Looking for clarification on deck type

[Anabiyeni]

I have seen the expression "Waite type tarot deck", but I have never seen a definition. I would guess it's a 78-card non-pip deck, but is it stricter than that? Would the Mystical Cats Tarot or Transparent Tarot, for example, be Waite type? Does it need to have wands/swords/cups/pentacles and/or page/knight/queen/king? Do definitions need to match Waite's "Pictorial Key"? What general categories do you use to describe your Tarot decks?

[HOLMES]

https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/rider-waite-clone.shtml

 

 

https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/rider-waite-inspired.shtml

 

For an visual idea. 

 

 

 

[Anabiyeni]

And now I'm even more confused. I would have considered the Herbal Tarot and White Cats Tarot to be clones, since the imagery is so similar to RWS.

[LogicalHue]

I think it has more to do with the card meanings than anything else. At least in the context of RWS v Thoth v Marseilles v Wildwood etc. A lot of it has to do with the minors. My understanding is that the Marseilles minors mean totally different things from RWS minors. Someone else is going to give you a much better answer on that I'm sure.

 

I also think of "RWS clone" more broadly than what's listed on aeclectic. Even if a few cards aren't the same but mostly they are. Like Tarot of the Magical Forest is basically an RWS clone to me. Even though a bunch of those images are different from RWS and obviously the style is totally different, you can see they are just copying the RWS imagery for like 90%. Again - this is often the most apparent in the minors. People tend to get more creative with the majors and then fall back on RWS imagery for the minors.

[gregory]

Yes indeed. I would avoid the word clone, as that suggests looking alike, which they certainly don't need to. "In the RWS tradition" works better for me. Or "inspired by RWS". Herbal and White Cats certainly fit, for me. So does Mystical Cats.SIMILAR poses, basically meanings from Waite, though often tweaked.

 

This is a better list:

https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/rider-waite-inspired.shtml

 

Strength must be at at 8 and Justice at 11, too.

 

Transparent - that's tougher.

[AlbaTross]

Rider Waite Smith is by far the most common deck tradition I've come across, and the vast majority of my decks are of this type.  It's so commonplace in fact, that it makes more sense to clarify when a deck of a different type is being used than one of this type, unless someone is referring to a RWS clone, which is its own thing and may be what's causing you confusion. 

 

To start with though, here is a list of things I've observed in decks that fall into the RWS tradition:

 

Like with all Tarot decks, there are 78 cards, 22 Major, 56 Minor divided into suits, each containing 10 numbered cards and 4 Court Cards.  

Strength is the 8th card in the Major Arcana, Justice is the 11th.

The Courts in order are the Page, Knight, Queen and King.

The numbered cards generally have pictures on them that are reminiscent of those found in the Major and Court cards.

 

Any deck that fits all of the above criteria is likely a RWS deck.  When someone is referring to a clone, they mean one that's very similar to the traditional RWS deck.  There's the RWS deck that's so well-known it probably doesn't need an introduction, and then there are plenty that are based around the imagery and themes of that deck.  Those are the clones.  There are plenty of others where the images and themes deviate from that traditional deck, and they are not clone decks.  Generally speaking, they all carry over the concepts and general meanings of the traditional cards, but they're presented in their own unique way.  Such decks are often based around some kind of theme, and are very much part of the RWS deck tradition, but the definition of a clone deck is far more narrow.

 

Of course, to make things even more confusing, I have come across decks that seem to be a blend of different deck traditions, or ones where the creators decided to rename the suits and/or some of the Major cards.  Most of the latter appear to still be RWS with the understanding that each card that is altered is a stand-in for a traditional one, but it can be especially confusing if you're still just learning the basic cards.  As for the former, I suppose it allows for a bit more creative freedom, but that's why you may see something like a deck where the Strength and Justice have the RWS placement, but where there are pip cards like TdM.  

Edited April 2, 2021 by AlbaTross

[Anabiyeni]

Thanks, AlbaTross. That was really thorough and suggests the definition I was using (same names, suits, courts and similar images) may have been too narrow.

