Lenormand cards: folklore and significations

[katrinka]

@timtoldrum suggested a thread for this, and I agree that it's vital.

As for the Birch Rods, I always guessed that the association with stationery was due to the tail of the whip looking like the flourish on a signature, but I could be very, very wrong! Looking forward to this thread. 🙂

[Guest]

Thank you for starting the thread, @katrinka. 

The Petit Lenormand is steeped in folklore. Despite the near-universal acceptance of the Coffee Cards origin the 36 pictures could be found in popular ballads, cycles, folktales and emblem books.  Consequently, an understanding of this lore can enrich our understanding of the eikōns.
 

The traditional picture for card no. 11  shows a bundle of birch twigs. Sometimes there is also a scourge. 

 

The birch tree bark was a common substitute for paper. During the late eighteenth century, a number of texts from India and the Ottoman Empire entered European libraries. The we're also found in Slavic countries. 

 

The birch twigs are all sometimes used for brushes and cheaper reed pens. Acquiring bamboo was not always easy. You can still find birch bark paper and pencils. The former is quick popular for sigils. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Guest

[fire cat pickles]

Thank you both for doing this, for the idea and starting it. I won't have much to add, but I will be following along for sure!

 

I'm particularly interested in the nature aspects that were discussed in the previous thread such as the stork eating mice but the mice doesn't eat the stork. Can we have more of that, please?

[katrinka]

That makes perfect sense.
I sometimes see the Rods used as "dancing." Is that because of the doubling nature of the card? I'm thinking beats (one, two, one, two...), the fact that most dancing in those days required a partner, and repeating steps/movements. But my mnemonics are just that: mnemonics, not history.

[Guest]

Quite a few people wonder why we might choose the Cavalier as a male significator in love questions.

 

During the eighteenth century, a recognised lover of a married could be described as a chevalier servant. Contrary to popular belief, polite society tolerated the practice providing it was discreet.

 

In Italy, a woman might take a male companion who was homosexual. I cannot remember the Italian term.

 

So the Cavalier became an additional male figure in readings. He can be the lover and the Gentleman the husband. At other times, he might be the man on the horizon when the Gentleman is an ex or someone about to leave. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Guest

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I sometimes see the Rods used as "dancing." Is that because of the doubling nature of the card? I'm thinking beats (one, two, one, two...), the fact that most dancing in those days required a partner, and repeating steps/movements. But my mnemonics are just that: mnemonics, not history.

 

I've never found the answer to that. I've always assumed it was something to do with folk dancing, which sometimes uses a besom. It was common in the early modern period. 

 

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

I'm particularly interested in the nature aspects that were discussed in the previous thread such as the stork eating mice but the mice doesn't eat the stork.

 

The Stork can eat the Serpent. On older decks (Das Spiel der Hoffnung, Piatnik, Wüst) you will often see a frog, newt or lizard in the Stork’s mouth. Along with snakes, these are a common foodstuff for such birds. 

 

One of the most well-known fables is the Frog King. Depending on the telling a stork, crane or heron is sent to punish the perfidy of the frogs. Over time that has been translated to reading the cards due to the motif.

 

The Snakes eats the Mice has a similar genesis. Grain farmers attract rodents. Snakes followed rodents. Most snake bites occurred in rural areas in the eighteenth century. 

 

[fire cat pickles]

3 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

 

The Stork can eat the Serpent. On older decks (Das Spiel der Hoffnung, Piatnik, Wüst) you will often see a frog, newt or lizard in the Stork’s mouth. Along with snakes, these are a common foodstuff for such birds. 

 

One of the most well-known fables is the Frog King. Depending on the telling a stork, crane or heron is sent to punish the perfidy of the frogs. Over time that has been translated to reading the cards due to the motif.

 

The Snakes eats the Mice has a similar genesis. Grain farmers attract rodents. Snakes followed rodents. Most snake bites occurred in rural areas in the eighteenth century. 

 

 

Thank you for revisiting this.  (I have a bad case of CRS--can't remember $hit. I suppose I could've gone back and looked it up in the other thread, but it's good to have it here in this thread.)

