Card Selection vs Interpretation

May 11, 2021

I used to play the trumpet and yes, it does take some initial practice to even make a proper sound in it

May 11, 2021

Try the flute. Even the oboe is a bitch... I fully understand the mechanics of both - but no sound will come. It is still a sound available to those with the ability to use it. And the message in the most randomly drawn cards is available for those with eyes to see.

May 11, 2021

15 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

Is your opinion that a reader plays absolutely no part in which cards come out? Is there no special sauce of the human component?

So what I think you are driving at is "How do I become more psychic, more intuitive, more in touch with the vibration of my deck so that when I'm shuffling, I know exactly when to stop." I think you are asking us "How do I learn to sense what the right card is just by touching it before I even look at it?"

To quote myself: Since tarot reading is both a craft (reading books, watching videos, practicing, talking to other readers, etc.) and a kenning (empathy, intuition, understanding of psychology, possessing wisdom, personal life experiences), every single reader is going to develop their own acumen in how to make accurate/helpful readings. There's no one way to do it.

I wouldn't know how to teach someone else (craft) how to be more psychic (kenning). There are books and stuff out there that do supposedly teach it. Everyone has their personal experience in what feels right when they're getting ready to lay down a card. I wouldn't be able to put into words why I grab for "this card" and not "that card".

But my problem has never been a lack of kenning. My biggest problem as a professional tarot reader back in the day was to keep myself grounded/centered/objective and not dip into what other people were feeling and be affected by it, especially by grief and trauma. I had to spend a whole lot of time learning how to be more emotionally resilient and maintain poise and composure than anything else; -that- was the hardest part of being a professional tarot reader and life coach for me. I cry over other people's grief by nature. Even people in books and movies if I'm caught up in the story. Heck, I cry when I'm writing fiction and my characters are upset. XD

May 11, 2021

15 hours ago, katrinka said:

But shuffling is not reading.

You're missing my point. I'm comparing shuffling and anything else a person does to get cards out with playing an instrument or making art.

The specific inner workings of a trumpet were not important but you've all proved to be highly distractible. Tarot is a very difficult thing to compare to other things, but I'm trying and getting my ass handed to me for it.

15 hours ago, katrinka said:

If they're honest, they play no part.

If they're stacking the deck, there's better money to be made cheating at poker.

What I'm talking about here is a third option. An option you do not believe exists which is why we're talking passed each other.

7 minutes ago, TheLoracular said:

So what I think you are driving at is "How do I become more psychic, more intuitive, more in touch with the vibration of my deck so that when I'm shuffling, I know exactly when to stop." I think you are asking us "How do I learn to sense what the right card is just by touching it before I even look at it?"

I'm asking how individuals think about this for themselves. I'm looking for opinions, not directions. I'm just trying to make conversation, but no one's having the same conversation 😅

------------

Being on this forum and seeing absolutely no mention to getting out the right cards I've wondered: have the people of this forum forgotten about this problem they used to have? Or did they never have it in the first place?

What I missed when I posted this thread is there's some questions that comes first: Do you believe there are right cards and wrong cards? Do you believe the reader is fallible in card selection? What I'm getting from the people who have responded is a resounding "no" to those questions. But a pre-requisite for this conversation would be to answer "yes". I don't believe in the cleansing power of crystals or whatever it is people think they do, so I stay out of that part of the forum, I don't go into the topics to say "your question doesn't matter because crystals are just rocks".

I've seen one person mention in this forum that they shuffle their cards for each part of a spread because they don't believe that the right cards are just going to be in the right order from shuffling once. I've seen people talk about shuffling such that they wait for each card to fall out - which they've admitted is very time consuming which leads me to believe they feel strongly that this is the "right" way to get cards out, so there is a "wrong" way.

I'm not alone in thinking that the shuffler plays some part, has some potential impact on what cards come out. There's a "how does tarot work" article pinned which talks about giving the cards to the seeker to shuffle - implying some meaning to the physical handling of the cards.

You all seem to have the understanding that tarot is a completely separate third party entity. That has literally never occurred to me in my 20 years of doing tarot.

I'm not telling you that a reader plays a part in the cards that come out, or that there are right and wrong cards. I'm just trying to introduce more than one opinion into the mix. It was really just to get people talking about something no one ever seems to talk about here. But mostly I'm getting "crystals are just rocks". But that's not to say I'm not getting anything out of this, I am trying to understand your view point(s). Again, the idea you're all expressing had never really sunk in, because I'd always been seeing things through my particular lens.

(For the love of god, if you don't think my crystal-forum metaphor is perfect, try to just understand what I mean. I think you are all intelligent enough for a metaphor to not be perfect and you can still get it. If you can correct my metaphor, you understood it 😁)

May 11, 2021

1 hour ago, LogicalHue said:

I'm asking how individuals think about this for themselves. I'm looking for opinions, not directions. I'm just trying to make conversation, but no one's having the same conversation 😅

This last post was super helpful to me.

