Card Selection vs Interpretation

[LogicalHue]

What are people's thoughts on card selection as a skill or talent? Is this something that people get better at over time as readers? Is it something different people are just naturally better at than others? Is it not a consideration to you at all? I don't see it mentioned much on this forum, everything is always about interpretation. The answer is always in front of you in the cards, you just have to understand it, is the message I see again and again.

 

When reading cards: what makes those the right cards to interpret in the first place?

[HOLMES]

Well, i shuffle the best i can, 

Pray for guidance then dwal tbem out as i have faith what will be will be. 

I did see in a ps4 game called 5 dates where the person was given choice between2 cards revealed to them . 

But i figure if i do it that way . I am eschewing the results. Cherry picking the cards will not help me get to truths

[DanielJUK]

I honestly believe they are destined, like I am not selecting them. Like Holmes says I do try to really shuffle them but I think they come up for me as a message and then I have to work out that message. We have to have a system for shuffling them up and dealing them, maybe some methods and things like relaxing, candles, whatever we like but that is as far as I see selecting.

There is that old saying that the cards are always right, it's the interpretations that we can get wrong. I can't remember who said that but it's true. Whilst we can shuffle them and as best as we can, the part that is our job is interpreting them after dealing them. The skill and experience is all about how good we are at working out what we see before us, like working out the message from hieroglyphics. Our task is to decode them and pass on the message that we see before us.

[katrinka]

I just deal what's on top of the deck after the cut. The shuffling has already randomized everything, there's no skill or talent involved in that step. The cards are always the right ones. 
Some people like to spread them out in a ribbon face down and select cards. My personal feelings on this is that it's probably good theater, it gives the client the impression that something very woo is at play. 😁 Some even describe holding their hand over a particular card and feeling sensations like heat or tingling. But if drawing off the top turns up the right cards, doing all that picking is unnecessary work. But YMMV - you do you.

[stephanelli]

When I first learnt tarot I used a fantastic website and something I read in the introduction really stuck with me and it is still how I believe we get the right cards.

 

Here is the link to the article in question: http://learntarot.com/less1.htm

 

I'm going to just quote it here because i can't explain it any better, if you want to read it in the article linked then it's about half way down the page:

When we do a tarot reading, we select certain cards by shuffling, cutting and dealing the deck. Although this process seems random, we still assume the cards we pick are special. This is the point of a tarot reading after all - to choose the cards we are meant to see. Now, common sense tells us that cards chosen by chance can't hold any special meaning, or can they?

 

To answer this question, let's look at randomness more closely. Usually we say that an event is random when it appears to be the result of the chance interaction of mechanical forces. From a set of possible outcomes - all equally likely - one occurs, but for no particular reason.

 

This definition includes two key assumptions about random events: they are the result of mechanical forces, and they have no meaning. First, no tarot reading is solely the product of mechanical forces. It is the result of a long series of conscious actions. We decide to study the tarot. We buy a deck and learn how to use it. We shuffle and cut the cards in a certain way at a certain point. Finally, we use our perceptions to interpret the cards.

At every step, we are actively involved. Why then are we tempted to say a reading is "the chance interaction of mechanical forces?" Because we can't explain just how our consciousness is involved. We know our card choices aren't deliberate, so we call them random. In fact, could there be a deeper mechanism at work, one connected to the power of our unconscious? Could our inner states be tied to outer events in a way that we don't yet fully understand? I hold this possibility out to you.

 

The other feature of a random event is that it has no inherent meaning. I roll a die and get a six, but there is no purpose to this result. I could just as easily roll a one, and the meaning would be the same - or would it? Do we really know these two outcomes are equal?

 

But this is why I believe that whatever cards turn up, they will be the right ones, I just have to interpret the message which they bring me.

[katrinka]

17 minutes ago, stephanelli said:

This definition includes two key assumptions about random events: they are the result of mechanical forces, and they have no meaning. First, no tarot reading is solely the product of mechanical forces.

