Pips/playing card insert theory

[Guest]

4 hours ago, gregory said:

You will note it is quite specific that reversals are not used.

In Russia and Ukraine reversals are not unheard of. Going on memory, I think the late Naina Vladimirova used them. She had one of the old English-language Blaue Eules with Mr. Kaplan’s verses.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Guest
Typo

[Guest]

1 hour ago, le_charior said:

What a pity, and sorry to read about this frustrating experience! I am happy your book exists, but would still be nice to have it the way you originally intended it. 

 

Speaking of courses - will you be offering a Lenormand group course this year again? I think I saw it announced on your website (edit: yes, here) - do you have a newsletter or mailing list for folks (like me) who would be interested in this - or should we just follow on your social media (sorry this is a bit off topic!)

Over time I have released most of the cut material. A lot is on the Petit Lenormand website. For some reason I cannot edit or save updates but there will be more stuff added.

 

The course mentioned in the book was a free course that ran on a forum. The courses I hope to run this year will be different (video). I cannot confirm dates (yet, I am awaiting a date for surgery) but think Autumn or Winter. I have thought of resurrecting the old course as it was geared to introductions — over 500 people completed it.

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, gregory said:

Lenormand =/= Romani, either. Marie was an upper-class woman who had nothing to do with Romani. Didn't the Romani use gypsy cards more anyway ?

 

Lenormand had nothing to do with developing the deck. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Kaspar_Hechtel

 

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/P_1896-0501-495

 

After her death, it was attributed to her as a sales gimmick. When you look at 19th century cards used for fortune telling, virtually everything is attributed to either Lenormand or the Roma. Sometimes both, lol. 

I don't know what the Romani used in those days. I'm guessing there would have been a lot of playing card use, as those were most readily available. They would have used what they had, and it's not out of the question that some had Lenormand decks. There's just no Romani Lenormand method that I'm aware of. It's more of a parlor tradition. 

 

2 hours ago, gregory said:

Lenormand isn't a "decide for yourself" thing, I believe. And swords/wands - air/fire and the 8/11 thing have nothing to do with Lenormand,. I wasn't aware that Lenormand used reversals either.

 

It doesn't. 
Lenormand is read according to combinations/proximity. Since a negative card can weaken or negate a positive one, reversals are not needed and only serve to muddy the water, AFAIC. 

 

2 hours ago, HOLMES said:

Your right gregory, always see in the books, websites lenormand doesn't use reversals. 

I wasn't going to use them for anything else to a dear friend told me why not for an differnt oracle and that cleared a mental block for me. 

Could be in 5 10 maybe 15 to 20 years be a lenormand reversals book out there released hehe or not.(not by me but someone i bet ) 

 

Doing something the correct way (that actually works!) is not a "mental block." 
 

2 hours ago, gregory said:

There won't be such a book - unless by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. The Lenormand system is very specific in its rules - I believe the only "choices" are whether to follow the French or German tradition.

 

Those are minsnomers themselves - not all Germans read the same way, etc. But yes, there are some variations in card interpretations that people think of as regional. Everything is remarkably consistent in spite of that.

And such a book would indeed be written by a dilettante. Unfortunately, bad books exist.

 

2 hours ago, gregory said:

I think you will find some useful info here - though @katrinka please tell me if it's off. You will note it is quite specific that reversals are not used. You'll also find a bit about the playing card associations and numerology but I'm not sure how good that bit is; I am only just starting to look at Lenormand myself.

 

Do you mean here in the thread, or did you mean to post a link there?
(Pardon me - caffeinating.)
 

2 hours ago, gregory said:

Please don't try and force some other system on it - the whole point of studying something new is to learn something new, not to force it into some other mould and use it that way. It isn't tarot. That's most of the point. It has set meanings - something that I am finding particularly hard, as I don't do tarot that way when I read. I don't get to say "ooh look there are clouds around that mountain, which suggests something is hidden". There isn't; I am looking at stasis, the end. This is a steep learning curve for someone who has only ever done tarot - and it deserves better than "Ooh I think I can make this like tarot if I look hard enough." Or even "I am looking to develop a new THEORY about this." Learn it as it is - it will be worth it.

 

Agreed. Why use something if one can't be bothered to learn it? Why not ust design one's own oracle? That's what creativity is - making things, not making a mess of something that already exists.
 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

It all centred on the mounts. Neither Mum nor the relatives who practiced use planetary names. We just refer to them by topic and significance. Other families do use the names. It’s just transmissions. I was also never taught psychic hands, conic hands, et cetera. 