1 hour ago, LogicalHue said:

Being on this forum and seeing absolutely no mention to getting out the right cards I've wondered: have the people of this forum forgotten about this problem they used to have? Or did they never have it in the first place?

What I missed when I posted this thread is there's some questions that comes first: Do you believe there are right cards and wrong cards? Do you believe the reader is fallible in card selection? What I'm getting from the people who have responded is a resounding "no" to those questions. But a pre-requisite for this conversation would be to answer "yes".

-nods- I don't believe the reader can be fallible in ~just~ card selection if they have everything else going on just the way it should.

I do believe readers can be fallible in trying to read when they are too bad/sad/mad/distracted/sick and not in the right state of mind to do a reading. I do think that there's a lot of time and energy to be invested in learning how to read tarot and to know what every card means and the even harder trick to have the imagination and other gifts to know how to apply what they know about a specific card to a specific reading for a specific client. So I see all kinds of ways a reading can go badly and leave both reader and querent unsatisfied.

So in the context of "if you are in a crappy mood and doing a reading any way, is it possible you will draw the wrong card or interpret a card badly?" then my answer would be "Yep."

1 hour ago, LogicalHue said:

You all seem to have the understanding that tarot is a completely separate third party entity.

That isn't what I picked up from reading everyone's responses. I think there was just a communication glitch somewhere and that happens all the time in any active forum conversation about tarot or anything else 🙂 My goal with my last questions was to clear up a glitch and make sure you/me were on the same page and we weren't. Problem solved I hope.

Now, I am a metaphysical humanist. So my personal truth is that crystals -are- just rocks, what gives them special power over other rocks is that people believe they have power and the way having that crystal there, touching it, vibrating with it, making it sacred. The belief creates the power; you fill a space with more people sharing the same belief about the same thing and vibrating with it, making it sacred, and performing a chant, prayer, or ritual? Then all those entwined beliefs will create energy that will be felt by everyone there and create something even more profound.

But the crystal didn't create the vibe. The human combination of imagination+belief+physical activity created the vibe, using the crystal as the focus.

Does this mean I think people who use crystals to do A+B+C are deluding themselves. NOPE. Would it be as useful to me as it is probably for them to do A, B, or C? NOPE. Why? Because I'm a filthy metaphysical humanist and I lack their beliefs 🙂

Now I back that around back to tarot. Tarot cards are pretty pictures on cardstock to me by themselves. But? I believe that picking them up and using them to do divination, therapy, ceremonial ritual or self-development work will help me as a diviner, therapist, ceremonial ritualist or mental alchemist working on myself as a piece of art. I believe that tarot is absolutely the best way for me to do all kinds of things and because I believe it does? It doesn't matter if the "why" makes sense to anyone, including other tarot readers. The way my belief gets applied, combined with all the craft and kenning I've got, ensures that I won't get a card I can't use.

It doesn't guarantee that I will know immediately and perfectly, each and every time, what to say or write about when I look at it. But that combination of belief, knowledge base, and natural gifts will get me through.

Have I ever given a querent an answer and they told me "No, you are wrong." Yes. But I don't blame the card I drew for that. I don't blame the process I used to draw that card for that. I don't think there would have been a way for me to change how I shuffled or picked that card to ensure I got a specifically different card-- if I'm dead wrong when reading for someone? And a couple of times I have been? Something else was going on.

As a younger reader, especially when I was reading for clients for PRN? (worst life choice ever, lol)? I constantly agonized that I would get readings wrong. I'd been reading tarot for 8 years and been successful in face-to-face readings for clients just fine but doing phone work changed everything for me.  I lacked confidence, the waiting for the phone to ring was nerve-wracking and it is really hard and a terrible idea for readers and clients both to use exploitive corporations like Psychic Reader's Network or whatever is around these days in place of its collapse.

But it was the other factors like reading for a stranger over the phone, panicking over making enough money while feeling so awfully guilty for how much they were paying and not knowing as much as a 25 year old tarot reader as I knew as a 35 year old tarot reader that was the problem, not how I physically was drawing the cards themselves. Anxiety and fear of drawing the wrong cards or saying the wrong thing did sometimes cause me to draw the wrong cards and say the wrong thing. 🙂

I hope this is making sense.

Edited May 11, 2021 by TheLoracular

May 11, 2021

2 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

You're missing my point. I'm comparing shuffling and anything else a person does to get cards out with playing an instrument or making art.

The specific inner workings of a trumpet were not important but you've all proved to be highly distractible. Tarot is a very difficult thing to compare to other things, but I'm trying and getting my ass handed to me for it.

Nobody's doing that. You just don't like our answers.
Nobody always likes the answers they get. This may be why you assume the cards you get are sometimes the "wrong" cards.

2 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

What I'm talking about here is a third option. An option you do not believe exists which is why we're talking passed each other.

Don't you think it would be better to find someone who believes in it rather than call us "highly distractable"?

