Tarot del Toro

[Helena]

I bought this deck today, the Tarot del Toro, and it is based on the TdM. I've only used RWS based decks before, so I'm a little confused. I get that the pips are read mostly numerologically with the suit, and this guidebook does tie in elements, but the descriptions in the guidebook for the numerology differ greatly from other TdM descriptions I've read. 

 

Example: all is fine until we get to the 6s. He relates the 6s to frustration, being unable to cope with the conflict of the 5s.

 

Then the 8s are all about defeat. 

 

A specific example in the guidebook is the 8 of discs, which he interprets as possible bankruptcy or major money losses. 

 

If I relate 8s to Justice, as other M materials say, that makes no sense to me. Unless it's a karmic thing? But if you were on the up and up, I'd say an 8 of discs would mean balanced prosperity. 

 

Here's a picture with some examples...a few major, and the ace, a pip, and a court from each suit. 

[Helena]

Ok...ok...a lot of thinking happening here and I think I've made a connection...so 6s can indicate frustration in the sense that they show a moving away from the conflict, whether by resolution or by turning away, as in the 6 of swords. 

 

Then the 8s don't necessarily indicate defeat, per se, but more of like whatever we were defending, strategizing, assessing, dreaming of in the 7s has not manifested in the victory of the chariot. Instead, we must regroup in the 8s. Find our balance again - justice. Hard work to rebuild the pentacles lost...we are now trapped by the 7 swords of deceit and must seek a new one to free ourselves...energy from no where has rained down upon us and defeated our defenses...we have to walk away from the dreams and illusions into the clarity to find our fulfillment. 

 

So maybe his example was a bit hyperbolic? Or even a reversal without specifically saying so? Idk...

 

Am I on the right track? 

[katrinka]

The deck seems very idiosyncratic. I don't think it can be shoehorned into what we think of as "standard" number-and-suit interpretations. 8 of Coins can be financial restrictions and a need to curtail spending, so you're definitely in the ballpark, but what's with that Ace of Cups? It's a skull, not a cathedral, so it's going to be very different from TdM. It can't be about the home (unless you're reading for Skeletor. 😁)

 

 

It does look like it might be a fun deck, kind of Valenza-ish. But I'd take it on its own terms and not try to force fit it to TdM just because it's a pip deck. If the 8s are defeat in this one, go with that. 

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by katrinka

[gregory]

What katrinka says. I have it and it is indeed great fun. But I try to take each deck I get on its own "merits" - look at it and go from there. It IS based around Toro's weird movies - and any deck that can incorporate Pan's Labyrinth and The Shape Of Water gets my vote !

 

I wish it weren't a pip deck; I'd love more images !

Edited January 31, 2021 by gregory

[Helena]

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

But I'd take it on its own terms and not try to force fit it to TdM just because it's a pip deck. If the 8s are defeat in this one, go with that. 

 

He does say at the end of the guidebook that the meanings are subjective, and what he has written is just his personal spin, so put your interpretations in there as well. So it's not necessarily that he's defining cards...just suggesting. 

 

2 hours ago, gregory said:

What katrinka says. I have it and it is indeed great fun. But I try to take each deck I get on its own "merits" - look at it and go from there. It IS based around Toro's weird movies - and any deck that can incorporate Pan's Labyrinth and The Shape Of Water gets my vote !

 

I wish it weren't a pip deck; I'd love more images !

Me too! The images on the majors and the court cards are stunning. The artwork is what got me to begin with. I saw it and went, oh my God! 

 

I'm having a hard time with the pip cards honestly. It's like trying to go backwards. Like the pips existed before, duh, but then the rws style decks pick a specific scene that could apply to that pip and that has become the associated meaning. But it doesn't work the other way around. When I was using the deck, my mind immediately went to the meaning I already know, but it felt like I was missing so much depth and possibility. 

 

It's like this class in college I took...concepts of modern algebra. I was a math major. In that class, we learn that our number system is really just a man-made definition based on our own needs, and there, in fact, are an infinite number of those systems. And we could define "addition", for example, any way we wanted to in our system. We use a base 10 system. The babylonians used a base 60...thus, seconds, minutes, and hours. 

 

Also number associations seem somewhat inconsistent on the internet when it comes to somethings I've read. Any suggestions there? Something you ascribe to perhaps? I thought I had them down, but in all my digging, I found so many, that now I'm like, well s---. If nothing else, I'm going to learn something from this deck lol. I like it, and I definitely was drawn to it, but I'm frustrated by it, which means it has something to teach me 😉

 

[katrinka]

8 hours ago, Helena said:

He does say at the end of the guidebook that the meanings are subjective, and what he has written is just his personal spin, so put your interpretations in there as well. So it's not necessarily that he's defining cards...just suggesting. 