 

A good mnemonic for me would be a reverse alphabetical st-sn-m... Stork eats Snake, Snake eats Mice.

[Guest]

One question that comes up often is the Birds as the card of conception and pregnancy.  It is an association held by Björn, Moony, Caitlín and myself. 
 

The traditional image for the Birds is two nesting pigeons.  Occasionally, you see newly hatched young.  Consequently, the image itself talks about new life being conceived and gestating.

 

Secondly, the card’s name in German and Dutch is “vogel.”  That term is used in one of the oldest poems, which talks about a longing to meet someone and to start a family. The author specifically evokes the birds building nests. 

 

The nesting Stork was not a common sight on Petit Lenormands. The Blaue Eule’s popularity is relatively recent. Certainly, up until the late nineties, the two patterns you saw in Europe was the Carta Mundi and Piatnik.  

Edited June 30, 2021 by Guest

[malvina]

I have a general question: how far do we go with nature parallels, like with the Stork eating the Serpent? For example, if we get a celestial card (the Sun, the Moon, the Stars) + the Mountain, we’re supposed to interpret the Mountain as an obstacle. Yet we know that no mountain can actually block the sky. Even if we say that the Sun and the Moon can be invisible from a certain angle, if the Mountain obscures our view, the Stars are still visible everywhere. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, malvina said:

I have a general question: how far do we go with nature parallels, like with the Stork eating the Serpent? For example, if we get a celestial card (the Sun, the Moon, the Stars) + the Mountain, we’re supposed to interpret the Mountain as an obstacle. Yet we know that no mountain can actually block the sky. Even if we say that the Sun and the Moon can be invisible from a certain angle, if the Mountain obscures our view, the Stars are still visible everywhere. 

The Mountain is an obstacle that is not insurmountable. It blocks our course for a time — either you climb it, or go around it.  The Stars + the Mountain can indicate a period of uncertainty, inner peace disturbed for a time. Your view is blocked but not forever.
 

Years ago I wrote an article on journal of a cartomante about the celestial cards (I’m sure it’s probably on FB or Scribd). But the celestial cards are thought to be stronger if above you and to the right (on a GT).  This is so they can light the path.

[malvina]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

The Mountain is an obstacle that is not insurmountable. It blocks our course for a time — either you climb it, or go around it.  The Stars + the Mountain can indicate a period of uncertainty, inner peace disturbed for a time. Your view is blocked but not forever.
 

Years ago I wrote an article on journal of a cartomante about the celestial cards (I’m sure it’s probably on FB or Scribd). But the celestial cards are thought to be stronger if above you and to the right (on a GT).  This is so they can light the path.

Your explanation makes sense, thank you! I forgot about the Mountain’s limited power in terms of not being a forever blockage. I’m curious how you’d interpret the reverse pairing then, the Mountain + something like the Stars? A literal reading would see a celestial body rising above/after the Mountain, finally illuminating the issue. But as far as I know, the Mountain’s right side leads to some kind of frustration. Which approach would take precedence here? 

[Decan]

Folklore is an appealing way to approach the cards!

[Guest]

19 hours ago, malvina said:

Your explanation makes sense, thank you! I forgot about the Mountain’s limited power in terms of not being a forever blockage. I’m curious how you’d interpret the reverse pairing then, the Mountain + something like the Stars? A literal reading would see a celestial body rising above/after the Mountain, finally illuminating the issue. But as far as I know, the Mountain’s right side leads to some kind of frustration. Which approach would take precedence here? 

All things being equal, the Mountain + the Stars would be dawning of clarity or calm after a period of frustration.

 

The two sides of the Mountain is deck-specific, and not all cartomantes agree on what the two sides mean. Some see it simply as new obstacles v. old. 

 

12 hours ago, Decan said:

Folklore is an appealing way to approach the cards!

I’ve always saw divination and fortune telling as a folk art.  I find it logical. 

