When we read that the Stork is a migratory bird and that this meaning is applied to some of our readings, does it mean that the card can indicate a sort of homecoming, of return too? 

 

Wasn't this meaning more suitable to the Ring, though? 

 

Can the two cards have these similar meanings?

The Stork can indicate (read as a person) or describe someone who is restless or comes and goes in our life. For example, a client’s sister-in-law spends the winter in Malta is the Stork. 

The Ring is more indicative of repetition and cycles. Of course, one could argue that coming-and-going is a repetition.
 

But there is a difference in nuance. The Stork will come and go changed or in different shape and circumstances. It will cease one day, too. 
 

The Ring’s repetition is an reoccurrence with the same circulation and circumstances. It’s the eternal return.
 

That is also why the Ring and not the Birch Rod is the card of repetition. The Birch Rod is corrective action done to achieve a result or remedy. 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

The Birch Rod is corrective action done to achieve a result or remedy.

 

That's very well put. A lot of people these days miss that point entirely.

I've posted this link many times before, but for the benefit of those who haven't seen it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birching

 

3 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

The Ring’s repetition is an reoccurrence with the same circulation and circumstances. It’s the eternal return.

As in Samsara, correct?

 

3 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

The Birch Rod is corrective action done to achieve a result or remedy. 

But done only twice (or mostly three times), I reckon? Because more than that seems a bit... Too much, I guess. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Well birching designed to be done once as only a fool or sadist would want another beating. 

Unless you refering to how many lashes you are to get. 

@HOLMES If you are talking about the real birching, yes, indeed. But I was wondering if the repetition alluded by the card would only be applied twice (or, at most, three times). 

18 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

That's very well put. A lot of people these days miss that point entirely.

I've posted this link many times before, but for the benefit of those who haven't seen it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birching

 

Just how I see it. I had to explain the difference between repeating or correcting something, and repetition by DM last week. That article probably should be made sticky!

16 hours ago, fabfranco said:

As in Samsara, correct?

In certain circumstances, maybe. The Ring is a circle. We are forced to trace and retrace our steps along its circumference. So it signifies repetition. 
 

16 hours ago, fabfranco said:

But done only twice (or mostly three times), I reckon? Because more than that seems a bit... Too much, I guess. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Once or twice, yes.  It is a corrective tool which is used to either remedy or clear a situation or to establish control and dominance over something. 
 

Paired with the Bear it can be an official reprimand. The Park a Police Station,  Court or Prison. With the Book editing or erratum.
 

Unfortunately, some confuse this corrective action which can involve doing something again with repetition.  

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

It is a corrective tool which is used to either remedy or clear a situation or to establish control and dominance over something. 

That's what I always thought of the emblem. Thanks.

1 hour ago, fabfranco said:

That's what I always thought of the emblem. Thanks.

We seem to be on the same page.
 

Some do see the Birch Rod as repetitiveness, along with other nonsensical associations (exercise and sports) and will often give rather Freudian justifications. But I find it best to focus on the essence and function of an emblem.  

Edited April 28, 20215 yr by Guest

I used to employ the Italian word "scopare" in a similar fashion as you mentioned "la verge" for the sexual connotations of the Whip. Though, However, I came to perceive that Whip is not mutually satisfying sex, but more of the use of the male organ as a patriarchally machist and dominating/opressive symbol. 

I don't read Whips as sex at all. The card can describe sex, as any of them can. But as Andy has stated many times, there is no "sex card" per se.
The Lilies comes closest. It's a card of progeny, and therefore the generative organs - pistils and stamens actually are the sex organs of flowers, and the pistils are quite prominent in this card. And there is some historical precedent, since the PL sheet euphemistically relates the position of the card to "virtue" and "moral principles." 

But it's a catch-all card with a range of interpretations, so it's important not to kneejerk and assume it's sex every time it shows up. Most of the time, it's something else.

Looking at my books, 

It would be both rana george and caitlin matthews who talk of the sexual aspect of the whip.

I know rana comes from french style, so i figure could be an french style association?