 

But then there's the images on some of the cards, like that Ace of Cups. Compare it to a traditional Marseilles Ace of Cups:

 

I'll allow that TdM is subjective in the sense that people use variant reading methods. But the Tarot del Toro seems to be very much its own thing, the artist's vision. 

As for the bit about "the meanings are subjective, and what he has written is just his personal spin, so put your interpretations in there as well" - with cards, disclaimers like that are near-obligatory. There's a sizable faction of people who get VERY huffy when you try to instruct them. They might even ask for help, but when you say something is best done a certain way, they'll act like their rights are being violated and respond with "Don't tell me what to do!" 🙄 So you see a lot of instructive texts watered down with such statements. A YMMV-type disclaimer can avert a lot of screeching. The guy wants to sell decks, he doesn't want people going on youtube saying "Who does he think he is, Moses coming down from the mountain? Don't tell me what to do!"

This particular neuroticism seems to be confined to card reading circles. At least I haven't seen anyone have a meltdown over a statement like "1/4 teaspoon salt" or "use in a well-ventilated area". But I could be wrong. (ETA: It occurs to me that there IS something else that elicits this response in some people: masks. Yikes.)
 

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I'm having a hard time with the pip cards honestly. It's like trying to go backwards. Like the pips existed before, duh, but then the rws style decks pick a specific scene that could apply to that pip and that has become the associated meaning. But it doesn't work the other way around. When I was using the deck, my mind immediately went to the meaning I already know, but it felt like I was missing so much depth and possibility. 

 

You'll get used to number-and-suit. It's been compared to learning to drive a stick. There's an adjustment period, but it's well worth the effort. 😉
 

Quote

 

It's like this class in college I took...concepts of modern algebra. I was a math major. In that class, we learn that our number system is really just a man-made definition based on our own needs, and there, in fact, are an infinite number of those systems. And we could define "addition", for example, any way we wanted to in our system. We use a base 10 system. The babylonians used a base 60...thus, seconds, minutes, and hours. 

 

Also number associations seem somewhat inconsistent on the internet when it comes to somethings I've read. Any suggestions there? Something you ascribe to perhaps? I thought I had them down, but in all my digging, I found so many, that now I'm like, well s---. If nothing else, I'm going to learn something from this deck lol. I like it, and I definitely was drawn to it, but I'm frustrated by it, which means it has something to teach me 😉

I read most pip decks the same as playing cards, it just makes sense to do it that way.
This is a good resource with enough information to get started: https://artofcartomancy.blogspot.com/p/cartomancy-card-meanings.html
And there are gems to be had here. (Watch for the coming Fortuna's Picturebook.): https://damefatespicturebook.com/

And this - I can't stress enough how important these historical perspectives are. https://traditionaltarot.wordpress.com/

But this is not a standard pip deck. I'd take my cue from the LWB a far as numbers go.
 

Edited January 31, 2021 by katrinka

[Helena]

15 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 

I can't get that stupid box to go away...sorry it's just gonna be there. I was gonna quote you, then decided against it, then couldn't undo it...idk. 

 

First, 😂😂😂 at the mask comment. 

Second, I feel like this is a stupid question, but when you say LWB, do you mean the one that came with this deck or another standard one? Cuz you say you wouldn't be able to fit it all to this deck, so I wondered if I misunderstood. 

And lastly, thank you for the resources! I agree with historical context.

 

Driving a stick is a very good analogy 🙂

[katrinka]

3 minutes ago, Helena said:

Second, I feel like this is a stupid question, but when you say LWB, do you mean the one that came with this deck or another standard one? Cuz you say you wouldn't be able to fit it all to this deck, so I wondered if I misunderstood. 

