Salut / Hello / Konnichiwa

[pelican_pilot]

Hello everyone,

 

I come from the world of astrology, and tarot was never something I was too interested in. Just recently, I happened to see something about Derek Walters' Fortune Teller's Mah Jongg deck (no longer available), and something about it made me curious. Since then I have been doing a little research into tarot, and might be interested in trying out a deck soon.

 

Actually, I do have a question that maybe someone has input for. (I didn't see a subforum for "Just Starting Out" or anything, so I hope it's ok if I just ask right here.) Something about the standard RSW doesn't really sit well with me. I've seen it, of course, at different times over the years, but it never gave me a desire to learn tarot, and it doesn't give me particularly good vibes, either. Now, I'm not 100% opposed to experimenting with the deck, since I have heard that it's really the gold standard for modern tarot. However, compared with other decks I have seen (this Mah Jongg deck included), RSW doesn't particularly inspire me to learn tarot.

 

Someone who is a big RSW fan might not understand my point of view, but I'm wondering if experienced tarot fans have any feeling about what a beginner could/should do in this situation. Also, if it's not getting too philosophical, what is the reason that the symbolism and iconography of this deck has taken root so strongly? The whole thing, to me, is just very... metal, from an elemental point of view. Cups, knives, swords, rings... I don't know. I just don't see it as elementally balanced.

 

I guess that's a little long-winded for an introduction, but here goes. Thanks for reading!

[Em]

Hi pelican_pilot! Welcome to the Tarot, Tea and ME. It is lovely to see you!  :-*

[Page of Ghosts]

Hi pelican_pilot !

 

I wasn't a big fan of the RWS in the beginning either but I ended up loving it in the end. That doesn't mean that I think you should get it just because. The art of it can be polarizing and a lot of people think it's butt ugly and aren't afraid to say so. The deck popularised having pictures on all the cards and I think that's one of the reasons why it's so iconic. There are earlier decks with full images for the cards, but that is a big post of tarot history, which I'm not a master in yet ;)

 

I haven't thought of all the suit emblems in the RWS being metal, probably because I see them easily as metaphor for what they mean and the realms they govern. The RWS didn't invent the suits either, but adopted them from earlier decks. They've been around for hundreds of years now, I think they're even in the Visconti deck which is super old, like late 1400's. There are a bunch of modern decks inspired by the RWS that have other emblems for the suits. Some might just have the elements, water, fire, air and earth. A good reason to get a RWS-inspired deck is that if you want to also read books and not go purely by intuition a big hunk of general beginners books are based on the RWS since it's the most popular system of the big 3 traditions (Marseille, RWS, Thoth). So if you have a RWS-deck or something with nicer artwork based on it that makes it easier to get what the book is talking about. Of course if there is a guidebook for a specific deck that you'd rather have you can use that instead. They usually have some basic tarot info and a few spreads in addition to info on all the cards. I hope you find a tarot deck that you like if you decide you want to learn :)

[RavenOfSummer]

Hello everyone,

 

I come from the world of astrology, and tarot was never something I was too interested in. Just recently, I happened to see something about Derek Walters' Fortune Teller's Mah Jongg deck (no longer available), and something about it made me curious. Since then I have been doing a little research into tarot, and might be interested in trying out a deck soon.

 

Actually, I do have a question that maybe someone has input for. (I didn't see a subforum for "Just Starting Out" or anything, so I hope it's ok if I just ask right here.) Something about the standard RSW doesn't really sit well with me. I've seen it, of course, at different times over the years, but it never gave me a desire to learn tarot, and it doesn't give me particularly good vibes, either. Now, I'm not 100% opposed to experimenting with the deck, since I have heard that it's really the gold standard for modern tarot. However, compared with other decks I have seen (this Mah Jongg deck included), RSW doesn't particularly inspire me to learn tarot.