 

Folk palmistry is fascinating. There was a lady around my home town years ago who would read "hot spots" - she'd take your hand and feel for the warmer areas. I've never found anything like that in books.
 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Some of the stuff involves family anecdotes — but since her brain haemorrhage she no longer objects. I have some posts half written on palmistry, but need to get some hand prints. 

 

I hope she's doing as well as possible. 

Anything you can publish would be welcome.
 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Alison is just referring to the fact that several members of my mother’s family were readers (mostly palmistry, coffee grounds and few read playing cards).  However, only my Aunt Elisa used the Petit Lenormand. She later came to live with us, and she showed me how to read them. I do not who taught her but she was illiterate so must have learned off another reader. 

 

Who may have been Romani after all, for all we know. But did you find that her method had the same "flavor" as the other family lore? 
Lenormand just feels very German to me, lol. Pragmatic and orderly. But that could be due to a lot of the exposure I've had.

[gregory]

12 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Lenormand had nothing to do with developing the deck. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Kaspar_Hechtel

 

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/P_1896-0501-495

 

After her death, it was attributed to her as a sales gimmick. When you look at 19th century cards used for fortune telling, virtually everything is attributed to either Lenormand or the Roma. Sometimes both, lol. 

Thank you; I knew I could count on you for correct info

 

12 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I don't know what the Romani used in those days. I'm guessing there would have been a lot of playing card use, as those were most readily available. They would have used what they had, and it's not out of the question that some had Lenormand decks. There's just no Romani Lenormand method that I'm aware of. It's more of a parlor tradition. 

 

Of that I was fairl;y sure, at least.

 

12 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Lenormand is read according to combinations/proximity. Since a negative card can weaken or negate a positive one, reversals are not needed and only serve to muddy the water, AFAIC. 

 

Doing something the correct way (that actually works!) is not a "mental block." 

 

Indeed it is not. Doing it right clears one, though

 

12 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Do you mean here in the thread, or did you mean to post a link there?
(Pardon me - caffeinating.)

I did indeed meant to post a link

 

Here it is: please let me know if it's an OK one !

 

https://littleredtarot.com/learn-lenormand-introduction-hurricane-mystic/

 

 

12 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Agreed. Why use something if one can't be bothered to learn it? Why not ust design one's own oracle? That's what creativity is - making things, not making a mess of something that already exists.

That was kind of what i was getting at here. LeNormand is quite - I hesitate to say rigid, but... - and if that doesn't appeal - why not use something that you can legitimately mess with, instead of trying to force an established system to do what you want..

 

12 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Lenormand just feels very German to me, lol. Pragmatic and orderly. But that could be due to a lot of the exposure I've had.

 

Pragmatic and orderly. That's more positive than rigid, so yeah, OK !

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Folk palmistry is fascinating. There was a lady around my home town years ago who would read "hot spots" - she'd take your hand and feel for the warmer areas. I've never found anything like that in books.

Over time I have found that the closest match to what I learned is the so-called “Vedic.” But even then it is hit and miss. In a reading, I do note warmth and coolness, skin (dry or soft), and so on.  I also use hand dominance; however, my mum never did. She did things different to  her mum, too. 

 

26 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 

I hope she's doing as well as possible. 

Anything you can publish would be welcome

She is doing well. I’ve not seen her for almost 6-months, as she resides with my sister. But she can walk with frames for short-distances which the neurologist said she never would.

 

I do plan on writing. But I need the hand prints — illustrations are okay, but not like actual prints. 
 

31 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Who may have been Romani after all, for all we know. But did you find that her method had the same "flavor" as the other family lore? 
Lenormand just feels very German to me, lol. Pragmatic and orderly. But that could be due to a lot of the exposure I've had.

 

Indeed. When I was writing my book I did speak to some family members and I believe she learned during the thirties. 
 

Her view on the cards were a mix. The Moon was the husband’s standing and circumstances.  If near the Clouds or Coffin, he might see his status reduced. The Hound was someone in service to you (cleaner and so on) rather than a friend.  Essentially, she saw each card as a situation rather than an archetype or even symbol. She never read the Birds as a trip.
 