  
It's not a stupid question. Just because something I wrote is crystal clear to me doesn't mean I've communicated it clearly. Writing is full of such hazards.
I meant the one that comes with the deck. (What I wouldn't be able to fit to this deck is TdM/playing card material.)
Tarot del Toro seems to be a world unto itself. So, use the intruction booklet, the images, Pan's Labyrinth references, any of that. Not standard TdM resources. 😉

[Helena]

34 minutes ago, katrinka said:

  
It's not a stupid question. Just because something I wrote is crystal clear to me doesn't mean I've communicated it clearly. Writing is full of such hazards.
I meant the one that comes with the deck. (What I wouldn't be able to fit to this deck is TdM/playing card material.)
Tarot del Toro seems to be a world unto itself. So, use the intruction booklet, the images, Pan's Labyrinth references, any of that. Not standard TdM resources. 😉

Got it...yeah, even reading all the resources, I still feel like it doesn't fit. I'm so hung up on the 6s and the 8s. 6s are seeking some sort of peace,  harmony, and joy. That makes sense with the lovers. The only way I make frustration out of that is to say out of frustration, one seeks peace and harmony, but it still feels forced.

 

8s are balanced. I see now why changing justice from card 8 to card 11 makes a difference. Strength based 8s are different than justice based 8s. But I can't force defeat into either one of those. There's no imagery on the pips to suggest it either. 

 

 

and...AND...rws got those meanings from somewhere. It's not like they were just made up...simplified and specified maybe, but I don't see a total overhaul there. Am I wrong? 

 

I'm mad. 😠

Edited January 31, 2021 by Helena

[katrinka]

15 minutes ago, Helena said:

8s are balanced. I see now why changing justice from card 8 to card 11 makes a difference. Strength based 8s are different than justice based 8s. But I can't force defeat into either one of those. There's no imagery on the pips to suggest it either. 

Well, in that case: is there another card or cards in the deck that can represent defeat? As long as it's in there someplace...

 

17 minutes ago, Helena said:

and...AND...rws got those meanings from somewhere. It's not like they were just made up...simplified and specified maybe, but I don't see a total overhaul there. Am I wrong?

 

It's confusing trying to source all his meanings. Waite got some of his Minors stuff from playing card reading methods. The GD would have tweaked things to fit their correspondences. I've also read that PCS was given free rein with the Minors. And of course Waite fudged it all a little so the secrets of his order wouldn't fall into the hands of the unwashed masses. 🙄 So it's a mishmash. 

But if you look at the Majors, RWS is a big departure from the older Tarots. The TdM Fool is a lunatic. The Magician is a mountebanke, not a ceremonial magician. And so on. Nobody puts a halo on a pittura infamante. RWS is mysticism. TdM is edgier, more streetwise. It's a gaming deck from the taverns.

So, not a total overhaul. But a pretty sizable one.

 

23 minutes ago, Helena said:

I'm mad. 😠

Welcome to my world, lol. 
 

[Helena]

@katrinka lol...I enjoy you. This whole attempt has left me feeling pretty sophomoric. So much I don't know. I totally get the edgier feel to it...it has sharper edges, and not just because it's based on his weird horror images...it's a whole different feeling. It's very un-spiritual to me, which makes sense with how the Golden Dawn introduced kabbalah and the mysticism. Yeah, the fool in this deck is not some starry eyed teen making a leap of faith into his art, or whatever...he is identitiless (is that a word) and almost like a...what's the word...lol the only thing that comes to mind are the changelings from my little pony...thanks daughter.

 

But the history of all this...that really makes the context. I must study that more. I must descend into the caverns. Also, I gotta finish watching pans labyrinth to understand all his majors. And probably hellboy. 

 

Forgot about your question whether there is another card that could represent defeat...he defines the 10s as a sterile closure to a process. I suppose defeat could be somewhere in there. Defeat is an option for closure. 10 of swords fits depending on context. Say paired with death or the tower...possibly reversed. 10: sterile closure. Swords: air (he uses the elemental association), movement, agility, violence...typical uses for literal swords. He does not mention logic or thinking...however, if the mind is a matter of electricity, it fits with air. That's mine tho. So, a sterile closure to a violent encounter...reversed...is not in your favor. ?

Edited February 1, 2021 by Helena

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, Helena said:

This whole attempt has left me feeling pretty sophomoric. So much I don't know.

 

I've been doing this most of my life and I still feel sophomoric sometimes. 
Maybe @timtoldrum or @_R_ will stop in and clarify some of this better than I can. 🙂
 

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I totally get the edgier feel to it...it has sharper edges, and not just because it's based on his weird horror images...it's a whole different feeling. It's very un-spiritual to me, which makes sense with how the Golden Dawn introduced kabbalah and the mysticism.

 

It was there before the Dawn. Levi and Wirth certainly did it, albeit differently. And there's theories that some Jewish mysticism is embedded in the TdM itself, which makes sense given that the dominant society wasn't very accepting of these things. 