 

Someone who is a big RSW fan might not understand my point of view, but I'm wondering if experienced tarot fans have any feeling about what a beginner could/should do in this situation. Also, if it's not getting too philosophical, what is the reason that the symbolism and iconography of this deck has taken root so strongly? The whole thing, to me, is just very... metal, from an elemental point of view. Cups, knives, swords, rings... I don't know. I just don't see it as elementally balanced.

 

I guess that's a little long-winded for an introduction, but here goes. Thanks for reading!

 

Hello pelican_pilot, and welcome to the forum! It's nice to have you here :)

 

I do understand your less than warm feelings for the RWS, and trust me, that is very common, even among avid tarot readers. It's true that with what are considered "modern" decks, the RWS has been highly influential, and many other decks draw on its imagery and symbolism. However, there is absolutely no rule that you need to learn with this deck. If a deck doesn't appeal to you, it probably won't be very good for you to learn on! So don't feel like the RWS has to be your first deck, or has to ever be your deck!

 

If you're interested in learning within the RWS "school" because it is so common, you have a couple of options. There are RWS "clones", which take the imagery from the deck but alter it in some way. So, for example, you might prefer something like the Universal Tarot, which has redrawn images copied from the RWS, or you might want the RWS drawings but with a different coloring, such as the Centennial edition of the RWS.

 

However, it sounds to me like the RWS images themselves are not very appealing to you. If this is the case, but you still want to learn the RWS system, there are many, MANY options of decks that are considered within the RWS school but have completely different imagery. For example, I myself learned on the Goddess Tarot which is an RWS-based deck. I also love the Llewellyn Tarot which sticks fairly closely to the RWS. These are just a couple of my favorites that I think could also be good for new readers, but there really are SO many options. Since you're into Mah Jongg, you could potentially find yourself more drawn to an East Asian-themed deck, for example.

 

If you just want to avoid the RWS school entirely, you could begin your studies in another school of decks. Some popular ones are the Thoth school, originating with the Thoth deck created by Aleister Crowley, and the Tarot de Marseilles which I believe is still the most popular system in France. I myself am primarily an RWS-school reader, so I don't know as much about the other deck systems, but lots of people here can offer guidance on those. Also there are historical decks if you want to get into the roots of where tarot comes from. So, there really are many options...it can be overwhelming as a newbie looking to get into tarot I know, but that's what your new forum family here is for :) Always ask questions, it's a great community of helpful and knowledgeable people here.

 

Regarding the elements...as you probably know there are four suits in a tarot deck, sometimes referred to as the "minor arcana"...they can be compared to the suits of a traditional play card deck. Then, there is the "trumps" or "major arcana" that represent universal archetypes or concepts.

 

The four suits are generally connected to the Four Elements of classical antiquity. These are Air, Earth, Fire, and Water. So unlike the Chinese elemental system, Metal is actually not traditionally associated with the tarot as an element. Within the RWS school, the four suits are traditionally represented as Swords, Pentacles, Wands, and Cups. The most common elemental associations are Swords=Air, Pentacles=Earth, Wands=Fire, and Cups=Water. So from that perspective, it is quite balanced if you're drawing on that elemental system. Some think of the major arcana as corresponding to the fifth element from the classical system, aether or quintessence.

 

I hope this makes sense and is helpful! Again, keep asking lots of questions- we're glad you're here :)

 

[pelican_pilot]

Hi pelican_pilot !

 

I wasn't a big fan of the RWS in the beginning either but I ended up loving it in the end. That doesn't mean that I think you should get it just because. The art of it can be polarizing and a lot of people think it's butt ugly and aren't afraid to say so. The deck popularised having pictures on all the cards and I think that's one of the reasons why it's so iconic. There are earlier decks with full images for the cards, but that is a big post of tarot history, which I'm not a master in yet ;)

 