2 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

I'm asking how individuals think about this for themselves. I'm looking for opinions, not directions.

And that's exactly what you got.

2 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

Being on this forum and seeing absolutely no mention to getting out the right cards I've wondered: have the people of this forum forgotten about this problem they used to have? Or did they never have it in the first place?

That's already been addressed.

2 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

What I missed when I posted this thread is there's some questions that comes first: Do you believe there are right cards and wrong cards? Do you believe the reader is fallible in card selection? What I'm getting from the people who have responded is a resounding "no" to those questions. But a pre-requisite for this conversation would be to answer "yes".

Then that should have been made clear in the OP. It wasn't:

2 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

I don't believe in the cleansing power of crystals or whatever it is people think they do, so I stay out of that part of the forum, I don't go into the topics to say "your question doesn't matter because crystals are just rocks".

Wading into a thread where everyone just loves crystals and believes in them, and giving them a hard time is one thing.
But a thread that starts with "What are peoples' thoughts on crystals?" is another matter. There is room for those who don't believe in them to say so.

May 11, 2021

4 hours ago, TheLoracular said:

So what I think you are driving at is "How do I become more psychic, more intuitive, more in touch with the vibration of my deck so that when I'm shuffling, I know exactly when to stop." I think you are asking us "How do I learn to sense what the right card is just by touching it before I even look at it?"

If that's it - then - no, I don't think I do do that at all. As I've said - I think it's down to - I say serendipity, as chance feels kind of frivolous.

Quote

To quote myself: Since tarot reading is both a craft (reading books, watching videos, practicing, talking to other readers, etc.) and a kenning (empathy, intuition, understanding of psychology, possessing wisdom, personal life experiences), every single reader is going to develop their own acumen in how to make accurate/helpful readings. There's no one way to do it.

This is true. There is no one way. Too many people try to tell others they are doing it "wrong".

Quote

I wouldn't know how to teach someone else (craft) how to be more psychic (kenning). There are books and stuff out there that do supposedly teach it. Everyone has their personal experience in what feels right when they're getting ready to lay down a card. I wouldn't be able to put into words why I grab for "this card" and not "that card".

But my problem has never been a lack of kenning. My biggest problem as a professional tarot reader back in the day was to keep myself grounded/centered/objective and not dip into what other people were feeling and be affected by it,

That's the one thing I do try to do - to isolate myself from what others are thinking about it. I don't know how to put it into words either - I just trust serendipity to give me the cards I need.

4 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

You're missing my point. I'm comparing shuffling and anything else a person does to get cards out with playing an instrument or making art.

That's MY point that YOU are missing. I don't do anything special at all. I shuffle and draw.

Quote

The specific inner workings of a trumpet were not important but you've all proved to be highly distractible. Tarot is a very difficult thing to compare to other things, but I'm trying and getting my ass handed to me for it.

No-one is handing you your ass. We are all trying to tell you how it is for us. Well, I am.

Quote

What I'm talking about here is a third option. An option you do not believe exists which is why we're talking past each other.

No doubt it exists for you. But I think it doesn't for me.

Quote

I'm asking how individuals think about this for themselves. I'm looking for opinions, not directions. I'm just trying to make conversation, but no one's having the same conversation 😅

I am a great believer in the distractions of overthinking. My opinion is that thinking about it detracts from the doing.

Quote

Being on this forum and seeing absolutely no mention to getting out the right cards I've wondered: have the people of this forum forgotten about this problem they used to have? Or did they never have it in the first place?

Since you ask - I have had many problems over the years - but worrying about getting the right cards has never been one of them.

Quote

What I missed when I posted this thread is there's some questions that comes first: Do you believe there are right cards and wrong cards? Do you believe the reader is fallible in card selection? What I'm getting from the people who have responded is a resounding "no" to those questions. But a pre-requisite for this conversation would be to answer "yes".

Here we differ big time. There can NEVER be a pre-requisite answer to a question. The reader doesn't make the selection; it happens all by itself, sort of. I don't think we can (or actually should) "influence" the order of the cards when we shuffle. That would mean we would ourselves affect the cards' order even before reading. That's not OK, by me. Yes I believe there are "right cards" but I don't think the manner in which I shuffle is what determines which ones show up; I think that is down to serendipity. Some have said, instead, to the tarot gods, or to magic - but I feel you might find those words frivolous here.

Quote

I don't believe in the cleansing power of crystals or whatever it is people think they do, so I stay out of that part of the forum, I don't go into the topics to say "your question doesn't matter because crystals are just rocks".

I've seen one person mention in this forum that they shuffle their cards for each part of a spread because they don't believe that the right cards are just going to be in the right order from shuffling once. I've seen people talk about shuffling such that they wait for each card to fall out - which they've admitted is very time consuming which leads me to believe they feel strongly that this is the "right" way to get cards out, so there is a "wrong" way.