 

Lozzy philips has sex as one of the whips meanings. 

 

Sex isn't the only meaning just one of course

Edited April 28, 20215 yr by HOLMES

15 hours ago, fabfranco said:

Yes, @HOLMES, the association I know of was from Rana and Caitlín. Odd, isn't it, because most of the times, the two of them seem to come from different traditions, as far as I can notice.

 

16 hours ago, HOLMES said:

Lozzy philips has sex as one of the whips meanings. 

 

Caitlín is fluent in French and her research for her book was primarily French works (Etteilla, Marco/Goffinet, Ripert...) and French translations of other works, such as Droesbeke.

 

Rana George, Lozzy Philips, Elvira and Sylvie Steinbach are all derivative of Marco and Goffinet.  Elvira, however, is interesting: the Lilies are sexuality, not the Birch Rod.  
 

Quite a few Belgian and Dutch readers either follow or are influenced by Marco. The so-called French meanings on Serena Powers were from a Dutch forum.  The French meanings on AT were Moony’s (Belgian).

 

Marco states that the Birch Rod represents physical violence, battered women or martyred men.  It is also the blows of fate in all areas (specified by the surrounding cards). And: ...last but not least, in the true sense, it is the very image of the phallus.

In her further discussion of the card (psychological state, value in draws), she doesn’t reference sex or how/if the card is to be read as such.  

Neither Silvestre nor Delclos identify the Birch Rod as sex or the male member.  
 

There is no card of work or sex.  Go through the deck. Does one show anyone having sex or working?  No. 
 

It is fashionable to have one sex and work cards. But does it make sense?  If the Fox is work because it feeds its young, well so do birds and bears.  If the Birch Rod is recreational sex and the Lilies procreative sex (because it’s loving à la MKG), do the infertile or us queers never make Lilies only Birch Rod?

 

 I think Quinton Crisp said it best: Fashion is what you adopt when you don't know who you are.

Edited April 29, 20215 yr by Guest
Typo

12 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Marco states that the Birch Rod represents physical violence, battered women or martyred men.  It is also the blows of fate in all areas (specified by the surrounding cards). And: ...last but not least, in the true sense, it is the very image of the phallus.

 

Ugh. 
Not something I would equate with sex. Maybe sex as a medium for violence and humiliation, like rape.  But not sex in and of itself.

 

12 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

In her further discussion of the card (psychological state, value in draws), she doesn’t reference sex or how/if the card is to be read as such.  
 

 

I tend to dismiss the Freudian stuff anyway. A wise woman once said, "A thing is a phallic symbol if it's longer than it's wide." *

 

12 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Neither Silvestre nor Delclos identify the Birch Rod as sex or the male member.  
 

There is no card of work or sex.  Go through the deck. Does one show anyone having sex or working?  No. 

 

I get what you're saying. There is no card that is sex or work, the way that the Dog is loyalty or the Clover is a little fast luck.
But it's hard to explain. I don't think I'm able to explain it clearly. I say Lilies because they're generative, but then I say they aren't a sex card and it looks like I'm contradicting myself. 
What was that famous quote about pornography? "You know it when you see it." 🤣

Certain combinations and groupings, in certain contexts, are unmistakably sexual. But we shouldn't be going "AH HA, Whips and Lilies and Snake!" and pounding the table like the wolf in Tex Avery's Red Hot Riding Hood. Sometimes those cards are just a conversation about the family with grandma.
 

12 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

It is fashionable to have one sex and work cards. But does it make sense?  If the Fox is work because it feeds its young, well so do birds and bears.  If the Birch Rod is recreational sex and the Lilies procreative sex (because it’s loving à la MKG), do the infertile or us queers never make Lilies only Birch Rod?

 

Birchrods as sex has creepy overtones to me. Like recreational sex is limited to the rough trade.
One could infer that the idea behind it is that people indulging in recreational sex need to be punished.

And that's...I have no words.

