The Tarot Fortune Cards - Elemental Associations

[katrinka]

55 minutes ago, _R_ said:

 

Speaking of Poinsot, I came across a bunch of articles he wrote on various aspects of cartomancy in the French newspaper archives; I will see if there is anything interesting in there, but perhaps not for the immediate future.

 

I would say there IS. 😁 Please do keep us posted!
Enamored though I am with Minetta, Poinsot's writings are certainly top tier!

Edited December 20, 2020 by katrinka

[katrinka]

As for Alf Cooke, this Joker looks like it was quite possibly done by the same artist:

 

 

Source: https://www.wopc.co.uk/alfcooke/chess

[Guest]

Hi @katrinka

 

I am sorry for my tardiness; today is the first day I ventured out of bed. I have had the flu (COVID-19 test was, thankfully, clear). 
 

Unfortunately, I’ve had no luck thus far finding the archives. Due to the varied mergers and acquisitions it is not straightforward. Sadly, I am not too hopeful of finding much. 
 

I did contact some antique dealers that specialise in playing cards. My aim was to ascertain how many artists Alf Cooke would have had on their books in c. 1934/35.  None had much information to offer.  

I will continue in the New Year. I am trying to source a copy of the magazine issue — it may have information.

 

Minetta is a fantastic source. Unlike some of the writers of her time, Minetta (whoever she was) was a practising fortune-teller. So she can offer a lot of insight on a practical level and certainly helped me fill in blanks.

 

As you know, my first tarot teachers did not use pips. So I am self taught in terms of the “lesser arcana.”
 

After struggling with Smith-Astrop’s system (great system but not so much for event-oriented readings), I found a copy of Charles Platt’s book which was later re-published as by Sepharial. I found the pip meanings in the tarot chapter, in that text (available online I believe), perfect. I couldn’t get a full TdM deck at that time (1980s) so was using the Prediction Tarot by Peter Richardson. I still use those meanings with that deck and the Soprafino Tarot. 

 

Then, in the early 2000s, I went online and was told I was doing it wrong. I then tortured myself trying to find the right system - are batons diamonds or clubs, etc. 
 

Madeline Montalban used the TFC but used the Book of Fortune’s meanings. Quite a few English fortune tellers reading/learning in the 50-70s owe much to her. In the 80s and 90s the RWS/Fenton/Dee took over. 

 

I am more or less using the TFC and the Soprafino Tarot exclusively.  Shortly before I became ill, I got The Devil, 9 of Rods and 8 of Swords. I’ve always associated both the 8 of Swords and the Devil with illness, but so is the 9 in the TFC.  
 

It wasn’t coronavirus but it now means I’m isolating until the end of February, as I cannot have live vaccinations. I think that is the endurance.

 

The TFC are brilliant. It’s sad that we cannot put a name to its creators. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Guest

[Guest]

23 hours ago, katrinka said:

As for Alf Cooke, this Joker looks like it was quite possibly done by the same artist:

 

 

Source: https://www.wopc.co.uk/alfcooke/chess

Yes. That looks quite similar (sky and birds). Their Jokers in 1930s were blue lined like the TFC., too.

[katrinka]

6 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

I am sorry for my tardiness; today is the first day I ventured out of bed. I have had the flu (COVID-19 test was, thankfully, clear). 

 

Ouch. 
It will be a fine day when we don't have to worry about COVID every time we fall ill. But the flu is nasty enough. Wishing you a speedy and complete recovery.

 

Quote

Unfortunately, I’ve had no luck thus far finding the archives. Due to the varied mergers and acquisitions it is not straightforward. Sadly, I am not too hopeful of finding much. 
 

I did contact some antique dealers that specialise in playing cards. My aim was to ascertain how many artists Alf Cooke would have had on their books in c. 1934/35.  None had much information to offer.  

I will continue in the New Year. I am trying to source a copy of the magazine issue — it may have information.

 

Yes, she's a tough one. 
It's difficult enough finding information on Frankie Albano, and we have a name and birthdate for him. Minetta could be almost anyone.
 

Quote

Minetta is a fantastic source. Unlike some of the writers of her time, Minetta (whoever she was) was a practising fortune-teller. So she can offer a lot of insight on a practical level and certainly helped me fill in blanks.

The fact that she read professionally rules out the "author of respectable mundane books writing under a pseudonym" crowd - I think she was using a "stage name" rather than hiding. Maybe newspaper archives and/or old magazines would have her ads? There would be clues there, like an address or phone number.

 

Quote

As you know, my first tarot teachers did not use pips. So I am self taught in terms of the “lesser arcana.”
 

After struggling with Smith-Astrop’s system (great system but not so much for event-oriented readings), I found a copy of Charles Platt’s book which was later re-published as by Sepharial. I found the pip meanings in the tarot chapter, in that text (available online I believe), perfect. I couldn’t get a full TdM deck at that time (1980s) so was using the Prediction Tarot by Peter Richardson. I still use those meanings with that deck and the Soprafino Tarot. 

 

Then, in the early 2000s, I went online and was told I was doing it wrong. I then tortured myself trying to find the right system - are batons diamonds or clubs, etc.

 

There's no real consistency.
I even noticed that near the beginning of the book, Minetta corresponds Diamonds to Swords. But in her chapter on the Minors, she says Swords are "very dark", which is at odds with her description of Diamonds as "very fair." 
We have to find what works. 
 

Quote

 Madeline Montalban used the TFC but used the Book of Fortune’s meanings. Quite a few English fortune tellers reading/learning in the 50-70s owe much to her. In the 80s and 90s the RWS/Fenton/Dee took over. 