[malvina]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

All things being equal, the Mountain + the Stars would be dawning of clarity or calm after a period of frustration.

 

The two sides of the Mountain is deck-specific, and not all cartomantes agree on what the two sides mean. Some see it simply as new obstacles v. old. 

Ah, I didn’t know that there’re conflicting opinions even about the Mountain. Thanks again! I often struggle with interpreting positive cards that come after negative ones, so it’s really helpful to see such examples🙏 And using common sense and the cards’ actual illustrations definitely seems like the best way to approach any reading.

[WizardintheWoods]

This subject I find fascinating to learn more about and, I might be wrong here, feels like the real root of the Lenormand system. 

[Guest]

20 hours ago, malvina said:

And using common sense and the cards’ actual illustrations definitely seems like the best way to approach any reading.

 

Contrary to popular belief, the 36 cards’ meanings all come from the picture. The image (not the individual symbols that make it), are the essence or core.  

 

When teaching, I liken each card to an eikōn. Traditionally, icons were said to be written not painted. Everything — colour, gesture, facing — was done to convey a concept. 

 

Each image as a whole has a statement. That is essence

15 hours ago, WizardintheWoods said:

This subject I find fascinating to learn more about and, I might be wrong here, feels like the real root of the Lenormand system. 

 

Folklore is the foundation of much if not all divination and fortune-telling. Due to the emphasis on specific models, we've lost that somewhat. But it is there in the cards for the cartomante explore.

 

[Guest]

It might be prudent to include a word or two on the Fox card and felines. 
 

Contrary to certain statements, I know French, Romanian, Dutch and Russian readers who see the Fox card as signifying cats. I do not understand why it is described as “German.” 

 

So, why?

 

Over time both foxes and cats were demonised. Foxes and cats were accused of shapeshifting and thus falseness. Cats, like foxes, we’re seen as aloof and disloyal.

 

In addition, we cannot forget the Reynard fables. In these stories, there is a character called Tybalt, Prince of Cats. He is variously described as a close friend, associate and cousin of Reynard. 

 

Do not also forget the European Wildcat. These animals can and do kill rabbits and small birds, such as chickens. In small communities keeping poultry was far more common than today — with predators also being more prevalent. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Guest

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Do not also forget the European Wildcat. These animals can and do kill rabbits and small birds, such as chickens. In small communities keeping poultry was far more common than today — with predators also being more prevalent. 

 

Yes. Felines are obligate carnivores.  And chickens are easy prey.
Even well-fed, loving cats will often hop up on the table and steal food from your plate if you turn your back. And I've heard stories of cats who decided for whatever reason that they liked the neighbors better and went to live with them. Cats do what's best for themselves.

 

Stories of loyalty and potential self sacrifice are rare. I can only recall hearing one: a man told me that his cat killed a rattlesnake he was about to step on. I couldn't tell you if the cat did that to save him, or if it just had a high prey drive and happened to notice the snake at that particular moment. But when he told me that story, he was in the supermarket buying a steak for the cat. 😁

You can't depend on them to do things like this, though. It's pretty special when it happens.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Yes. Felines are obligate carnivores.  And chickens are easy prey.

Yes. Although large farms existed, smaller holdings and so on were common.  The European Wildcat population has significantly decreased since the nineteenth century.  I’m not suggesting this occurred over-and-over, or they was the same threat foxes were, but cats will prey on small birds. People think chickens are too big — living in Shropshire, I saw cats kill chickens. Normally feral.

 

31 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Even well-fed, loving cats will often hop up on the table and steal food from your plate if you turn your back. And I've heard stories of cats who decided for whatever reason that they liked the neighbors better and went to live with them. Cats do what's best for themselves.

Like foxes.  Cats are survivors.  All the things we say about foxes (cunning, strategic, survivor) are applicable to cats.  My two Siamese are extremely cunning. I’m sure one can open doors, but I’ve not caught her yet. 
 

Cats have never been completely domesticated.  For myself, it’s one of their endearing qualities. But scientists cannot explain it. 