Each reader finds their own "right way" - but that doesn't mean they affect the card order when they shuffle, just that they need to get to that serendipity by their own route.

Quote

I'm not alone in thinking that the shuffler plays some part, has some potential impact on what cards come out. There's a "how does tarot work" article pinned which talks about giving the cards to the seeker to shuffle - implying some meaning to the physical handling of the cards.

Well, no I don't feel that the shuffler plays a part; I don't mind who shuffles the cards (except in terms of the deck not getting damaged). I simply trust that the right cards will fall when I draw them. But you're right - you're not alone in your feelings - they just aren't feelings I happen to share. Others do, I'm sure.

Quote

You all seem to have the understanding that tarot is a completely separate third party entity. That has literally never occurred to me in my 20 years of doing tarot.

And it has never not occurred to me, in my not 20 yet but getting there years.

Quote

I'm not telling you that a reader plays a part in the cards that come out, or that there are right and wrong cards. I'm just trying to introduce more than one opinion into the mix. It was really just to get people talking about something no one ever seems to talk about here. But mostly I'm getting "crystals are just rocks". But that's not to say I'm not getting anything out of this, I am trying to understand your view point(s). Again, the idea you're all expressing had never really sunk in, because I'd always been seeing things through my particular lens.

(For the love of god, if you don't think my crystal-forum metaphor is perfect, try to just understand what I mean. I think you are all intelligent enough for a metaphor to not be perfect and you can still get it. If you can correct my metaphor, you understood it 😁)

Your crystal metaphor works fine. Can you not understand my serendipity view - for which I can't honestly think of a metaphor.

3 hours ago, TheLoracular said:

-nods- I don't believe the reader can be fallible in ~just~ card selection if they have everything else going on just the way it should.

I do believe readers can be fallible in trying to read when they are too bad/sad/mad/distracted/sick and not in the right state of mind to do a reading. I do think that there's a lot of time and energy to be invested in learning how to read tarot and to know what every card means and the even harder trick to have the imagination and other gifts to know how to apply what they know about a specific card to a specific reading for a specific client. So I see all kinds of ways a reading can go badly and leave both reader and querent unsatisfied.

Oh yes. I will make sure not to read when I'm not up to it.

Quote

So in the context of "if you are in a crappy mood and doing a reading any way, is it possible you will draw the wrong card or interpret a card badly?" then my answer would be "Yep."

Do a crap job - yes. Pull the wrong card - I would say not - but you won't know what to do with it. So if that happens for me I leave the cards that I drew in the first place and come back to them later. Because I remain sure that they were the right cards; I'm just not ready for them.

Quote

The belief creates the power;

Yes. And my belief is that "the tarot gods" (let's go for broke !) will make sure I get the right cards.

Quote

Have I ever given a querent an answer and they told me "No, you are wrong." Yes. But I don't blame the card I drew for that. I don't blame the process I used to draw that card for that. I don't think there would have been a way for me to change how I shuffled or picked that card to ensure I got a specifically different card-

In my view - it would have been the right card - either I read it wrong - or - which can happen - the sitter was wrong to say I was wrong. Either in denial, or lacking some information which the cards had and they didn't. I'm sore you've had the experience where someone came back to you after a while and said "you know what you said about my daughter and I said you were wrong - well, she just told me..."

Tarot is strange stuff.

Edited May 11, 2021 by gregory
multiple typos

May 12, 2021

I think I actually answered the question when I said that I believe everything is a sign and there are no wrong cards. The skill lies not in ‘selecting’ cards but being able to interpret the ones you get. The example I gave about Utiseta was meant to point out that I don’t think shuffling is important. We can use anything to get an answer because whatever we notice is a sign. I do not believe that the tarot exists as a separate third agent, I believe that everything inter-are and that this is why everything can have relevance to us and be interpreted as a sign. ‘This is, because that is. That is, because this is’. Since everything inter-are and exists due to cause and effect, if you look deeply into anything then you can find everything else in there as well. That might sound like fluffy woo-woo talk, but it’s actually Buddhist logic 🙂 and it’s the best answer I can give as to how I personally view this topic

I do not think everyone is having different conversations. I understand what the others have been trying to say and I can see how it relates to the topic. The thing about instruments was a sidetrack and sure, not strictly relevant - but not a personal attack on you.

I can tell that everyone is at the stage where they are doing intensive quoting of one another and the thread starter seem a little bit frustrated. So I’m going to ask that we all take a nice deep breath and don’t let the atmosphere become agitated.

May 12, 2021

What an interesting subject! My own view is that any card can be applied to any situation. Some will be more challenging to do this with than others, and require more from us as readers to tease out the meaning.

For example, answering the question “Will my marriage be happy?” is much easier if one was to draw the Ten of Cups than, let’s say, the Knight of Swords. The Ten of Cups (and I’m using RWS here) clearly shows a happy family, it’s an easy “yes you will be happy”. The Knight of Swords would require a great deal more consideration, and probably some discussion in terms of what the querent wants in a partner, in order to be able to answer the question. It takes much more effort, but that does not mean the wrong card was drawn. In my own view, there’s no such thing as a “wrong” card - just a spectrum of how easy it is to interpret in answer to the question.

