Expectations from a Guidebook

[NA01]

When buying a tarot deck with a guide book, what is it that you expect to be included in a tarot guidebook?

[Raggydoll]

A description/explanation of symbolism, keywords and musings on the vision for the card (or on the essence of the card). That’s what I would like to find. Especially if someone has created a deck that isn’t a clone or heavily based on previous decks/systems. If it’s a rws clone, for instance, then I’d likely not even open the book. I think it is nice when a deck creator is providing a new angle or fresh interpretations. That is the main factor that makes me read the book. My biggest pet peeve with physical guidebooks is if they won’t open easily or require a two hand grip to flip the pages. I have a couple of those and since the deck that they belong to more or less require you to study the guidebook, I have even consider getting rid of them because the guidebook is so hard to flip through. That’s how much it bothers me 😆

[gregory]

I'm with Raggy here. I want to know the thinking process of the creator. I do NOT want to see endless layouts of well known spreads with instructions I have seen all over the place; I prefer to make my own; it's a waste of paper.

 

Also - I DON'T want to re-read the "history of tarot" and "thou shalt wrappeth thy cards in black silk"  and cleanse them with salt in moonlight stuff. I shall do what I like with my cards, Tell me why you depict the images the way you did.

 

And YES, make the booklet readable. I'd rather have a pdf than one like the one I got the other day - hardcover and won't open properly. Or worse - a printable one with diagrams of how to print it that deliver a booklet that - won't fold. At All.

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

100% agree with Gregory.

I want to know your thinking on your art. Don't need or want a LWB with standard keywords or history. 

 

And I love PDF books because I can enlarge the print. And they don't take up any room. 

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, jayrrivera01 said:

When buying a tarot deck with a guide book, what is it that you expect to be included in a tarot guidebook?

What I like is along the same lines as what Raggy and gregory like. Notes on the creative process with explanations of why certain images were chosen. Card explanations and keywords, which may differ slightly - or a lot - from RWS/Thoth. I think Baba does guidebooks very well, both the ones for separate purchase and the LWBs. And the larger books should be separate and not in a set with the deck with those awful big boxes. 

A lot of guidebooks work off the assumption that the purchaser has never encountered a Tarot deck before. Hence the stuff like "How to Lay a Celtic Cross." And it may be true in a few cases, but new readers need much more than a guidebook. As for the rest of us, we have no need of it. It's a waste of perfectly good trees and paper.

What I expect is another story. In many cases, I expect all the pointless filler gregory mentioned, because I've seen so much of it. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by katrinka

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

My biggest pet peeve with physical guidebooks is if they won’t open easily or require a two hand grip to flip the pages. I have a couple of those and since the deck that they belong to more or less require you to study the guidebook, I have even consider getting rid of them because the guidebook is so hard to flip through. That’s how much it bothers me 😆

I generally put those facedown and open on the bed or table when I have to fiddle with the cards. But I agree, it would be nice if they would lay flat when open.
A really good guidebook for a great deck would justify the price of a nicely bound hardcover, I think. They lay so much flatter than paperbacks. And durability-wise, it makes sense for something that gets referenced a lot.

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by katrinka

[Cobweb]

I agree with most of what's already been said - yes to the creator's thoughts on the imagery & symbolism and no to another history of the tarot!

 

But I did want to add that I quite enjoy playing around with a new spread, particularly if it's a deck that's got a theme (so, if it's a fairytale deck, give me a spread called "finding Cinderella's lost slipper" or similar!  🙂 ).     Like others, I don't need another guide to the Celtic Cross, but  I've been disappointed recently when playing with a new deck to discover that the suggested spreads were just a 1 card draw, and then a standard 3 card spread, and 5 card spread.   I know I  can write my own, or google them, but I quite like a new spread to match the deck!  So I'd be impressed if the deck creator came up with a couple of inventive new spreads  in the guidebook.

 

And if we're talking full-on hardback reference books, I'd want an index.