I haven't thought of all the suit emblems in the RWS being metal, probably because I see them easily as metaphor for what they mean and the realms they govern. The RWS didn't invent the suits either, but adopted them from earlier decks. They've been around for hundreds of years now, I think they're even in the Visconti deck which is super old, like late 1400's. There are a bunch of modern decks inspired by the RWS that have other emblems for the suits. Some might just have the elements, water, fire, air and earth. A good reason to get a RWS-inspired deck is that if you want to also read books and not go purely by intuition a big hunk of general beginners books are based on the RWS since it's the most popular system of the big 3 traditions (Marseille, RWS, Thoth). So if you have a RWS-deck or something with nicer artwork based on it that makes it easier to get what the book is talking about. Of course if there is a guidebook for a specific deck that you'd rather have you can use that instead. They usually have some basic tarot info and a few spreads in addition to info on all the cards. I hope you find a tarot deck that you like if you decide you want to learn :)

 

Thank you so much, that's a great overview. Yeah, I'm not sure what it is about the RWS that doesn't really get me going too much. Maybe it's the art, or maybe it's the whole structure of the standard tarot deck that goes beyond just RWS as you mention. I'll have to see what I gravitate towards.

[pelican_pilot]

 

Hello pelican_pilot, and welcome to the forum! It's nice to have you here :)

 

 

Thanks for all that great info and the links! It will definitely take me some time to go through them as I check out the different decks. As I responded to Page of Ghosts, I'll have to see if it's just the RWS imagery I don't care for, or the whole structure.

 

That's helpful about the elements, too. I'm sure there is a rich history to explain the connection between the four suits and the four elements. Just from an image point of view, swords, cups, and pentacles (which are sometimes called coins, I think, and certainly look fairly metallic) are all pretty metal-heavy. So that's three of the four suits. I guess this sort of melts away as you become experienced, and you see cups as indicating water, but on a very surface level as I look through the cards it just seems like so many carry a metal energy! Maybe this isn't surprising historically speaking, if these cards have their roots in the Middle Ages, where metal was such a commodity and really a sign of power and wealth. More to follow up on.

 

-Alex

 

 

 

 

[Page of Ghosts]

Hi pelican_pilot !

 

I wasn't a big fan of the RWS in the beginning either but I ended up loving it in the end. That doesn't mean that I think you should get it just because. The art of it can be polarizing and a lot of people think it's butt ugly and aren't afraid to say so. The deck popularised having pictures on all the cards and I think that's one of the reasons why it's so iconic. There are earlier decks with full images for the cards, but that is a big post of tarot history, which I'm not a master in yet ;)

 

I haven't thought of all the suit emblems in the RWS being metal, probably because I see them easily as metaphor for what they mean and the realms they govern. The RWS didn't invent the suits either, but adopted them from earlier decks. They've been around for hundreds of years now, I think they're even in the Visconti deck which is super old, like late 1400's. There are a bunch of modern decks inspired by the RWS that have other emblems for the suits. Some might just have the elements, water, fire, air and earth. A good reason to get a RWS-inspired deck is that if you want to also read books and not go purely by intuition a big hunk of general beginners books are based on the RWS since it's the most popular system of the big 3 traditions (Marseille, RWS, Thoth). So if you have a RWS-deck or something with nicer artwork based on it that makes it easier to get what the book is talking about. Of course if there is a guidebook for a specific deck that you'd rather have you can use that instead. They usually have some basic tarot info and a few spreads in addition to info on all the cards. I hope you find a tarot deck that you like if you decide you want to learn :)

 

Thank you so much, that's a great overview. Yeah, I'm not sure what it is about the RWS that doesn't really get me going too much. Maybe it's the art, or maybe it's the whole structure of the standard tarot deck that goes beyond just RWS as you mention. I'll have to see what I gravitate towards.

 

Even if the RWS seems to dominate there are a lot of weird, quirky tarot decks that are very non-traditional. I'm sure you could start a beginner post over in the talking tarot-forum or ask about non-traditional decks in the tarot decks-forum if you decide to go for something else than the RWS and it's many grandchildren.