Some days, some readings, I would be stumped. That happens less to me with experience (12 years in July since I started reading tarot). But in short, to my way of thinking, there just aren’t any wrong cards. 🙂

May 12, 2021

This all fits to the experiment several of us did on AT years ago; we all read for the same person on the same issue, in our own way, with our own chosen decks and using whatever spread we liked. These ranged from a full CC to - well, I wouldn't have used more than three cards, for instance.

It was quite extraordinary; the cards drawn were very different, and the messages were't actually identical but they were all along the same lines with very similar advice, the same outcomes and the rest. Something out there had to have had something to do with it. The right cards showed up for all of us, even though we all shuffled differently and separately.

I agree with this from Stephanelli:

On 5/10/2021 at 12:40 AM, stephanelli said:

The other feature of a random event is that it has no inherent meaning. I roll a die and get a six, but there is no purpose to this result. I could just as easily roll a one, and the meaning would be the same - or would it? Do we really know these two outcomes are equal?

It's what we DO with that six, not the fact that we got it.

Also - if we affect the shuffle by imprinting something about the reading in some way - there is no explanation for the thing I mentioned further up:

On 5/11/2021 at 9:30 AM, gregory said:

And on one memorable (and slightly scary) occasion, the cards I pulled practically screamed "this is actually about HER, the one you were worrying about all night, not the person you drew for. LOOK at this, it's important, we'll do the other person later." It was alarming, but I did as I was "told", and it all worked out.

If I had been affecting things by the way I shuffled, I should have got the right cards for a reading about a friend's workplace. But that was not what I got at all. Something else decided this one for me.

@LogicalHue - most of us say at some point "Let's ask the cards" or "let's ask the Tarot."

What do you mean when you say that ? I know I mean "let's ask this third party as I can't answer that myself." I'm asking Tarot as a separate entity, in effect.

ETA - just read up some more. I see I disagree a bit with Raggy. That's a bit of a first..!

Edited May 12, 2021 by gregory

May 12, 2021

1 hour ago, gregory said:

ETA - just read up some more. I seer I disagree a bit with Raggy. That's a bit of a first..!

It just means that you are older and wiser. No news there.

May 12, 2021

I thought it meant that Raggy was talking about the ultimate level and gregs was talking about the relative level? 😁

But seriously, while at the ultimate level everything is said to be Mind and not separate at all, we tend to live our lives on the relative level. It's all well and good to have the realization that ultimately, there is no "other". But here in meatspace, it's another story. 😉

May 12, 2021

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

I thought it meant that Raggy was talking about the ultimate level and gregs was talking about the relative level? 😁

But seriously, while at the ultimate level everything is said to be Mind and not separate at all, we tend to live our lives on the relative level. It's all well and good to have the realization that ultimately, there is no "other". But here in meatspace, it's another story. 😉

Yes. But what I really meant is that we are interdependent (like Thich Nhat Hahn says, we "inter-are"), not that we are all one and the same 🙂 The other bit is more Zen philosophy, that the one who has clear sight can discover the whole universe in a flower (or in a tarot deck!). So the flower can therefore teach us about the universe. And since I also believe that everything is a sign, then if we notice a particular flower then it can be seen as having a message for us. The same goes with any cards that show up, they always have meaning and I do not believe that there are any wrong cards. I guess that is bordering the ultimate level though, and Gregorys angle is therefore more useful in everyday context and also more to the point ☺️ I do think this thread is really interesting and I am very grateful for it. It has made me think, and I also really appreciate what everyone else is sharing.

May 12, 2021

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

I thought it meant that Raggy was talking about the ultimate level and gregs was talking about the relative level? 😁

But seriously, while at the ultimate level everything is said to be Mind and not separate at all, we tend to live our lives on the relative level. It's all well and good to have the realization that ultimately, there is no "other". But here in meatspace, it's another story. 😉

First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.

May 12, 2021

What is the sound of one hand clapping...

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind.
One said, “The flag moves.”
The other said, “The wind moves.”
They argued back and forth but could not agree.
Hui-neng, the sixth patriarch, said: “Gentlemen! It is not the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is your mind that moves.”

May 12, 2021

I'm perfectly serious there, not being distracted. There are many unmeeting answers to every question.

May 12, 2021

40 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Yes. But what I really meant is that we are interdependent (like Thich Nhat Hahn says, we "inter-are"), not that we are all one and the same 🙂 The other bit is more Zen philosophy, that the one who has clear sight can discover the whole universe in a flower (or in a tarot deck!). So the flower can therefore teach us about the universe. And since I also believe that everything is a sign, then if we notice a particular flower then it can be seen as having a message for us. The same goes with any cards that show up, they always have meaning and I do not believe that there are any wrong cards. I guess that is bordering the ultimate level though, and Gregorys angle is therefore more useful in everyday context and also more to the point ☺️ I do think this thread is really interesting and I am very grateful for it. It has made me think, and I also really appreciate what everyone else is sharing.