How she read was to shuffle and deal out a 8 x 4 + 4.  She found the Lady, and then looked underneath it for a main card (which was the House, the Ring, the Tree, the Clouds, the Fishes). Whatever was closest she read the cards around it and went round like that. She also counted but if she got to the end of line she went to the card beneath it:

 

01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 

09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

 

So instead of going from card 8 to 9, she would to card 16 and then 15 and so on. If the Lady was in the last row, she classed that as being “out.” It would mean ignoring her and she read the tableau as being wholly about others and not pertaining next to her seeker.  
 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Lenormand had nothing to do with developing the deck. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Kaspar_Hechtel

 

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/P_1896-0501-495

 

After her death, it was attributed to her as a sales gimmick. When you look at 19th century cards used for fortune telling, virtually everything is attributed to either Lenormand or the Roma. Sometimes both, lol. 

I don't know what the Romani used in those days. I'm guessing there would have been a lot of playing card use, as those were most readily available. They would have used what they had, and it's not out of the question that some had Lenormand decks. There's just no Romani Lenormand method that I'm aware of. It's more of a parlor tradition. 

There were Petit Lenormands printed under other names: Madame Marrow.  Minetta did the Gipsy Bijou deck that doesn’t mention Lenormand. 
 

We do have to be careful with rejecting any connection with Mlle Lenormand.  Some of the earlier attributions mention a deck found in her possession.  Thus far no one has answered the question: why the Game of Hope.  If Hechtel published it in c. 1798, it was out of print for at least 40-years. It was an obscure and expensive publication. So why resurrect that deck?
 

We know Mlle Le Normand owned German cards.  In the grand jeu reading, she would use around five decks including German ones. 
 

Personally, I am inclined to think she either owned a GoH or there were further publications we do not know about. The inventories of her possessions are lost and some of her property was sold (some burned too).  

[gregory]

45 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

I do plan on writing. But I need the hand prints — illustrations are okay, but not like actual prints. 

 

You actually want some ? Happy to send you mine if you like, and if he will co-operate, also my partner's...

 

10 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

We do have to be careful with rejecting any connection with Mlle Lenormand.  Some of the earlier attributions mention a deck found in her possession.  Thus far no one has answered the question: why the Game of Hope.  If Hechtel published it in c. 1798, it was out of print for at least 40-years. It was an obscure and expensive publication. So why resurrect that deck?
 

We know Mlle Le Normand owned German cards.  In the grand jeu reading, she would use around five decks including German ones. 
 

Personally, I am inclined to think she either owned a GoH or there were further publications we do not know about. The inventories of her possessions are lost and some of her property was sold (some burned too).  

Thanks - that was rather what I had always thought....

Edited March 18, 2021 by gregory

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

I did indeed meant to post a link

 

Here it is: please let me know if it's an OK one !

 

https://littleredtarot.com/learn-lenormand-introduction-hurricane-mystic/

Um, no. 
It looks like this person is promoting a deck, a pretty one, but it gets a lot of things wrong. And their "regular" Lenormand meanings are oversimplified (probably to make them fit better with the deck being promoted.)

The problem with just saying the Rider is speedy is that you lose all the other interpretations: news, a male lover, an active, well-dressed young man, livestock, a vehicle, feet, knees and ligaments - you get the idea. (And you can't get all that from marbles, either, lol.) And they don't even mention "danger" for the Scythe, a card that can provide an important warning. It's all pretty sketchy and I think it would confuse beginners. 

For a comprehensive introduction to the cards, there's Andy's site, as already mentioned:

https://thepetitlenormand.com/learn/

And for something simplified, there's Treppner:

https://www.spirisfeed.com/lana-download/lenormand-course/

I did get a chuckle out of the slippers card, though. La chancla is a thing here, too. I'm told that in both Italy and Ireland it's a wooden spoon. 😉
 

Edited March 18, 2021 by katrinka

[gregory]

Thanks - I stand corrected.

 

It shows in spades what rubbish is out there on line to mislead people.

Edited March 18, 2021 by gregory

[le_charior]

4 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Over time I have released most of the cut material. A lot is on the Petit Lenormand website. For some reason I cannot edit or save updates but there will be more stuff added.

 

The course mentioned in the book was a free course that ran on a forum. The courses I hope to run this year will be different (video). I cannot confirm dates (yet, I am awaiting a date for surgery) but think Autumn or Winter. I have thought of resurrecting the old course as it was geared to introductions — over 500 people completed it.