[EmpyreanKnight]

Hi pelican_pilot! Welcome to the Forums, and I hope you enjoy it here. :D

 

If you don't really connect with the RWS, then try to find a deck that truly resonates with you and which you can be passionate about. I would strongly suggest that you get one with a detailed and acclaimed companion book that you can work with so that you can really go in-depth with your studies. With this you can at least begin your Tarot journey by delving into a system that has a solid foundation which will serve you in good stead later on. It should also give you a consistent structure so that you won't get lost in the middle of your studies. This is not absolutely mandatory, but it will help make your journey easier in the long run.

 

Some readers do have formidable intuitive gifts from the start, and they can just read the cards just by forming their own personal system. They are rather rare tho, but if you belong there then good for you!

 

I started out with the Thoth, one of the three main Tarot systems along with the RWS and the Marseille. Later on I got my hands on the Centennial Tarot. It is an RWS deck with visuals and style that absolutely floored me, and with it I began to have a greater connection with the RWS system. I have a lot of books on it now and even got myself 3 RWS-inspired decks that I'm planning to study with it, since I've planned that in 2018 I shall fully immerse myself in that system.

 

So yeah, may you find what yoi're looking for, pelican_pilot. :)

[pelican_pilot]

Hi pelican_pilot! Welcome to the Forums, and I hope you enjoy it here. :D

 

If you don't really connect with the RWS, then try to find a deck that truly resonates with you and which you can be passionate about. I would strongly suggest that you get one with a detailed and acclaimed companion book that you can work with so that you can really go in-depth with your studies. With this you can at least begin your Tarot journey by delving into a system that has a solid foundation which will serve you in good stead later on. It should also give you a consistent structure so that you won't get lost in the middle of your studies. This is not absolutely mandatory, but it will help make your journey easier in the long run.

 

Some readers do have formidable intuitive gifts from the start, and they can just read the cards just by forming their own personal system. They are rather rare tho, but if you belong there then good for you!

 

I started out with the Thoth, one of the three main Tarot systems along with the RWS and the Marseille. Later on I got my hands on the Centennial Tarot. It is an RWS deck with visuals and style that absolutely floored me, and with it I began to have a greater connection with the RWS system. I have a lot of books on it now and even got myself 3 RWS-inspired decks that I'm planning to study with it, since I've planned that in 2018 I shall fully immerse myself in that system.

 

So yeah, may you find what yoi're looking for, pelican_pilot. :)

 

Excellent, and thanks for the welcome. I know that I am a very intuitive person by nature... ( I think you'd have to be to look into tarot, right?) I will continue to check out all the options!

[timreheht]

There are so many decks that break away from the styles and framework so heavily associated with the hermetic order of the golden dawn. (Rider Waite and Thoth).

 

If the overall structure of the deck is bothersome you might consider oracle cards as an option more up your alley, as generally tarot decks will have around 78 cards broken into what is essentially major and minor arcana, and then elemental pips and court cards of some description.

 

I find the rider and waite and thoth decks to be stifling and it bothers me that the average layperson credits them with the structure and design rights of modern tarot, as they utilized several pre existing decks to produce their own 'melting pot' replicas. The deck that is most heavily plagarized by rider and waite is tarot de marseilles, but there are several. The best that can be said is they popularized pre existing systems, while taking credit for them and distorting elements of them to the point that in some cases the original divinations are lost forever.

 

But i digress. In summary, there is much more to tarot than Rider and Waite.

 

[pelican_pilot]

There are so many decks that break away from the styles and framework so heavily associated with the hermetic order of the golden dawn. (Rider Waite and Thoth).

 

If the overall structure of the deck is bothersome you might consider oracle cards as an option more up your alley, as generally tarot decks will have around 78 cards broken into what is essentially major and minor arcana, and then elemental pips and court cards of some description.

 

I find the rider and waite and thoth decks to be stifling and it bothers me that the average layperson credits them with the structure and design rights of modern tarot, as they utilized several pre existing decks to produce their own 'melting pot' replicas. The deck that is most heavily plagarized by rider and waite is tarot de marseilles, but there are several. The best that can be said is they popularized pre existing systems, while taking credit for them and distorting elements of them to the point that in some cases the original divinations are lost forever.

 

But i digress. In summary, there is much more to tarot than Rider and Waite.