[Guest]

If I am honest what I expect is something I have read several times before. What I should like to expect in something like the Elemental Tarot. Smith-Astrop explained their designs, but in a way that it ties together. So you understood the image. Then I would like to see original spreads and proper worked examples. I also prefer material by the artist, too. Chesca Potter’s writing on the Greenwood was a good example of why. The Victorian Romantic was good, too. 

 

Like Gregory, I do not want to read a history of the Tarot (which overemphasises the GD) or about how the cards connect to Jung’s theories. I really don’t want to hear about the Fool’s Journal. In addition I do not want spreads but no proper example readings. Tarot is for reading!

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

to be fair, about new readers maybe needing a little help, 20 years ago we didn't have ready access to 1000's of sites, so the publisher pretty much had to give the basics. That simply isn't needed anymore. 

Yes to a couple of fun new spreads. If the deck is a remake of RWS, save a tree. We've seen it all before. 

 

edited to add, I mean re: the companion whatever. We apparently have an endless appetite for new RWS decks in themes and colors. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by AJ-ish/Sharyn

[LogicalHue]

I don't personally mind if the descriptions are pretty basic and short, there are so many basic ideas for what cards mean, I like a bit of a lean in one direction from that particular deck. But when there's only a couple of words and they don't match up with the visuals on the card, that just drives me nuts. I expect and hope for any guidebook of whatever size to line up with the card and just give me a little more to go on for understanding the reading.

 

Longer guidebooks can be nice, but it really does drag a reading out, I wouldn't want too many decks with longer books.

[Raggydoll]

5 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

I don't personally mind if the descriptions are pretty basic and short, there are so many basic ideas for what cards mean, I like a bit of a lean in one direction from that particular deck. But when there's only a couple of words and they don't match up with the visuals on the card, that just drives me nuts. I expect and hope for any guidebook of whatever size to line up with the card and just give me a little more to go on for understanding the reading.

 

Longer guidebooks can be nice, but it really does drag a reading out, I wouldn't want too many decks with longer books.

Yes, I agree. The descriptions and the images must match. And I’m also not keen on when the creator has elaborated so much that they describe things that you never would have been able to deduce from the artwork. I think that can happen when the associations are very personal. 

[ilweran]

23 hours ago, katrinka said:

A really good guidebook for a great deck would justify the price of a nicely bound hardcover, I think. They lay so much flatter than paperbacks. And durability-wise, it makes sense for something that gets referenced a lot.

This, though definitely has to be properly bound. If it's just glued it might as well be a paperback. 

 

A nice hardback, colour illustrations, well written, written for the art rather than generic or obviously written before the art was finished...

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

all that luxury takes the price point beyond what most people will pay. 

Uusi's books are $35.00, not included with the deck. Julie Cuccia-Watt's run $30.00 and up and there have been several for each of her decks. 

I do have a number of decks with hardbound books and paperback books, some more successful than others in quality. 

The deck the OP has shown on another (locked) thread probably requires some serious explanations. 

The rule of thumb from any editor is keep it short, keep it simple. 

I have read the entire 2 volume Pollack books that go with Haindl Tarot, the Keeper of Words that goes with Legend the Arthurian, Tarot of the Spirit... all overlong in my personal opinion. My favorite is the format for the Enchanted by Zerner/Farber. Full color image on the left, a page of their thoughts on the right. 

Of course they had a big publisher contract behind them and a series of decks, makes a lot of difference in costs. 

Self published.. cost is a serious consideration. 

Other than the ones mentioned above, I've never read more than dipping in and out of all the companion books I have. 

Have any of you read all the companion books that came with your decks? 

Read all the small booklets? Read all the LWB's? 😉 I doubt it. Unless the artist is building a whole new world, there isn't much to write. 

[gregory]

I just got a cheap-ish deck with a hardback book. It seems no more durable than - say - the soft cover ones with Llewellyn decks.

[vulprix]

On 11/17/2020 at 7:42 AM, gregory said:

Also - I DON'T want to re-read the "history of tarot" and "thou shalt wrappeth thy cards in black silk"  and cleanse them with salt in moonlight stuff. I shall do what I like with my cards, Tell me why you depict the images the way you did.

Idk if anyone has said this yet but I found this hilarious 😄 Full agreement!