Dependent arising or some such, right? It is, I believe, the thinking behind Tibetan sympathetic magic. It's also a good fit with the speculations of certain physicists and philosophers: That existence is a single thing from which we abstract difference. Katrinka's right, though, since we think by contrast and comparison we cannot get a view of the whole (excepting maybe through inspiration) and are thus stuck in differentiation.

Since we're being speculative, I like the idea that everything in this world is a symbol for some higher level of reality. So, yeah, like everything's a sign. But perhaps using tools like tarot, demarcating a time for sign spotting, helps us from slipping into nervous breakdowns,

May 12, 2021

WELL - to return to the original topic, I have to say that the header for this thread:

Card Selection vs Interpretation

does suggest to me that the OP sees it as one being more significant than the other (the word "vs" suggest this.) I can't see any scenario where how the cards are selected can possibly be more important - or even AS important - as what the reader takes from them when they are laid out.

Quote

When reading cards: what makes those the right cards to interpret in the first place?

Those cards are what we have in front of us to interpret.

So no - card selection as a skill or talent is not something that I feel people get better at over time as readers.I don't feel we are actually selecting them as such.

Quote

Is it something different people are just naturally better at than others? Is it not a consideration to you at all?

I don't think you can be "better" at card selection unless you spike the deck. And that would be interfering with what cards are being selected. You can of course get better at shuffling - I remain pretty bad at it, but I persevere, and I do it many times because I know my cards tend to clump. But no, I really do not believe that what I am doing there affects what serendipity wants to see on the table in front of me.

Is that perhaps a more relevant answer for you, @LogicalHue ?

Oh and also - what about those readers who like their sitter to shuffle and cut ? If OUR influence on what cards are drawn is so important - does that mean that those readers are in some way beyond the pale ? because they can have no effect on which those "right" cards are - but I think they will still be the right cards for the reading, whoever shuffles and draws.

Edited May 12, 2021 by gregory

May 12, 2021

2 hours ago, gregory said:

What is the sound of one hand clapping...

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind.
One said, “The flag moves.”
The other said, “The wind moves.”
They argued back and forth but could not agree.
Hui-neng, the sixth patriarch, said: “Gentlemen! It is not the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is your mind that moves.”

Oooh, I like that. Also very relevant. Perhaps Tarot reading could be classed as a supra-logical (or irrational) activity?

@LogicalHue

If it is the reader that somehow picks the right cards, then it might be relevant to keep in mind that a number of pedantically designed studies on the fringes of scientific inquiry have found that random processes (like shuffling) are the easiest to affect via one's consciousness. The results are small by everyday standards but very significant statistically.

Personally, I reckon a dud draw is more often than not a problem of interpretation. HOWEVER, I have found, and I only realised this once the phenomena was pointed out by someone else on this forum, that when I REALLY want a draw to be positive.... about every negative card in the pack shows up.

Edited May 12, 2021 by devin

May 12, 2021

54 minutes ago, devin said:

HOWEVER, I have found, and I only realised this once the phenomena was pointed out by someone else on this forum, that when I REALLY want a draw to be positive.... about every negative card in the pack shows up.

Interesting!! I had to stop and think, and I’m not entirely sure, but I believe that maybe I’ve had this experience too. I don’t often read for myself in those type of situations. At least not anymore. If I feel like I would want to hear a particular thing and that I might get worried by not hearing it, then I typically don’t pull any cards whatsoever. But that choice is based on previous experiences that sort of align with what you describe. Though, to take it a step further, I must ask - have you found those readings to be like self fulfilling prophecies or did they just mirror fears that never came to be?

May 12, 2021

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

Interesting!! I had to stop and think, and I’m not entirely sure, but I believe that maybe I’ve had this experience too. I don’t often read for myself in those type of situations. At least not anymore. If I feel like I would want to hear a particular thing and that I might get worried by not hearing it, then I typically don’t pull any cards whatsoever. But that choice is based on previous experiences that sort of align with what you describe. Though, to take it a step further, I must ask - have you found those readings to be like self fulfilling prophecies or did they just mirror fears that never came to be?

IME, fears that never came to be. I'm not saying that nothing bad ended up happening, just that it wasn't as bad as the cards made it out. I talked about it some here:

On 5/10/2021 at 3:04 PM, katrinka said:

None of those happen, with the exception of "doesn't answer the question." It's rare, but sometimes the cards will "refuse" a question.
But that doesn't mean they're the "wrong" cards. It means we're not supposed to know at the time of the draw.
IME when this happens, it's unmistakable. The cards are absurdly dire - basically "rocks fall, everyone dies!!!!!" lol.
It's just the cards telling me to wait awhile, or get a trusted friend to pull a few cards. It's like shorthand for "take a deep breath, have some tea or a cocktail, and THEN tackle the issue." It's only ever happened when I was horribly stressed over the matter at hand.