 

Obviously not. The reading is full of meaning.
The randomness is in the shuffle. Chaos Theory states that there may well be some underlying patterns, but at this point, it's all theory. We don't know.😉

[LogicalHue]

1 hour ago, DanielJUK said:

We have to have a system for shuffling them up and dealing them, maybe some methods and things like relaxing, candles, whatever we like but that is as far as I see selecting.

So what about the development of that system as a skill set? Do you need to be relaxed - enough - to do a reading, for instance? If one prefers to have things that put them in the right state of time, is there a wrong state of mind?

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

The cards are always the right ones. 

Why though? And what about when you first started out reading cards - were they always the right ones then? Did you ever question wether or not you were getting the right cards? What makes them definitely the right ones, in your mind?

[katrinka]

59 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

Why though?

 

That's not something that's knowable. 
It's fascinating, though.

 

59 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

And what about when you first started out reading cards - were they always the right ones then?

 

I'm sure they were.

 

59 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

Did you ever question wether or not you were getting the right cards?

 

Of course. When I was new to reading, I obviously wasn't good at it. 
So there were times I thought the cards weren't working right when they actually were. I just wasn't getting the message.
 

59 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

What makes them definitely the right ones, in your mind?

 

When the reading plays out accurately.

[Marisa Kirisame]

 

[LogicalHue]

13 hours ago, stephanelli said:

Now, common sense tells us that cards chosen by chance can't hold any special meaning, or can they? To answer this question, let's look at randomness more closely. 

 

At every step, we are actively involved.

 

The question isn't so much "are the selections random or not" or "how do you feel like tarot is working at all" but: how do you feel confident that those elements, the non random factors, have resulted in the correct cards? Not the cards you might have gotten from shuffling once more or once less. Not the cards if you had done the reading at a different time of day? You made those choices. Were you always so confident that you made the right choices? Do you ever pull cards and think, "nah, this is nonsense, I did something wrong."? Have you ever?

 

11 hours ago, katrinka said:

When the reading plays out accurately.

 

Doesn't that mean though that sometimes the reading does not play out accurately and you've pulled the wrong cards?

 

11 hours ago, katrinka said:

So there were times I thought the cards weren't working right when they actually were. I just wasn't getting the message.

 

If I add this all up I get: When you were new to tarot you never drew the wrong cards, you just didn't always know how to interpret them. Now, sometimes you do pull the wrong cards, but you can tell the difference.

[LogicalHue]

@Marisa Kirisame Are you suggesting that shuffling is the skill?

 

For clarification, I'm not asking "physically, how you do you get the right cards in front of you?" I'm asking: why do you believe they are the right cards? And did you get better at this over time? And did you actually get better at getting the right cards, or did your confidence grow?

[stephanelli]

27 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

 

The question isn't so much "are the selections random or not" or "how do you feel like tarot is working at all" but: how do you feel confident that those elements, the non random factors, have resulted in the correct cards? Not the cards you might have gotten from shuffling once more or once less. Not the cards if you had done the reading at a different time of day? You made those choices. Were you always so confident that you made the right choices? Do you ever pull cards and think, "nah, this is nonsense, I did something wrong."? Have you ever?

Because that theory I posted above coupled with my intuition telling me to stop shuffling gives me all the confidence I need to know it is right. 

 

I can honestly say I have never doubted that I pulled the wrong cards.  I may have thought so at the time, but I never re-did any readings, and the meanings worked out in the end, even if it took a couple of months in some cases.

[Marisa Kirisame]

@LogicalHue, I'm posting (not for the first time on this forum) a link to a cool video on shuffling cards to achieve random enough card order in the deck. There is a continuation, it's linked to in the video description.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Marisa Kirisame

[TheLoracular]

15 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

When reading cards: what makes those the right cards to interpret in the first place?

My opinion:

You measure the success of a tarot reading by how accurate or helpful the information that the reader provides to the querent is.   It doesn't matter if the card(s) they drew have key words in some book that makes them the perfect answer or if those were the words the reader used.  It doesn't matter which deck it was, what cards were drawn. how the cards were shuffled.   Everything like that is style and preference.  