 

Though I prefer books written by the artist, I really admire Barbara Moore and Rachel Pollack’s work on guidebooks. Barbara especially can weave a good story into an interpretation key—like in the Tarot of the Hidden Realm.

 

I do not like long guidebooks...though the Thoth and similarly Qabalistic decks really may require them. And those, I’m down for. 🙂 

 

Spreads are nice too! I consider original spreads to be a special bonus.

[Raggydoll]

2 minutes ago, vulprix said:

Idk if anyone has said this yet but I found this hilarious 😄 Full agreement!

 

Yes it is very hilarious (and true! ) 😁

[katrinka]

6 hours ago, AJ-ish/Sharyn said:

all that luxury takes the price point beyond what most people will pay. 

 

I have to disagree. And it's kind of sad that hardcover books can be considered a luxury item these days. 
Back in the 90's, I bought the Ralph Blum set: runes in a bag, and a very nicely bound little hardcover book. Too bad the content was useless! That book is infamously bad. But the binding was wonderful. I don't think I paid a whole lot for the set. I couldn't have - I had very little to spend in those times.

It was a small book. That was a good idea. In most cases, you don't need War And Peace. Just a smaller, well bound book with the important stuff, no filler or excessive white space. If the Blum book had been any good, I'd have treasured it all my days. As it was, I think I ended up using it to prop a window open. But I really liked the format.

And those books we had when we were kids - Grossett & Dunlap, etc. - those were decent quality hardcovers, not luxury Folio editions (kids can be rough with things and parents tend not to spend top dollar) but good enough that you still see them on ebay in great condition. And they lay flat. 😁

 

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Uusi's books are $35.00, not included with the deck. Julie Cuccia-Watt's run $30.00 and up and there have been several for each of her decks. 

 

Alessandra Ventura's Sibilla book is close to $50 and it's paperback. It's a ripoff but it's the one decent Sibilla book in english, I'm not aware of any others.
Are Uusi's books hardcovers? If so, $35 isn't bad.

 

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I do have a number of decks with hardbound books and paperback books, some more successful than others in quality. 

 

True. I don't like those glossy hardbacks. (Remember the Druid Animal Oracle?) They feel cheap. I prefer that old style cloth finish. Dustjacket optional.
 

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The deck the OP has shown on another (locked) thread probably requires some serious explanations. 

 

Yes. I made my thoughts known over there. No comments necessary here.
 

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The rule of thumb from any editor is keep it short, keep it simple. 

 

That's a two edged sword. 
Concise with no filler is good.
Dumbed down is not. And what's with all the WHITE SPACE I'm seeing in books these days? We're paying for the extra paper and there's nothing there.
 

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I have read the entire 2 volume Pollack books that go with Haindl Tarot, the Keeper of Words that goes with Legend the Arthurian, Tarot of the Spirit... all overlong in my personal opinion. My favorite is the format for the Enchanted by Zerner/Farber. Full color image on the left, a page of their thoughts on the right. 

Of course they had a big publisher contract behind them and a series of decks, makes a lot of difference in costs. 

Self published.. cost is a serious consideration. 

Other than the ones mentioned above, I've never read more than dipping in and out of all the companion books I have. 

Have any of you read all the companion books that came with your decks? 

Read all the small booklets? Read all the LWB's? 😉 I doubt it. Unless the artist is building a whole new world, there isn't much to write. 

I read all the Baba companion books. They're interesting and useful (and they don't have all that white space!) They'd be wonderful as hardcovers, but there is the issue you mentioned: there's no big publisher involved, so hardcovers probably wouldn't be cost-effective. If there were, there would be some editor telling Karen to dumb it down and add WHITE SPACE. And that would be sad, indeed.

Of course there are the classics: the BoT, PKT, Wirth, etc. I read those, I consider them required.

And sometimes things are too bizarre not to read, like the LWB that comes with the Heron TdM. 🤣 It has no practical use - thus far neither myself nor my clients have "died from excesses incurred at an orgy" - but it's entertaining. 