Maybe it's because in those instances, I wasn't sincerely asking a question, I was looking for reassurance. While it's understandable that we sometimes do that, it's a complete misuse of the cards. We need to stay neutral when reading - decks are not our mommies. 😉

Another reason not to believe a reading is a self-fulfilling prophecy - luckily, we aren't THAT suggestible!

Edited May 12, 2021 by katrinka

May 13, 2021

On 5/11/2021 at 2:06 PM, TheLoracular said:

So in the context of "if you are in a crappy mood and doing a reading any way, is it possible you will draw the wrong card or interpret a card badly?" then my answer would be "Yep."

To me, if being in a crappy mood can effect the card draws, then your mood, your mindset etc can always be effecting things. When I say mood, I don't mean like "if I think happy thoughts I'll get happy cards" more like if you're in the right place.

On 5/11/2021 at 2:06 PM, TheLoracular said:

That isn't what I picked up from reading everyone's responses.

I will use this as a response:

On 5/11/2021 at 4:48 PM, gregory said:

Yes. And my belief is that "the tarot gods" (let's go for broke !) will make sure I get the right cards.

On 5/11/2021 at 2:06 PM, TheLoracular said:

I hope this is making sense.

I think so.

On 5/11/2021 at 4:48 PM, gregory said:

No-one is handing you your ass. We are all trying to tell you how it is for us. Well, I am.

On 5/11/2021 at 4:46 PM, katrinka said:

Nobody's doing that. You just don't like our answers.

I am only talking about trumpets and the reaction to my trumpet metaphor and the fact that the entire conversation switched to trumpets. The only thing I didn't like was that the conversation topic switched to trumpets.

On 5/11/2021 at 4:46 PM, katrinka said:

Nobody always likes the answers they get. This may be why you assume the cards you get are sometimes the "wrong" cards.

I don't know what you're referring to about not liking the answers to my questions. At some point I probably expressed myself poorly. I have never thought of cards as "wrong" if I didn't like the answer. I have worried that I've done something wrong if they seem totally irrelevant. I understand that you disagree with the core concept of that worry. I think that that is a completely valid opinion, I don't even know that I disagree with you, its more that I've wondered about it so much and seen it discussed so little that I wanted to bring it up and get into it with people. I just thought it would be an interesting and friendly conversation. At worst some people would just be completely dismissive. I definitely didn't expect anyone to be this mean to me.

On 5/11/2021 at 4:46 PM, katrinka said:

Don't you think it would be better to find someone who believes in it rather than call us "highly distractable"?

The whole point of this thread was to foster further discussion about believing in it or not. I was only being silly, I wasn't trying to insult anyone with that comment. I'm sorry if that hit a button for you. Again, the whole topic was about trumpets for a minute. People taking a small thing I said that wasn't relevant and changing the subject to that thing is a button for me, but I was truly attempting to respond to it in a light-hearted fashion.

On 5/11/2021 at 4:46 PM, katrinka said:

And that's exactly what you got.

Mine was purely a response to the person I was responding to who asked if I was looking for a particular kind of help.

On 5/11/2021 at 4:46 PM, katrinka said:

That's already been addressed.

I meant that in the past, before I wrote this topic, that was what I wondered, and that that was the inspiration for this thread.

On 5/11/2021 at 4:46 PM, katrinka said:

Then that should have been made clear in the OP.

I invite you to re-read the first 9 words of the quoted selection: "What I missed when I posted this thread is". I was admitting that I didn't fully understand the depth of this and that I started out the topic in not the best way. I've been thinking about starting this topic, and had been writing and re-writing it, for a while now. I was trying to start it out more open ended, I maybe went too far in that direction.

On 5/11/2021 at 4:48 PM, gregory said:

There can NEVER be a pre-requisite answer to a question.

I wasn't speaking about an answer to a reading. It was about this topic of conversation. I'm not in any way suggesting that we can make the cards come out that suit our idea of the right answer and that that is a skill we should be developing. For the people who have never thought of this the way I have, the only option seems to be that I'm trying to cheat. Which really isn't what I'm talking about. I'm having trouble figuring out how to correct my phrasing so that this isn't what it sounds like to people.

On 5/11/2021 at 4:48 PM, gregory said:

And it has never not occurred to me, in my not 20 yet but getting there years.

Maybe I'm way off the mark, but the way you say this makes me feel that you think I'm trying to convince you of something. We have each been doing tarot for some time and each have thought about it completely differently the whole time. I just think that's fascinating.

On 5/11/2021 at 4:48 PM, gregory said:

Can you not understand my serendipity view

I do understand your point of view (I mean, I think, no one really ever knows for sure). I'm a little confused by the question, honestly. The selection you quoted was me saying that I'm hearing and understanding what you guys are saying in a way I hadn't before and I'm appreciating it. I'm not arguing the point.