Thank you! The website is a wonderful resource, alongside your book! I will keep my eyes open for the new course, very curious about it (and I would be about the previous one as well if you decided to resurrect it)! And all the best wishes for your surgery, I hope it happens soon and goes smoothly! 

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Over time I have found that the closest match to what I learned is the so-called “Vedic.” But even then it is hit and miss. In a reading, I do note warmth and coolness, skin (dry or soft), and so on.  I also use hand dominance; however, my mum never did. She did things different to  her mum, too. 

 

Interesting. The bit about the skin reminds me a little of TCM...it sounds like you could pick up quite a bit of health related information.
 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

She is doing well. I’ve not seen her for almost 6-months, as she resides with my sister. But she can walk with frames for short-distances which the neurologist said she never would.

 

Glad to hear that. I hope she continues to prove the neurologist wrong. 🙂
 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

I do plan on writing. But I need the hand prints — illustrations are okay, but not like actual prints.

 

I could send mine as well. 
It would have to be snail mail, though. I don't have a scanner.
 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Indeed. When I was writing my book I did speak to some family members and I believe she learned during the thirties. 

 

Nice! Some insights into how it was done then. 
 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Her view on the cards were a mix. The Moon was the husband’s standing and circumstances.  If near the Clouds or Coffin, he might see his status reduced. The Hound was someone in service to you (cleaner and so on) rather than a friend.  Essentially, she saw each card as a situation rather than an archetype or even symbol. She never read the Birds as a trip.

 

The male inflection for the Moon is intriguing. 
 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

How she read was to shuffle and deal out a 8 x 4 + 4.  She found the Lady, and then looked underneath it for a main card (which was the House, the Ring, the Tree, the Clouds, the Fishes). Whatever was closest she read the cards around it and went round like that. She also counted but if she got to the end of line she went to the card beneath it:

 

01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 

09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

 

So instead of going from card 8 to 9, she would to card 16 and then 15 and so on. If the Lady was in the last row, she classed that as being “out.” It would mean ignoring her and she read the tableau as being wholly about others and not pertaining next to her seeker.  

I like that, it looks like she cut to the chase. 

[katrinka]

15 minutes ago, gregory said:

It shows in spades what rubbish is out there on line to mislead people.

There's a MASSIVE amount of rubbish. It's pretty frustrating. 
So much so, that I consider myself lucky that there was hardly anything online when I started. I can't imagine starting now and having to weed through all that.

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Personally, I am inclined to think she either owned a GoH or there were further publications we do not know about. The inventories of her possessions are lost and some of her property was sold (some burned too).  

 

The British Museum site gives a production date of ca. 1800-1850. So I suppose it's possible that the GoH stayed in print that long, or that there were knockoffs. There's so much we don't know...

[Guest]

2 hours ago, gregory said:

You actually want some ? Happy to send you mine if you like, and if he will co-operate, also my partner's...

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

I could send mine as well. 
It would have to be snail mail, though. I don't have a scanner.

Thank you. I may take you both up on that later on. But the written articles are based on old readings for two clients. I need their hand prints as the ‘photos are unclear at times. 
 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Interesting. The bit about the skin reminds me a little of TCM...it sounds like you could pick up quite a bit of health related information.

Yes. If you look at the hands of anaemics, you will often note very pale nails and cold skin. Someone with eye trouble will often have marks (xxx or blurry loops) under the fourth finger on the mount people call the Sun. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

Nice! Some insights into how it was done then. 

Yes. I wish I had asked but it never occurred to me to do so. 

 

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

The male inflection for the Moon is intriguing. 

On reflection I would suspect a lot of her clients were housewives. But I cannot see her never having read for a working woman at least by the 1960s. 

 

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

I like that, it looks like she cut to the chase. 

She was not someone you would get an essay out of.
 

I should have got a Dondorf but the Russian was to hand. This is also not a real reading.  
 

If she was reading this, she would likely start with either the Heart or the Tree.

 

With the latter she would that moving or convalescing in warmer climes would result in a significant improvement to the Lady’s health (Tree, Stork and Heart).  Then see would find the High Tower to flesh that out. 
 

The count would go Boat, Book, Cavalier, et cetera. She read the count much as people do surprises. 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

The British Museum site gives a production date of ca. 1800-1850. So I suppose it's possible that the GoH stayed in print that long, or that there were knockoffs. There's so much we don't know...