 

I am more or less using the TFC and the Soprafino Tarot exclusively.  Shortly before I became ill, I got The Devil, 9 of Rods and 8 of Swords. I’ve always associated both the 8 of Swords and the Devil with illness, but so is the 9 in the TFC.  
 

It wasn’t coronavirus but it now means I’m isolating until the end of February, as I cannot have live vaccinations. I think that is the endurance.

 

That makes a lot of sense. 
 

Quote

The TFC are brilliant. It’s sad that we cannot put a name to its creators. 

 

Agreed. And I hope that we can in time. 
Fame is no indicator of quality, just ego and promotion. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by katrinka

[devin]

15 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

I found a copy of Charles Platt’s book which was later re-published as by Sepharial. I found the pip meanings in the tarot chapter, in that text (available online I believe), perfect.

 

Is this the one? CHARLES PLATT - Card fortune telling; a lucid treatise dealing with all the popular and more abstruse methods https://archive.org/stream/cardfortunetelli00plat/cardfortunetelli00plat_djvu.txt Man, they don't title books like they used too. *Sigh*

 

Otherwise, hope you feel better soon, Mr. B.

Edited December 22, 2020 by devin

[Guest]

Yes. It was later republished under Sepharial with an additional chapter 

[TheLoracular]

I just found this thread today and need to bookmark it and read more slowly, taking some notes- I have to leave the house too soon to do that now.  But this is fascinating and teaching me things I wasn't aware of.  The history and nuances  of the continental tarot, especially French tarot, is something I'm still learning. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by TheLoracular

[Guest]

18 hours ago, katrinka said:

Ouch. 
It will be a fine day when we don't have to worry about COVID every time we fall ill. But the flu is nasty enough. Wishing you a speedy and complete recovery.

Thank you. It has not been pleasant (and still isn’t), but I count myself lucky. 

 

18 hours ago, katrinka said:

Yes, she's a tough one. 
It's difficult enough finding information on Frankie Albano, and we have a name and birthdate for him. Minetta could be almost anyone.

Sorry. I was referring to the TFC artist.
 

I have tried to ascertain the identity of Minetta several times; sadly, to no avail. Rider should know... but silence.

 

I do believe that Minetta and Cecily Kent are two separate people. In Kent’s book, she refers to a reader who read the daughter of a well-known figure, twice during the Great War, and I believe that woman was Minetta. Minetta was sometimes referred to as the society fortune teller. 

18 hours ago, katrinka said:

The fact that she read professionally rules out the "author of respectable mundane books writing under a pseudonym" crowd - I think she was using a "stage name" rather than hiding. Maybe newspaper archives and/or old magazines would have her ads? There would be clues there, like an address or phone number.

There are adds for her cards, but they direct you to her publisher. In addition, she was working at a time of political tolerance but not freedom. The

 

18 hours ago, katrinka said:

There's no real consistency.
I even noticed that near the beginning of the book, Minetta corresponds Diamonds to Swords. But in her chapter on the Minors, she says Swords are "very dark", which is at odds with her description of Diamonds as "very fair." 
We have to find what works. 

 

18 hours ago, katrinka said:

There's no real consistency.
I even noticed that near the beginning of the book, Minetta corresponds Diamonds to Swords. But in her chapter on the Minors, she says Swords are "very dark", which is at odds with her description of Diamonds as "very fair." 
We have to find what works. 

 
There are bits of the book that look (to me) edited. That is one of them — as Minetta, clearly, associates Diamonds and Deniers, and Spades and Swords. Like most fortune tellers of the time, she has a mixed view on Diamonds and Deniers. Deniers, for me, are seldom sympathetic figures — if the king helps, he will want payment. 

 

18 hours ago, katrinka said:

hat makes a lot of sense

  
Over time, we have seen a strong effort to standardise tarot. I remember Sasha Fenton writing how a (pip deck) Six of Swords reminded her of a boat moving from stormy seas! Jonathan Dee popularised keywords, and you see these still crop up such as source for the Ace of Swords and Completion for the World.

 

Ironically, most of this is supposedly Smith-Waite. But some of the standard meanings such as apprenticeship are not GD or Waite. It’s a misreading of Pixie’s designs. 
 

It is sad as tarot was very diverse with Papus, Sepharial, Picard, Lind,  Minetta, Montalban, et cetera.

 

With regards to polarity, I have found the trumps: 

 

Positive: Great Priest, Charioteer, Strength, Temperance, Star and the Sun.

Negative: Hanged Man, Death, Devil, the Tower, Moon and Fool.

 

The others are neutral.
 

These are the same as I use with the TDM. With RWS the Magician can sometimes be positive and the Hierophant neutral, but I’ve found that the TFC seem to align closer with older styles. Certainly trump I has proven neutral.

 

[katrinka]

Bumping this so the study group doesn't get hidden. Let's not forget it's here!

[legendaryelement]

Thank you!

 

Where would be an affordable place to buy a deck? I saw a listing on Tarot Collectibles (unavailable for Europe/UK) that says theirs is a replica.

[katrinka]

As far as I know, that IS the most affordable. Other than the replica, you'd be looking at a few hundred dollars for an antique copy. But that would certainly be a nice thing to own. I'd suggest putting in a saved ebay search.

The replica is excellent quality. If you're in Europe/UK, contact Tarot Collectibles. They might be willing to work something out.

 

I handle my replica quite a bit - lots of riffling, too - and it still looks brand new. I think that's the way to go with a practice deck. Maybe at a later date when everything about this deck is second nature, I'll look into getting an old one.