the Coffin and Cross showing up. I still feel that this connection might be bothersome to the other party (because of their spouse, I think).

[Mister]

8 hours ago, Krystalida said:

 I went back to see the readings again, it is true the 3 card combo it actually came after the reconciliation now that i saw the dates, and were on the left of the significators in the 1st column of a GT ffrom the top to bottom, so maybe it could be like what is left behinD?!

Then, my buffledness can safely subside.

If it was a GT, proximity comes into play way stronger than with lines of three or five.

"What is left behind/what happened in the past" both are safe takes to incorporate for columns "behind" the significator (i.e. to the left or right, depending on whatever you use to determine where the front is [order of laying out the cards/ direction a significator is looking towards]).

 

2 hours ago, Mediolanum said:

And Cross as an action born from need? I didn’t know that Cross could mean “need”.

This way: From the effect of the cross-card to diminish what is in front while strengthening what comes thereafter, plus a certain direness (because: cross), "an action born from need" is reached.

Whip-cross-stars for example has the potential to really bring things forward, if carefully mediated.

 

2 hours ago, Mediolanum said:

Still, there are enough positive cards I could have got without the Coffin and Cross showing up.

Such it is.

[Mediolanum]

20 hours ago, Mister said:

Then, my buffledness can safely subside.

If it was a GT, proximity comes into play way stronger than with lines of three or five.

"What is left behind/what happened in the past" both are safe takes to incorporate for columns "behind" the significator (i.e. to the left or right, depending on whatever you use to determine where the front is [order of laying out the cards/ direction a significator is looking towards]).

 

This way: From the effect of the cross-card to diminish what is in front while strengthening what comes thereafter, plus a certain direness (because: cross), "an action born from need" is reached.

Whip-cross-stars for example has the potential to really bring things forward, if carefully mediated.

 

Such it is.

I’m curious: do you ever use the concept of “fated” when you see “ cross”?
Also, I was thinking that “ship” might make a better airplane? Again, I’m seeing the cards that I didn’t get and which would have made my reading more upbeat 😉

 

So  would you “translate” whip - cross - stars? Arguments bring needed clarity?

[DanielJUK]

We're starting to stray from this thread discussing Coffin, please start separate threads about other individual cards or general discussions about combinations etc can go in the main Lenormand area

[Mister]

8 hours ago, Mediolanum said:

I’m curious: do you ever use the concept of “fated” when you see “ cross”?

I do not use the concept of "fated" at all, so no.

I've seen too many go down while stuck with "fate", therefore I feel it is something best left to it's own devices.

 

8 hours ago, Mediolanum said:

So  would you “translate” whip - cross - stars? Arguments bring needed clarity?

That's the gist of it.

 

8 hours ago, Mediolanum said:

Also, I was thinking that “ship” might make a better airplane? Again, I’m seeing the cards that I didn’t get and which would have made my reading more upbeat 😉

True.

So, back on topic: The coffin seems to have highlighted the stuck-in-the-box aspect (I believe there's one pack with No.8 as someone in a sardine's can) - also, it mirrors the ring.

Which may point towards something most straightforward described as a "rotten relationship", given that we are not dealing with "Decease, Burial & Sons".

If asking a question based on a positive expectation and the coffin pops up without stuff to leverage the issue towards the affirmative side, I deal with it as a rather potent "Nope".