 

As mentioned earlier, I do sometimes read the Lilies with a sexual inflection. This is not to discount non-procreative sex. When I see the Lilies, I see an organ, I see hormones. That thing that drives us. 

A friend of mine once said something I never forgot. She was talking about how love was all brain chemicals, and her boyfriend got upset. He thought it was very unromantic. Her reply was "But we're chemicals."

That's part of the Lilies for me. That attraction, whether it's for the same sex or the opposite. That drive.
But it's not the whole show. Sometimes Lilies is just an old guy, winter, etc. 😁
 

12 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

 I think Quinton Crisp said it best: Fashion is what you adopt when you don't know who you are.

Yep. Very true.

I promised a footnote. I didn't forget. 😁
 

 

I think this discussion on whip/birchrod being sex or not is lost in this thread. 

I propose one starts a thread with key points so be easy to find. 

I will if noone does tomorrow, just tired now.

10 hours ago, katrinka said:

Ugh. 
Not something I would equate with sex. Maybe sex as a medium for violence and humiliation, like rape.  But not sex in and of itself.

No. When I first read the title the male member equals human sexuality was not a natural observation. For copyright reasons, I cannot post any more than I have.
 

When Marco discusses the cartes maîtressses, there are combinations between the Birch Rod and Heart and Ring.  For the latter there is a reference to an adventurous marriage but insofar as it having lots of ups and downs.  

 

10 hours ago, katrinka said:

I tend to dismiss the Freudian stuff anyway. A wise woman once said, "A thing is a phallic symbol if it's longer than it's wide." *

Yes. It is not something I consider helpful in life or card reading. But I am mindful that I could be seen as prudish. 

 

10 hours ago, katrinka said:

I get what you're saying. There is no card that is sex or work, the way that the Dog is loyalty or the Clover is a little fast luck.
But it's hard to explain. I don't think I'm able to explain it clearly. I say Lilies because they're generative, but then I say they aren't a sex card and it looks like I'm contradicting myself. 
What was that famous quote about pornography? "You know it when you see it." 🤣

Certain combinations and groupings, in certain contexts, are unmistakably sexual. But we shouldn't be going "AH HA, Whips and Lilies and Snake!" and pounding the table like the wolf in Tex Avery's Red Hot Riding Hood. Sometimes those cards are just a conversation about the family with grandma.

Insofar as the Lilies is our kith and kin it can be seen to have sexual connotations. I associate the Lilies with tenderness, mutual respect and love. If someone asked if a relationship was going to physically satisfying, yes. 
 

10 hours ago, katrinka said:

Birchrods as sex has creepy overtones to me. Like recreational sex is limited to the rough trade.
One could infer that the idea behind it is that people indulging in recreational sex need to be punished.

And that's...I have no words.

 

As mentioned earlier, I do sometimes read the Lilies with a sexual inflection. This is not to discount non-procreative sex. When I see the Lilies, I see an organ, I see hormones. That thing that drives us. 

A friend of mine once said something I never forgot. She was talking about how love was all brain chemicals, and her boyfriend got upset. He thought it was very unromantic. Her reply was "But we're chemicals."

That's part of the Lilies for me. That attraction, whether it's for the same sex or the opposite. That drive.
But it's not the whole show. Sometimes Lilies is just an old guy, winter, etc. 😁

I see that. I associate the Lilies with the endocrine system. That includes testosterone and estrogen both of which... well you know. 
 

The above- and below-side of the Lilies’ meanings is primarily understood in terms of virtue as sexuality. During the medieval and early modern period, virtue included far more than being loose or chaste. So I do see it more someone who has his life on course. But I do not reject the sexual connotation.

 

10 hours ago, katrinka said:

promised a footnote. I didn't forget. 😁

Brilliant lol
 

 

7 hours ago, HOLMES said:

I think this discussion on whip/birchrod being sex or not is lost in this thread. 

I propose one starts a thread with key points so be easy to find. 

I will if noone does tomorrow, just tired now.

I think it is okay, here. If you want to start a thread that is up to you. But please leave the content where it was posted.