In 2013 and 2015, I corresponded with the Museum for information on their dating. Hechtel died in 1799 and it seems unlikely the game remained in print for long. But we just do not know.
 

It is possible that there were later runs — maybe with just the Alsace playing cards. But it is just not known. 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Guest

[gregory]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Yes. If you look at the hands of anaemics, you will often note very pale nails and cold skin. Someone with eye trouble will often have marks (xxx or blurry loops) under the fourth finger on the mount people call the Sun. 

I am usually anaemic, and have both..... But my partner has eye trouble; when he washes his hands (he is plumbing as we speak...) I must examine them !

[HOLMES]

10 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

In Russia and Ukraine reversals are not unheard of. Going on memory, I think the late Naina Vladimirova used them. She had one of the old English-language Blaue Eules with Mr. Kaplan’s verses.

 

Of course i am going to jump at this and say simply cool

There are those who say reversals shouldn't be used tarot even today 

So perhaps lenormand community will evolve to be more open to the idea. 

 

[gregory]

Tarot was never as firm a system, as LeNormand. Why do you want to destroy something that works so well ? Instead, why not learn to use this system, one that you are not yet at all familiar with, in the way that has worked so well for years.  If everything gets muddied and mixed up with everything else, we might as well all run with rule-free oracles and just do our own thing. There is actually merit in having a number of different forms of cartomancy - with their own tried and tested systems. They don't need to be "opened up".

 

I am reminded of a saying from my past:

 

If your mind is too open, your brains will fall out.

 

Think on.

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

 

Of course i am going to jump at this and say simply cool

There are those who say reversals shouldn't be used tarot even today 

So perhaps lenormand community will evolve to be more open to the idea. 

 

If you want to use reversals that is a personal choice. I would stress that it is still not common practice — even in Russia — and quite a few users seem to stop. In addition, it’s often employed in conjunction to other cartomancy systems, such as the master method and some of Etteilla’s draws. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Guest

[Guest]

4 hours ago, gregory said:

I am usually anaemic, and have both..... But my partner has eye trouble; when he washes his hands (he is plumbing as we speak...) I must examine them !

 There is a few more indicators but they are common signs. 

[gregory]

Well, at least we already knew - though pale nails would be pretty much inevitable with anaemia, as would cold hands ! I just want to see if his hands match !

[HOLMES]

6 hours ago, gregory said:

Tarot was never as firm a system, as LeNormand. Why do you want to destroy something that works so well ? Instead, why not learn to use this system, one that you are not yet at all familiar with, in the way that has worked so well for years.  If everything gets muddied and mixed up with everything else, we might as well all run with rule-free oracles and just do our own thing. There is actually merit in having a number of different forms of cartomancy - with their own tried and tested systems. They don't need to be "opened up".

 

I am reminded of a saying from my past:

 

If your mind is too open, your brains will fall out.

 

Think on.

 

I do not seek to destroy anything gregory, 

For me i simply adding reversals to my learning process as i practice reading.

 

Unless you refering to my original post where i talked about not using the pip combos. Which is differnt  then the lenormand card combos

The reason for that is i figure the pip combos be better for the playing card forum 

Unless you refering to the focused spade as strife and challenges which at the time was for ease of study that i now changed to include the other point of view. 

As the thread originally focused on pips within the lenormand that all i focused on..  

Unless you refer to my earlier study on numerlogy and the cards, that was just to add to it. It changed nothing about the system

Nah imo i respecting the tradition 

For me the lenormand has to have pip cards, be 36 cards, a ship is a ship,a bear is a bear

I don't read my tarot and lenny together, or kipper and lenny together

 

Pretty well only i personally done is decided to focus on reading 4x9  instead of the other gt for it makes most sense to me at the time. 

 

I am passionate about the deck. So i am apologizing for getting up at arms for i do not see how i seek to destroy anything. 

 

It could be a case of "he doth protest too much"  edited to add

Edfited to add part 2

I was refering to my self  protesting too much 

So after watching my show which i sat about this, and what is my agenda which wass an idea.. 

I had  an exercise in mind for which i started the thread as a primer. 

Tomorrow if my energy is good i will share it.

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by HOLMES

[katrinka]

8 hours ago, HOLMES said:

There are those who say reversals shouldn't be used tarot even today 

So perhaps lenormand community will evolve to be more open to the idea. 