Since tarot reading is both a craft (reading books, watching videos, practicing, talking to other readers, etc.) and a kenning (empathy, intuition, understanding of psychology, possessing wisdom, personal life experiences), every single reader is going to develop their own acumen in how to make accurate/helpful readings.  There's no one way to do it.

The cards drawn are the right cards because any card will be the right card for an experienced and talented reader to use.  

[LogicalHue]

4 hours ago, TheLoracular said:

The cards drawn are the right cards because any card will be the right card for an experienced and talented reader to use.  

 

So its impossible to pull the wrong card(s)? From the first time someone lays hands on tarot they will never pull a wrong card for any reason?

 

(BTW, wrong / unhelpful / inaccurate / unrelated to the question at hand / doesn't answer the question / insert whatever works for you if the word "wrong" is too harsh or something.)

[HOLMES]

About wrong, 

Sometimes be it i am rested, grounded,

Or the person has a energy guard up.. 

Or the stars aren't aligned for some reason the reading just doesnt flow.. 

It is more then not interpretating the cards well.. 

It just wasn't meant to be.

I think in those cases.. besides the person natural blocking you.. 

That they knowing at this time would change their destiny more then it should.

It is rare but you do enough readings at a fair all day . Be a couple of readings where it just didn't work.

I had ine person come up to me saying i dont tell fortunes, for they had 3 readings and never came true, 

And made me doubt myself.. then i realized it could be the person feild. 

I know reading for distant aunt never worked.. 

But in those cases. It wasn't the wrong cards it was more.

 

We all know in doing enough readings, the client coming in not intentionally blocking you but trying hard not to offer anything due to fear of you using cold reading techiquez.

 

[katrinka]

6 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

Doesn't that mean though that sometimes the reading does not play out accurately and you've pulled the wrong cards?

 

No, it means I made the wrong call reading them. The information on the table was correct.

 

6 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

If I add this all up I get: When you were new to tarot you never drew the wrong cards, you just didn't always know how to interpret them. Now, sometimes you do pull the wrong cards, but you can tell the difference.

 

No, that's not what I was saying.
When I was new to Tarot I sometimes thought I drew the wrong cards, but they were the right cards. I just didn't know how to put them in context yet - because I was new.

Now I know, and the cards are still the right ones.

It's like that saying: "A poor workman blames his tools." When I was 13, I was still a "poor workman."

 

5 hours ago, stephanelli said:

I may have thought so at the time, but I never re-did any readings, and the meanings worked out in the end, even if it took a couple of months in some cases.

 

This.
 

26 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

 

(BTW, wrong / unhelpful / inaccurate / unrelated to the question at hand / doesn't answer the question / insert whatever works for you if the word "wrong" is too harsh or something.)

 

None of those happen, with the exception of "doesn't answer the question." It's rare, but sometimes the cards will "refuse" a question. 
But that doesn't mean they're the "wrong" cards. It means we're not supposed to know at the time of the draw.
IME when this happens, it's unmistakable. The cards are absurdly dire - basically "rocks fall, everyone dies!!!!!" lol. 
It's just the cards telling me to wait awhile, or get a trusted friend to pull a few cards. It's like shorthand for "take a deep breath, have some tea or a cocktail, and THEN tackle the issue." It's only ever happened when I was horribly stressed over the matter at hand.

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by katrinka

[LogicalHue]

3 hours ago, HOLMES said:

Or the stars aren't aligned for some reason the reading just doesnt flow.. 

It is more then not interpretating the cards well.. 

It just wasn't meant to be.

I think in those cases.. besides the person natural blocking you.. 

 

Can this be applied to reading for yourself? Can you just not be in the right headspace or whatever it may be?

 

Can the same idea be applied to a reader rather than the seeker?

 

3 hours ago, katrinka said:

It's like that saying: "A poor workman blames his tools." When I was 13, I was still a "poor workman."