But for the most part I glance at whatever accompanies a deck and if it doesn't look like there's anything I can use, I pass. That's why I don't like decks and books bundled together in a single package. If I'm paying, I like to be the one who decides if I need the book or not.

Edited November 18, 2020 by katrinka

[katrinka]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:32 AM, timtoldrum said:

Like Gregory, I do not want to read a history of the Tarot (which overemphasises the GD) 

Agreed. 
They make it out almost like Waite found the Tarot in a rubbish pile someplace and breathed new life into it, and that's not the case at all. Wirth, etc. would have been fine without him. 

 

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or about how the cards connect to Jung’s theories. 

 

The Jung/Fool's journey stuff makes me tune out and move on to something else right away. It's gotten to be a reflex, I don't even have to think about it. I don't use it in my reading, so why have it rattling around in my head? And I may be mistaken, I don't think that Eden Gray meant for the Fool's journey to become canon. Just a little exercise or something - have some fun with it and forget it.

Edited November 18, 2020 by katrinka

[Raggydoll]

@katrinka Uusi does not make hardbound books, it feels more like a flexi cover. I can’t attest to the quality because I don’t pick them up often. I liked that they weren’t too big though, but if my memory serves me then it’s a lot of white space in them (I will check and correct my statement if I was wrong)

 

ETA: I remembered correctly. To be honest, I think a separate, expensive guidebook feels overkill in this case.

 

 

 

[Grace]

My first question is define 'guide book'.

 

When I think of a LWB, the tiny flimsy saddle stitched guide that is no larger than the size of a card and lives in the same box as the deck, I expect at minimum a concise introduction that explains the creators influence and intent, and a brief description of each card. A couple spreads in the back are nice but not mandatory. My expectation is that a LWB is succinct. Real estate is valuable and the more pages that thing has the more annoying it is to use so it needs to be incisive, clear and to the point. You can leave out the 'what is tarot'. This is my favourite kind of 'guide book'.

 

Besides the LWB, you have the chunkier perfect bound books which may or may not be larger than the cards themselves, and may or may not live with the deck. I am GENERALLY less of a fan of this style. Though they tend to be prettier, include little anecdotes, images, or charts that might be required that won't fit in a LWB. These have the real estate to hold superfluous information, and it can be fun and perhaps even better suited to some decks. But as suggested by others, harder to hold in one hand and therefore a bit of a pain. 

 

I'm afraid I'm a fan of the old ugly LWB from a functional perspective.

[Niobium]

Be it guide book or LWB, the main thing I'm looking for is an explanation of the imagery chosen and how they feel it fits the card's symbolism. In any deck this is important, but most especially if it's a deck which isn't using a known/widely recognized framework, or is but has mapped it onto something unobvious/esoteric. And even when it is eg. RWS, I still like to read the artist/author's thoughts, because they'll often mention something I'd not have thought of which will make a reading really click for me.

 

A good example is in the Jonasa Jaus tarot, the Hierophant has some very interesting imagery (right hand card):

 

 

I was struggling to sort out its meaning in the context of a reading I was doing. I couldn't really find a fit that felt right. So I checked the guide that Jaus provides, and one of the things they mentioned was a rite of passage. Not only does this card scream that to me, it made perfect sense in that setting, and the reading clicked perfectly. So I really appreciate even a spare LWB or booklet that still gives these kinds of personal takes on what informed the card. IMO they can be highly illuminating. Every deck is so different, even a nice, concise pamphlet is helpful.

 

Thirding/Fourthing/etc. what @gregory said, about 'I don't want the history of tarot'. Could not agree more. I'm not reading that. I'm not! Tell me why you chose image X for card Y. That's what I want to know, need to know to use your deck.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Niobium

[Raggydoll]

I agree that the history of tarot is something I don't need to have in a guidebook - I have separate books for that. I doesn't bug me if its there, but what does bug me is how the information is usually incorrect or unclear stated. If I see claims of 'true' mysterious origins of tarot, that does not line up with what any history books on tarot says, then that will definitely put me off. One other thing that I have seen a couple of times is that the author has poor spelling and will write things like "Pamela Coleman Smith" or the "Ryder Waite tarot"  or "Arthur E Wait". I believe I have also seen misspellings of Visconti-Sforza. It may not seem like a biggie but it still bothers me because it feels sloppy! I just think that if you decide to write a history chapter, then do the research and pay some attention. Otherwise, just skip it. (I indeed plan on skipping it in my own guidebook.)  