 

"Evolve"? 
It sounds like you're implying that Lenormand readers are unevolved and closed-minded because the overwhelming majority of us don't like reversals. 
But the reason we don't like them is that they don't work well in Lenormand.

 

Lenormand works beautifully if you follow the system. Yesterday I was thinking about filing my taxes, but I was worried that I might owe money. I did a quick pull and got Sun - Anchor - Lady. So I did my taxes and I apparently have a nice return coming. I can rely on Lenormand. It gives me unambiguous answers in most cases. But I have learned to follow the method. 

 

Since the Russian readers who use reversals tend to stop at some point, it sounds to me like they were experimenting. It's human nature to experiment. It also sounds to me like they eventually get to the point where they decide reversals don't work well. 

Lenormand isn't really the deck, it's the method. And it's a genius method, and yes, a lot of us are protective of it. It will work if you humble yourself and learn it rather than trying to meddle with it. 

I am typing this now, and people will be able to read and understand it, because there are rules and conventions regarding spelling and language. But maybe I should "evolve" and just do this?: jowiu t[aowtvymapit;mapc;prm;.ahzyrui lig hklgiufytdshdtkj'ppi

[le_charior]

On the one hand I really enjoy the strong opinions on the Lenormand here, on the other hand I personally think there is a middle ground, between protecting tradition and being open to changes. Me, personally, I am approaching this new system with the idea of "you have to know the rules to break the rules" - not saying i want to break them, but maybe question or evolve them. And i think everybody's way of learning is different - some might learn from books and traditional ways, some might experiment on their own and see what works for them. 

 

Aaaaanyway, back on topic! 

 

I find it fascinating how the Ur-Lenormand, the Game of Hope cards have two playing card inserts, with German suits (Green Leaves, Red Hearts, Bells and Acorns) and their equivalent in the French suits (clubs , diamonds , hearts  and spades ) :

 

 

(Source of the image: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/P_1896-0501-495)

 

To me the German or Bavarian cards, as I know them, with minors from 6 - 10, are very familiar as I mentioned already from a card game called Schafkopf that I grew up with and still play with my nieces and nephews today - it seems people are also using these card for divination purposes (A german language site on the topic: https://www.zenomlive.com/lexikon/schafkopfkarten/) They equate

Acorn = Clubs (negative - betrayal, falsehood, unfaithful, anger, grief)

Bells = Diamonds (positive - fortunate, especially financially)

Leaves = Spades (good news and hope)

Hearts = Hearts (positive - love, happiness, good times) 

 

and give some basic meanings that I added in a quick translation. Not sure where this tradition comes from of course. Funnily they have positive meanings for three colours and only the poor Clubs get all the negativity 🙂 

 

Mary K. Greer also writes about this, and compares very interesting cards on her blog, already from 2013: https://marykgreer.com/2013/10/04/lenormand-playing-card-inserts-possible-sources/ 

 

I'll look more into this later for sure. Still wrapping my head around the first level of reading Lenormand, so for the moment I am not so concerned with the playing cards, but I really like it and would not go for a deck that does not have this second layer of meaning. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by le_charior
added image

[gregory]

4 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

"Evolve"? 
It sounds like you're implying that Lenormand readers are unevolved and closed-minded because the overwhelming majority of us don't like reversals. 
But the reason we don't like them is that they don't work well in Lenormand.

 

Lenormand works beautifully if you follow the system. Yesterday I was thinking about filing my taxes, but I was worried that I might owe money. I did a quick pull and got Sun - Anchor - Lady. So I did my taxes and I apparently have a nice return coming. I can rely on Lenormand. It gives me unambiguous answers in most cases. But I have learned to follow the method. 

 

Since the Russian readers who use reversals tend to stop at some point, it sounds to me like they were experimenting. It's human nature to experiment. It also sounds to me like they eventually get to the point where they decide reversals don't work well. 

Lenormand isn't really the deck, it's the method. And it's a genius method, and yes, a lot of us are protective of it. It will work if you humble yourself and learn it rather than trying to meddle with it. 

I am typing this now, and people will be able to read and understand it, because there are rules and conventions regarding spelling and language. But maybe I should "evolve" and just do this?: jowiu t[aowtvymapit;mapc;prm;.ahzyrui lig hklgiufytdshdtkj'ppi

 

Quote

Lenormand isn't really the deck, it's the method.

Brilliantly put, especially that bit !

 

If you want to mess with it - don't call it LeNormand.

Edited March 19, 2021 by gregory