 

Quote

Yeah, the fool in this deck is not some starry eyed teen making a leap of faith into his art, or whatever...he is identitiless (is that a word) and almost like a...what's the word...lol the only thing that comes to mind are the changelings from my little pony...thanks daughter. But he's the faun that has forgotten his identity and must go back to the labyrinth to find it. 

 

Yes...he's closer to the old Fool.
I can see making Tarot all spiritual for meditation purposes, but for reading, no. Most questions concern lust or money, lol.
 

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But the history of all this...that really makes the context. I must study that more. I must descend into the caverns. Also, I gotta finish watching pans labyrinth to understand all his majors. And probably hellboy. 

 

Study without drudgery is always nice. 🤣
 

Quote

Forgot about your question whether there is another card that could represent defeat...he defines the 10s as a sterile closure to a process. I suppose defeat could be somewhere in there. Defeat is an option for closure. 10 of swords fits depending on context. Say paired with death or the tower...possibly reversed. 10: sterile closure. Swords: air (he uses the elemental association), movement, agility, violence...typical uses for literal swords. He does not mention logic or thinking...however, if the mind is a matter of electricity, it fits with air. That's mine tho. So, a sterile closure to a violent encounter...reversed...is not in your favor. ?

That's a bit of a reach, and a little too specific. You need a nice generic defeat card that can stretch to fit anything from a hand of poker to a war, IMHO.

Edited February 1, 2021 by katrinka

[Helena]

53 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 

I've been doing this most of my life and I still feel sophomoric sometimes. 
Maybe @timtoldrum or @_R_ will stop in and clarify some of this better than I can. 🙂
 

 

It was there before the Dawn. Levi and Wirth certainly did it, albeit differently. And there's theories that some Jewish mysticism is embedded in the TdM itself, which makes sense given that the dominant society wasn't very accepting of these things. 

 

 

Yes...he's closer to the old Fool.
I can see making Tarot all spiritual for meditation purposed, but for reading, no. Most questions concern lust or money, lol.
 

 

Study without drudgery is always nice. 🤣
 

That's a bit of a reach, and a little too specific. You need a nice generic defeat card that can stretch to fit anything from a hand of poker to a war, IMHO.

Well, I was more trying to plead my case based in a specific example without using any rws imagery or preconceived meaning. But I would apply the 10 of swords, especially reversed, to any defeat, and then the surrounding cards would tell me what sort of defeat.

 

What card do you attribute to defeat, not taking into account del Toro's descriptions?

Edited February 1, 2021 by Helena

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Helena said:

What card do you attribute to defeat, not taking into account del Toro's descriptions?

In a general sense, I don't want to see any Swords/Spades in a question about winning or losing, as they can all imply losses. 
But the most specific defeat card is the 9, I think. The 10 is more final: You lose, and you don't get to come back and spin the wheel again. 

[Niobium]

Belatedly, I agree that I was sad to see these were pips, because the art on the courts and majors is so amazing, I was d y i n g for a fully illustrated deck of it all. But it wasn't terribly expensive and is very good quality, so you know.

[Helena]

16 minutes ago, katrinka said:

In a general sense, I don't want to see any Swords/Spades in a question about winning or losing, as they can all imply losses. 
But the most specific defeat card is the 9, I think. The 10 is more final: You lose, and you don't get to come back and spin the wheel again. 

I see what you're saying. It's the act of ending. Tens are done. 

[Guest]

15 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

I've been doing this most of my life and I still feel sophomoric sometimes. 
Maybe @timtoldrum or @_R_ will stop in

 

Sadly, I am not going to be much help as I have never seen these cards before. 

 

Over time, numerous systems for the pips have been developed. No one is better than the other. In my own time I’ve used several and all

worked. 
 

I am aware of several that have more negative-leaning associations for the sixes. A few of these are built around odd and even numbers, with the latter being more challenging.

 

Purely on memory, Sédillot includes dilemmas and choices (but also beauty) and Silvestre sacrifices and ordeal. They say fives represent protection and development and harmony and balance, respectively. If I remember correctly, Marteau has sixes as harmonious balance.
 

The Golden Dawn negative fives comes from their assignment to Geburah. Theoretically, you could apply these (Book T) to the pips as the Golden Dawn’s own deck had pips . From my understanding, most used the Marseille and Sopraffino decks.  My pet peeve,  however, is using the “RWS” associations as most of these “meanings” are distortions, e.g. the 7 of Cups as choices and goals. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Guest

[Helena]

22 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

 

Sadly, I am not going to be much help as I have never seen these cards before. 