 

But its really the opposite of this is what I'm driving at. A poor workman, in reality, is just bad at wielding their tools. They don't always blame their tools, one can feel that they are the problem and not defensively blame the tools. A reader is physically responsible for wielding the deck and getting the cards on the table.

 

Is your opinion that a reader plays absolutely no part in which cards come out? Is there no special sauce of the human component?

 

To use another imperfect metaphor - instead of workman's tools let's think of art or music. You can study without having the physical skill, you can have skill without the creativity. Anyone can blow into a trumpet and make sound come out, but only some can make music come out. In this silly metaphor, I am interpreting that you are saying that anyone can blow into a trumpet and music will come out. (I don't mean that by the transitive property you believe this to be true about actual trumpets 😉)

[HOLMES]

17 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

 

Can this be applied to reading for yourself? Can you just not be in the right headspace or whatever it may be?

 

Can the same idea be applied to a reader rather than the seeker?

 

I believe i covered both the reader frame of mind, and the client. 

I don't read for myself for i don't trust myself to be honest with my self. 

So it wouldn't be a true reading.

 

It is assumed though, i am rested, followed my rituals, and raring to go but for various reasons it didn't flow.  

 

 

[LogicalHue]

20 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

It is assumed though, i am rested, followed my rituals, and raring to go but for various reasons it didn't flow.  

 

What if you didn't do any of that? You're not rested, didn't do any rituals, and are in no mood. How does the reading go?

[katrinka]

46 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

Is your opinion that a reader plays absolutely no part in which cards come out? Is there no special sauce of the human component?

 

If they're honest, they play no part.

If they're stacking the deck, there's better money to be made cheating at poker.

 

46 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

 

To use another imperfect metaphor - instead of workman's tools let's think of art or music. You can study without having the physical skill, you can have skill without the creativity. Anyone can blow into a trumpet and make sound come out, but only some can make music come out. In this silly metaphor, I am interpreting that you are saying that anyone can blow into a trumpet and music will come out. (I don't mean that by the transitive property you believe this to be true about actual trumpets 😉)

 

No, because you have to learn card reading, just like playing music has to be learned. 

But shuffling is not reading. 

[HOLMES]

42 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

 

What if you didn't do any of that? You're not rested, didn't do any rituals, and are in no mood. How does the reading go?

 No clue, as i don't do readings unless on the forum. 

Then i rely on the feedback to let me know so i don't go around thinking i the boss of the tarot (phrase i heard from movie of crossroads, thinking hes the boss of the blues)

 

Edited 

Kidding aside,iwant to be sure i am going to do the best i can for the client.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by HOLMES

[Raggydoll]

Was it not Jodorowsky who said "Everything is a sign"? So basically - if you noticed it, it is a sign. I don't think there are any wrong cards or that you can shuffle 'wrong'. What sets a good reader apart from a bad reader, in my opinion, is that they can see the signs in every set of cards. And when someone feels that there are no 'wrong' or irrelevant cards, then they would also not pull clarifiers. The answer is always there, imo. And that is also the basis of how the Norse tradition "Utiseta" works. Its a shamanic method where you go out in nature, contemplate a question and then interpret the answer by the things that you notice in nature. If it stands out to you, it is a sign and it has an answer or a message for you. 

[gregory]

7 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

Can this be applied to reading for yourself? Can you just not be in the right headspace or whatever it may be?

Indeed. If I am not in the right headspace - I don't pull cards. I wait. On very few occasions (two that I recall) I haven't realised in time - so have left the cards that whatever "magics this stuff" put in my path, and read them later.

 

Quote

But its really the opposite of this is what I'm driving at. A poor workman, in reality, is just bad at wielding their tools. They don't always blame their tools, one can feel that they are the problem and not defensively blame the tools. A reader is physically responsible for wielding the deck and getting the cards on the table.

A poor workman still (probably) sharpens his tools, keeps them oiled and the rest. All I do with my deck is shuffle it - NOT in the same class. Unless you include storing it in silk, putting it over salt under a full moon and stuff. I don't actually have ANY rituals; I just make sure I am suitably calm, there is space on a table and a bottle of water nearby.