 

32 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Stories of loyalty and potential self sacrifice are rare. I can only recall hearing one: a man told me that his cat killed a rattlesnake he was about to step on. I couldn't tell you if the cat did that to save him, or if it just had a high prey drive and happened to notice the snake at that particular moment. But when he told me that story, he was in the supermarket buying a steak for the cat. 😁

Lol. I hope it was a best cut (as a vegan I’m not sure if cut is the right term)!  They do kill snakes.  Isn’t it thought that the one of the reasons the Ancient Egyptians prized them?  

[katrinka]

4 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Yes. Although large farms existed, smaller holdings and so on were common.  The European Wildcat population has significantly decreased since the nineteenth century.  I’m not suggesting this occurred over-and-over, or they was the same threat foxes were, but cats will prey on small birds. People think chickens are too big — living in Shropshire, I saw cats kill chickens. Normally feral.

 

I've seen that, too. Before all the ordinances came in, people kept chickens in their yards inside the city limits. Our next door neighbor had them, and occasionally one would fall prey to a cat.
 

4 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Like foxes.  Cats are survivors.  All the things we say about foxes (cunning, strategic, survivor) are applicable to cats.  My two Siamese are extremely cunning. I’m sure one can open doors, but I’ve not caught her yet. 
 

Cats have never been completely domesticated.  For myself, it’s one of their endearing qualities. But scientists cannot explain it. 

 

Yes.
Animals other than dogs and cats were coerced into service as food or draft animals. Dogs came willingly.
Cats also came willingly, but strictly on their own terms. 😁

 

4 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Lol. I hope it was a best cut (as a vegan I’m not sure if cut is the right term)!  They do kill snakes.  Isn’t it thought that the one of the reasons the Ancient Egyptians prized them?  

It was one of the better roundsteaks. Not super expensive, but very little fat and gristle.

There are a lot of ferals in my neighborhood. And there are no snakes to be seen, even though my area is home to a lot of them including venomous ones like rattlers, copperheads, coral snakes, and moccasins. The Egyptians were right.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, katrinka said:

There are a lot of ferals in my neighborhood. And there are no snakes to be seen, even though my area is home to a lot of them including venomous ones like rattlers, copperheads, coral snakes, and moccasins. The Egyptians were right.

Very much so. 

 

21 hours ago, katrinka said:

Cats also came willingly, but strictly on their own terms. 😁

Yep. 😁

[Guest]

Earlier today, someone contacted me via Circlestead about the Flowers card.  Specifically, its association with offers, agreements and pacts.

 

During the eighteenth and nineteenth century, le langage des fleurs reached its zenith.  Both individual flowers and arrangements had associations, which could be used to send coded messages of intent or offers by ardent suitors.  In addition, nosegays would be pinned to act as responses.  

 

Consequently, the Flowers card became associated with arrangements and pacts.

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Guest

[HOLMES]

Interesting thread for to me it gives a basis for letting Inuition and imagination to flow past the tradition birch rod is only punishment. 

 

I just watched the magicians who had its own incarnation of reynard the fox. 

I suppose it could be seen as modern folklore in next 20 30 40 50 years? 

 

One other thing about snakes eating mice is a further warning of if you let those mice in there, sooner or later be a snake coming for food. 

So if foxes can be seen as cats. 

 

Is fox with mice snake lime

hidden advice to get a cat before the snake comes a bites you ? 

 

[Guest]

On 7/22/2021 at 3:41 PM, HOLMES said:

Is fox with mice snake lime

hidden advice to get a cat before the snake comes a bites you ? 

Lol. Not sure that I would read it as such.  Fox — Serpent is a strong indicator of untrustworthiness. So, Fox — Serpent — Mice would counsel caution. You might see off a loss but another waits in the shadows.

 

On 7/22/2021 at 3:41 PM, HOLMES said:

Interesting thread for to me it gives a basis for letting Inuition and imagination to flow past the tradition birch rod is only punishment. 

Do remember that intuition is not supposition or guessing. Your intuition should still be congruent with the emblem.