[ilweran]

14 hours ago, vulprix said:

Though I prefer books written by the artist, I really admire Barbara Moore and Rachel Pollack’s work on guidebooks. Barbara especially can weave a good story into an interpretation key—like in the Tarot of the Hidden Realm.

 

I do like The Hidden Realm book. And the Shadowscapes.

 

11 hours ago, katrinka said:

And it's kind of sad that hardcover books can be considered a luxury item these days. 

 

I used to like buying hardbacks, they look lovely on a shelf. Then most mass produced hardbacks changed to cheaper binding and I largely switched to paperbacks (or eBooks). The current fashion for beautifully designed covers with cheap binding really annoys me. I want a beautiful cover and decent binding!

 

11 hours ago, katrinka said:

And what's with all the WHITE SPACE I'm seeing in books these days? We're paying for the extra paper and there's nothing there.

 

Well, I partially disagree there. If the layout is nicely designed white space can add something. But that's personal preference, I'd prefer something more like an art book perhaps.

 

17 hours ago, AJ-ish/Sharyn said:

Have any of you read all the companion books that came with your decks? 

 

Not all of them, no. The ones that interest me, yes. So, off the top of my head... Greenwood, Hidden Realm, Shadowscapes, Llewellyn, Dreampower, Bohemian Gothic (did most of the writing exercises as well, the BG book is great!)

[gregory]

42 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

I agree that the history of tarot is something I don't need to have in a guidebook - I have separate books for that. I doesn't bug me if its there, but what does bug me is how the information is usually incorrect or unclear stated. If I see claims of 'true' mysterious origins of tarot, that does not line up with what any history books on tarot says, then that will definitely put me off. One other thing that I have seen a couple of times is that the author has poor spelling and will write things like "Pamela Coleman Smith" or the "Ryder Waite tarot"  or "Arthur E Wait". I believe I have also seen misspellings of Visconti-Sforza. It may not seem like a biggie but it still bothers me because it feels sloppy! I just think that if you decide to write a history chapter, then do the research and pay some attention. Otherwise, just skip it. (I indeed plan on skipping it in my own guidebook.)  

 

A recent acquisition has the Waite-Smith deck art done by Patricia Smith.... I haven't been able to face the rest of the book.

Ryder Waite - and its sister, the Raider Waite - show up far too often on forums - including here. I never QUITE like to correct....

 

I do actually like ALL Barbara Moore's guidebooks. I will never understand why some idiot (LLewellyn, let's be honest) packed Ellershaw's book in with the Gilded as the "Easy Tarot" kit, instead of Barbara's, which is so on point that I thought Ciro had written it...

[stephanelli]

18 hours ago, AJ-ish/Sharyn said:

all that luxury takes the price point beyond what most people will pay.

 

I disagree with this too.  I would happily pay extra for a decent guidebook with decent content.

 

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Have any of you read all the companion books that came with your decks? 

Read all the small booklets? Read all the LWB's? 😉 I doubt it. Unless the artist is building a whole new world, there isn't much to write. 

Actually, yes.  To really make the most of a deck I have to know where the creator and artist were coming from.  So before I start working with a deck I will genuinely read the guidebook cover to cover.  It's probably the only time I will, but I think it is important to do.

 

The best guidebook I have ever used is The Spirit of Herbs that goes with The Herbal Tarot by Micheal Tierra and Candis Cantin.

It is amazing.  It has a lot of stuff about herbs to start with, then lengthy descriptions and interpretations of each cards symbolism AND a separate section for the herb too.  It goes into detail over the suites and also includes some spreads specifically for that deck.  But it's not too much filler it's genuinely useful stuff.

And without that guidebook, my readings with that deck would be nearly useless.

 

Unfortunately, this was my first deck so my guidebook expectations are pretty high 😆

I would happily have a large book dedicated to each deck.