 

Over time, numerous systems for the pips have been developed. No one is better than the other. In my own time I’ve used several and all

worked. 
 

I am aware of several that have more negative-leaning associations for the sixes. A few of these are built around odd and even numbers, with the latter being more challenging.

 

Purely on memory, Sédillot includes dilemmas and choices (but also beauty) and Silvestre sacrifices and ordeal. They say fives represent protection and development and harmony and balance, respectively. If I remember correctly, Marteau has sixes as harmonious balance.
 

The Golden Dawn negative fives comes from their assignment to Geburah. Theoretically, you could apply these (Book T) to the pips as the Golden Dawn’s own deck had pips . From my understanding, most used the Marseille and Sopraffino decks.  My pet peeve,  however, is using the “RWS” associations as most of these “meanings” are distortions, e.g. the 7 of Cups as choices and goals. 

I feel like this whole endeavor is a 7 of cups lol...interpreted correctly or not. With so many choices, options, opinions, and possibilities, what does one do? 

 

Also, I should clarify that the guidebook with this deck was not written by Guillermo del Toro. The foreword was, but the guidebook itself and the illustrations were by someone else. 

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Helena said:

I feel like this whole endeavor is a 7 of cups lol...interpreted correctly or not. With so many choices, options, opinions, and possibilities, what does one do? 

 

Also, I should clarify that the guidebook with this deck was not written by Guillermo del Toro. The foreword was, but the guidebook itself and the illustrations were by someone else. 

 

Choose. That isn’t very helpful, is it?  But it is all one can do. 

 

None of the first Tarot readers I knew employed the pip cards. So much so I was convinced my first deck (elemental) was an aberration for including 56 extra cards. It had a number + suit method. 

 

Later I found a book by Charles Platt, called Card Fortune Telling, and had by then acquired a pip deck. I used his pip meanings (tweaked for necessity, it was the late 1980/90s) exclusively until I acquired Silvestre’s Les Tarots. 
 

Silvestre taught a number + suit system. I liked her directness and (incorrectly) assumed that pip + number systems were the right method. So I adopted her associations (it worked). However I was really only using the trumps and Fool at that point. 

 

When I started going online (2002) the headache started. I was told on a yahoo group that how I read was wrong; it was not tarot; neither the 5 of Cups nor the Pope signified harmony in the home nor wisdom and strength; batons were not clubs but diamonds, and so on. I joined TABI and had to follow GD based significations for a time (2003). 

That dented my confidence. I started researching and adapting. It did not help. About 5 years ago I had enough ... I went back to basics. 
 

You will not find a perfect set. Accept that and choose one that makes sense.

 

As said the GD members did use French and Italian tarots. Book T can and is used by some. The issue with the Smith-Waite is different. 

[Helena]

22 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

 

Choose. That isn’t very helpful, is it?  But it is all one can do. 

 

Paradoxically, it is helpful :) Last night, I took all the 8s out of the deck and laid them in a line. Then I used my other decks to draw four cards from each, 1 for each 8, asking them to help me interpret the 8s in that deck. And basically, I got all of the interpretations I already know lol. I did get the Chariot reversed for the 8 of swords...I guess there's that defeat ;) but also a sense of not being able to progress. Makes sense for what I already know about the 8 of swords. I think I'll do the same for the 6s tonight. 

 

In summary, I have rejected his reality and substituted my own. Wouldn't be the first time ;)

[katrinka]

23 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

I am aware of several that have more negative-leaning associations for the sixes. A few of these are built around odd and even numbers, with the latter being more challenging.

I used one like that years ago. I got it from Zolar, lol. I have no idea who he plagairized it from. Much of that book is plagiarized, the entire crystal gazing chapter is taken from Melville and Sepharial, with no attribution. Ah, the meretricious world of fortunetelling. 🙄
All I remember now is the first few Batons:
A - The beginning of an enterprise
II - Obstacle to the enterprise
III - Obstacle overcome
..and so forth. 

It was the same for the Cups and Coins, good, bad, good. But for the Swords it was flipped - the Ace was the beginning of "a tense relation", so the II brought improvement, and the three brought more problems with "the enemy" and "his evil plans". It all looked good on paper, but in practice it didn't work for me very well, so I scrapped it. But it was an interesting system.

 

On 2/1/2021 at 8:32 AM, timtoldrum said:

My pet peeve,  however, is using the “RWS” associations as most of these “meanings” are distortions, e.g. the 7 of Cups as choices and goals. 