 

gregory, I'll have to revisit my copy of mystical cats now, because I was thinking it isn't RWS. I trust your judgment more than mine, though.

[gregory]

It certainly isn't Thothy, GD or TdM !

 

Take a look ?

 

https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/mystical-cats/

[Saturn Celeste]

1 hour ago, Anabiyeni said:

I'll have to revisit my copy of mystical cats now, because I was thinking it isn't RWS.

It's a CAT tarot!  I recently purchased that deck and it's so catty! 😻

[Marisa Kirisame]

I usually define a type of decks such as "reskins" (of RWS or different decks). In essence, if a deck consists only of cards each of which has a single corresponding RWS card (and all of the RWS cards are covered by the deck in this way), it is an "RWS reskin".

Though the symbol alphabet the reskins have will still differ from the original RWS one - so you can't call them identical to RWS in all aspects.

[Anabiyeni]

On 4/16/2021 at 2:54 PM, Saturn Celeste said:

It's a CAT tarot!

I think half of my animal themed decks contain significant numbers of cats. A notable exception is Badgers Forest because I adore badgers and it's a cute deck. Now if only I could find a nice goat-themed deck, since if I have a spirit animal, it's a goat.

 

@Marisa Kirisame I like the term reskin. I may have to adopt it.

[katrinka]

On 4/2/2021 at 2:00 PM, LogicalHue said:

I think it has more to do with the card meanings than anything else. At least in the context of RWS v Thoth v Marseilles v Wildwood etc. A lot of it has to do with the minors. My understanding is that the Marseilles minors mean totally different things from RWS minors. Someone else is going to give you a much better answer on that I'm sure.

That's how I tend to think of types. You could even do subcategories:

Pip decks would include Marseilles and non-Marseilles decks that also feature pips. Golden Dawn type decks would include RWS, Thoth, etc., and these would have subcategories. 
The Thoth could be considered a GD-based deck and also a pip deck. And the pips on that one are somewhat illustrated, so that's another subcategory, as compared to plain pips.
And then there are the systems that don't fit any of the above. It gets complicated pretty quickly, which is why I don't try to sit down and formally categorize everything, lol. 

[gregory]

I once tried to categorise my decks, as an extra field in my database. Couldn't do it - there were just too many variables,.

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, gregory said:

I once tried to categorise my decks, as an extra field in my database. Couldn't do it - there were just too many variables,.

Exactly. I'd have to create categories and subcategories for just one or two decks each. 
It would be  lot like using individual boxes for each pair of socks and underwear. It's much neater to just throw them all in a drawer.

Edited May 3, 2021 by katrinka

[TheLoracular]

With the explosion of new decks to my collection in the last 7 1/2 months, I've told myself I should get more organized but I'd never manage categorizations beyond tarot and other; maybe RWS/RWS-inspired, classical (meaning pre-80s to me) and modern (1980+ forward in publication) as subclasses for tarot.   

@Anabiyeni,  for me RWS-clone decks are decks that use the exact Rider-Waite-Smith pictures but different colors, hues, maybe another artist than Smith but copying her style and details.   RWS-inspired decks are decks that use the same general images but have their own style and details.  Some of them are closer to the original than the other.   With RWS, RWS-clone, and RWS-inspired decks?  How I interpret them is generally the same.  

For me, all tarot decks (vs. oracle, leomand, anything else) have to have exactly 78 cards divided into 22 Major Arcana (but they don't have to be exact same as RWS) with a Minor Arcana of four elemental-inspired suits (it doesn't matter what you call your fire, water, air, earth suits as long as you have four suits that make the same elemental associations as the typical wands/rods, cups, swords, pentacles/coins/disk do) with 10 pips and 4 court cards with the court cards being attributable to something like the King/Father, Queen/Mother, Knight/Son, Page/Daughter even if called something else.  

I have decks that are in boxes calling them tarot decks but I classify them as oracle decks because they have extra cards, extra something, and break that very specific framework in some way.