 

Quote

Is your opinion that a reader plays absolutely no part in which cards come out? Is there no special sauce of the human component?

That is certainly my opinion. If they did, they could also deliberately influence. It is entirely down to serendipity. And on one memorable (and slightly scary) occasion, the cards I pulled practically screamed "this is actually about HER, the one you were worrying about all night, not the person you drew for. LOOK at this, it's important, we'll do the other person later." It was alarming, but I did as I was "told", and it all worked out.

 

Quote

To use another imperfect metaphor - instead of workman's tools let's think of art or music. You can study without having the physical skill, you can have skill without the creativity. Anyone can blow into a trumpet and make sound come out, but only some can make music come out. In this silly metaphor, I am interpreting that you are saying that anyone can blow into a trumpet and music will come out. (I don't mean that by the transitive property you believe this to be true about actual trumpets 😉)

 

ACTUALLY - have you ever tried to blow into a trumpet and make a sound come out (apologies if you are a professional brass player.) As a trained musician there are many instruments out of which I can't get a single note. I am not a bad workman - I can play my own instruments well - but...

7 hours ago, katrinka said:

If they're honest, they play no part.

If they're stacking the deck, there's better money to be made cheating at poker.

 

Exactly this.

Quote

No, because you have to learn card reading, just like playing music has to be learned. 

But shuffling is not reading. 

 

This too. The reader comes into place when interpreting the cards serendipity has thrown in their path. Read what is on the table. What went before they landed there is in the lap of the - well, sorry, it's a phrase we all use - gods.

3 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Was it not Jodorowsky who said "Everything is a sign"? So basically - if you noticed it, it is a sign. I don't think there are any wrong cards or that you can shuffle 'wrong'. What sets a good reader apart from a bad reader, in my opinion, is that they can see the signs in every set of cards. And when someone feels that there are no 'wrong' or irrelevant cards, then they would also not pull clarifiers. The answer is always there, imo. And that is also the basis of how the Norse tradition "Utiseta" works. Its a shamanic method where you go out in nature, contemplate a question and then interpret the answer by the things that you notice in nature. If it stands out to you, it is a sign and it has an answer or a message for you. 

 

I don't actually much like Jodorowsky, but he's right there. Enriquez takes a similar approach - you can see tarot cards IRL everywhere you look. He's right - as I discovered when making my own deck. Even my partner - not a reader - often sees them now. Yes, we as readers develop our skills and our intuition - but the shuffling is just the preparation, like taking out your knife and wiping it before cutting into the cake.

 

The same applies to clarifiers. I never use them, and 99% of the time when I see people using them, it's fairly clear that they simply missed something in the cards they had already read. - or just didn't like what they got, and hoped to clarify to get a different result.

 

tl;dr Doing a good shuffle is important so that we don't get the same set of cards all the time and so that they are randomly (that's an important work here actually) ordered, but the resulting order has nothing to do with the reader, who simply needs to interpret what serendipity has laid out for their attention.

Edited May 11, 2021 by gregory

[stephanelli]

35 minutes ago, gregory said:

ACTUALLY - have you ever tried to blow into a trumpet and make a sound come out (apologies if you are a professional brass player.) As a trained musician there are many instruments out of which I can't get a single note. I am not a bad workman - I can play my own instruments well - but...

7 hours ago, katrinka said:

This!!!! So much this!!!!

(Actually, I can make an okay noise out of a trumpet)

 

Logical Hue,

A better metaphor would be something like a tin whistle or recorder where literally anyone can make a "noise" as you just have to breathe out gently into it but the language of music has to be learned to make the noise make sense (i.e. Sound good).

(ETA: actually, a lot of other instruments would be a better example now I think about it...)

 

As others said, same with cards. You have to learn the language.

 

 

I've also been pondering your questions some more and I think we can find something that has meaning or advice to our situation in any card that comes up.  So based on that idea, there can never be a wrong card because we can find something useful in any card given to us by the deck.