23 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

the thread starter seem a little bit frustrated.

The trumpet nit-picking was frustating, yes. 🙂 But truly, at the time of my last post, that was the only thing I found frustrating. And mostly in a funny way. Kind of.

23 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I do not think everyone is having different conversations.

Well see, I mentioned some questions that inspired this post and you along with some other people seem to have taken that to mean that I'm re-asking the questions and haven't understood anything anyone has said so far and are therefore re-explaining yourselves and whatnot - so we're STILL not having the same conversation 🙂 This is a thing that happens to me a lot.

19 hours ago, Albadawn said:

My own view is that any card can be applied to any situation.

Something this is getting me thinking about is a study exercise where you ask one question and just go through the deck and think - what would that card mean as an answer to this question. Unfortunately I think that would probably be too boring to follow through with.

18 hours ago, gregory said:

This all fits to the experiment several of us did on AT years ago

The games for a mystery person had me thinking of doing what you're describing as a party game. But that would be a pretty niche party-going-set. Fun to hear you guys did that!

18 hours ago, gregory said:

there is no explanation for the thing I mentioned further up

I disagree that there's no explanation. You said yourself you were worrying about this person, just becasue you weren't consciously trying to make it happen doesn't mean it didn't come from you. Necessarily. Again, I'm not really trying to make any claims or convince you of anything.

18 hours ago, gregory said:

most of us say at some point "Let's ask the cards" or "let's ask the Tarot."

What do you mean when you say that ?

I don't know if I have a good answer to that. I do think of it as a conversation though. And I do think of doing tarot as including something other than myself. Nothing that I'm saying means I think I'm controlling the cards that come out or that its just me that the messages are coming from. Its not one or the other.

8 hours ago, gregory said:

Oh and also - what about those readers who like their sitter to shuffle and cut ? If OUR influence on what cards are drawn is so important - does that mean that those readers are in some way beyond the pale ?

This is specifically something I have wondered about a lot actually. And again, this goes into it being something I think about and wonder about, rather than being sure about one way or another. I used to think it was really important for the seeker to physically influence the cards. Not by cheating or whatever, but like an energy thing or what have you. But then I thought, what's the point of me doing the reading if I'm not the one shuffling? (Which is a rhetorical question.)

8 hours ago, devin said:

a number of pedantically designed studies on the fringes of scientific inquiry have found that random processes (like shuffling) are the easiest to affect via one's consciousness.

If I'm understanding you correctly then I feel like this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.

--------------

It took me over 3 hours to write and put together this post (and for some of that I was quite shaky and sweaty), I forgot to start dinner on time and am still eating later than I'd like. PSA: I am not great at talking. I'm really trying.

Edited May 13, 2021 by LogicalHue

May 13, 2021

6 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

I was only being silly, I wasn't trying to insult anyone with that comment. I'm sorry if that hit a button for you.

You didn't "hit a button for me." I doubt you hit a button, or a nerve, or any of that with anyone here, as none of us are like that.
Calling people "highly distractable" is, however, an ad hominem. It's essentially saying that we have the attention span of a gnat. Now you're attempting to walk it back by claiming you were "only being silly." And you're claiming people were "mean to you" here? We're not the ones who were flaming anyone. We disagreed with your premise. You went for the personal attack. End of story.

May 13, 2021

9 hours ago, gregory said:

does suggest to me that the OP sees it as one being more significant than the other (the word "vs" suggest this.) I can't see any scenario where how the cards are selected can possibly be more important - or even AS important - as what the reader takes from them when they are laid out.

(Typing on my phone from my bed because I remembered I didn't respond to this part). I did not mean to suggest that with vs, I just use that as a contrast and compare. Only suggesting that maybe they are both things when on this forum only one of them is recognized as part of the process. But I'll say, if you are in a mindset that you might be doing something wrong and failing to get the right cards out and you're just looking at nonsense, that's pretty important.

May 13, 2021

It can be difficult to know what tone something is written in. Clearly, participants in this thread do not agree about what tone things were said in or what was meant by certain words. I agree that the comment about distractability did not read as playful to me. But we have the thread starters word that it wasn’t meant to insult anyone. The same goes with the trumpet example. It wasn’t meant as nitpicking. I feel like this topic is going in circles and I think it can be best for everyone to let things die down for a while 🙂

Card Selection vs Interpretation

Recommended Posts

Raggydoll

gregory

TheLoracular

LogicalHue

TheLoracular

katrinka

gregory

Raggydoll

Albadawn

gregory

Raggydoll

katrinka

Raggydoll

devin

gregory

gregory

devin

gregory

devin

Raggydoll

katrinka

LogicalHue

katrinka

LogicalHue

Raggydoll

Home

Forums

Activity

Deck Library

Store

Important Information