Does no one see that all those things are floating in a cloud? Funny how misapprehended ideas get repeated until people think they're canon.

 

40 minutes ago, Helena said:

Last night, I took all the 8s out of the deck and laid them in a line. Then I used my other decks to draw four cards from each, 1 for each 8, asking them to help me interpret the 8s in that deck. And basically, I got all of the interpretations I already know lol. I did get the Chariot reversed for the 8 of swords...I guess there's that defeat 😉 but also a sense of not being able to progress.

 

But wouldn't doing it that way be like having two Chariots in the deck? 🤔

[Helena]

35 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Does no one see that all those things are floating in a cloud? Funny how misapprehended ideas get repeated until people think they're canon.

Totally...like I said in another thread...interpretation of an interpretation of an interpretation. It's why I'm digging. 

 

35 minutes ago, katrinka said:

But wouldn't doing it that way be like having two Chariots in the deck? 🤔

I don't think so. I'm not interpreting the 8 of swords AS the Chariot reversed, or saying they are one and the same. I'm saying the essence of the Chariot played into the element of defeat. I simply asked my decks to help me understand how to interpret. So, out of my decks, for the 8 of swords, I got the Chariot reversed, the Angel of Silence (Angelarium deck), and A Personal Issue Reaches Resolution - Full Moon in Cancer (Moonology Oracle). Put them all together, and you have a general understanding of the 8 of swords as someone who is unable to move forward, looking down (the imagery of the Angel of Silence is very similar to the RWS 8S, trapped in their own head, unable to make a move to improve their situation, but the sword in front is available to them as a solution that they can't see. 

 

I don't see cards as mutually exclusive...maybe there's some disagreement there, but I feel like they play off one another. I'll post a pic of the whole thing in a minute...working now. I didn't do that initially, cuz I was afraid it was getting dangerously close to "interpret my reading" territory. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Helena
Add image

[testpattern]

I love this deck. But I only use it to read for tougher questions. I mean, you are never going to get much sunshine and light out of a deck where the Knight of Swords is an SS officer. But I don't think that the book is particularly good. I read the pips based on my constantly mutating number-suit-decimal series approach. They are less immediatly evocative than classical Marseille arrangements, but they are unique wood carvings, and they do have quite a bit of character. I start my readings of the trumps with Marseille trumps as home base, but if it ain't there I don't force it. 

[Helena]

14 minutes ago, testpattern said:

I love this deck. But I only use it to read for tougher questions. I mean, you are never going to get much sunshine and light out of a deck where the Knight of Swords is an SS officer. But I don't think that the book is particularly good. I read the pips based on my constantly mutating number-suit-decimal series approach. They are less immediatly evocative than classical Marseille arrangements, but they are unique wood carvings, and they do have quite a bit of character. I start my readings of the trumps with Marseille trumps as home base, but if it ain't there I don't force it. 

I'm glad to hear someone else has it! I agree, it isn't the most comforting deck I've ever seen lol. I feel like it's gonna say what it's gotta say and leave you to sit in it lol. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

I used one like that years ago. I got it from Zolar, lol. I have no idea who he plagairized it from. Much of that book is plagiarized, the entire crystal gazing chapter is taken from Melville and Sepharial, with no attribution. Ah, the meretricious world of fortunetelling. 🙄
All I remember now is the first few Batons:
A - The beginning of an enterprise
II - Obstacle to the enterprise
III - Obstacle overcome
..and so forth. 

That is Papus’ system. Despite outlining it he also fell back on Etteilla in later writing. 
 

Fred Gettings outlined it in his book in the 1970s.
 

From memory, Dmitri (Dan) prefers it to other pip systems. I do know two others who use it. But for me it has always been meh 

 

These are Silvestre’s:

 

Aces indicate beginnings and commencement of action. 
Twos indicate duality and opposition.

Threes indicate communication and direction.

Fours indicate consolidation and stabilisation.

Fives indicate renewal and progression.

Sixes indicate sacrifice and challenges.

Sevens indicate action and force.

Eights indicate infinity and balance. 

Nines indicate new cycles and change. 

Tens indicate success and rapid developments.

 

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

Does no one see that all those things are floating in a cloud? Funny how misapprehended ideas get repeated until people think they're canon.

That is what I find strange, particularly when people say they’re reading the images. It’s a horrible card.

 

It all seemed to have started in the 1960s when the PKT was deemed inadequate. 
 

It’s like the Eight of Pentacles as apprenticeship. Waite did not say that. Colman Smith’s drawing comes from Book T. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Guest