 

Yes, well, I'm slightly uncertain of the logic behind the formalized Rider tradition as well. In astrology, where we are concerned (or at least more research-oriented astrologers are concerned) with the accuracy of methods, it is useful to have a formal approach for testing purposes. But in tarot, there is no working principle besides intuition, right? (What makes the cards "work"?) Since that's the case, the only function of cards should be to enhance the reader's intuition. It's the intuition that will make or break the reading in any case. I do understand the notion of a deck's being innately "powerful" due to the cards' iconography, numerology, and even psychic content, but surely this power also imposes its own restrictions.

 

I have been looking into the TdM, and some of the nature-oriented decks seem kind of cool to me. Also, as a 78-card deck Chrysalis Tarot has some great illustrations.

 

[timreheht]

I have to say pelican_pilot, i thoroughly disagree with you in regard to astrology having finite accuracy of methods or a formal testing approach. I would reference the issue of conflicting theories of tropical zodiac versus sidereal zodiac, and the questionable legitimacy of uranus, neptune and pluto being relevant to the hypothetically accurate western astrology (tropical zodiac). As well as the many issues of legitimacy of so called "Vedic" astrology, or more accurately named, Hindu astrology (sidereal zodiac), for example, the fact that the current interpretation of this version of astrology has only existed for a few decades, and the 5000 year old Vedic wisdom that modern Hindu astrology references as being the roots of practices and knowledge passed down in a consistent lineage of information relates singularly to the lunar phases and any reference in the original text to planetary positioning is merely coincidental.

 

Im not saying that astrology isn't helpful or meaningful for the people who choose to include it in their belief systems, but the basis on which astrologers map out birth charts and astrological forecasts from historical records is certainly no more founded in reality or logic than the basis on which someone maps out their understanding of tarot divination based on historical records.

 

I hope you dont find that too critical or hostile but I think its very important to bring up in relation to what you are implying.

[pelican_pilot]

I have to say pelican_pilot, i thoroughly disagree with you in regard to astrology having finite accuracy of methods or a formal testing approach. I would reference the issue of conflicting theories of tropical zodiac versus sidereal zodiac, and the questionable legitimacy of uranus, neptune and pluto being relevant to the hypothetically accurate western astrology (tropical zodiac). As well as the many issues of legitimacy of so called "Vedic" astrology, or more accurately named, Hindu astrology (sidereal zodiac), for example, the fact that the current interpretation of this version of astrology has only existed for a few decades, and the 5000 year old Vedic wisdom that modern Hindu astrology references as being the roots of practices and knowledge passed down in a consistent lineage of information relates singularly to the lunar phases and any reference in the original text to planetary positioning is merely coincidental.

 

Im not saying that astrology isn't helpful or meaningful for the people who choose to include it in their belief systems, but the basis on which astrologers map out birth charts and astrological forecasts from historical records is certainly no more founded in reality or logic than the basis on which someone maps out their understanding of tarot divination based on historical records.

 

I hope you dont find that too critical or hostile but I think its very important to bring up in relation to what you are implying.

 

Well, that's exactly why we test techniques-- because of the huge range of conflicting theories. If you start out with the assumption that all techniques are correct, you kill astrology because many techniques contradict each other. You test the techniques to find out what works, no matter what tradition they come from. Many people don't even know that it is possible to test astrology in this way, since very few astrologers take a research approach.

 

I'm not sure which original text you're referring to, but Brihat Parashara Hora Shatra and Jaimini Sutras, to name two, are very ancient and well respected Vedic texts and they both include copious information on the planets besides the moon. There is no surviving text anywhere near 5000 years old on astrology (aside from some Babylonian cuniform eclipse observations), so I'm not sure how we could know that astrology at this point related only to lunar phases.

 

And, as per the point about research, it wouldn't really matter, anyway. The idea is to refine techniques that work and discard those that don't! My reason for bringing up this comparison was that, even theoretically speaking, I don't think there could be any testable "techniques" to use in tarot since you are choosing cards from a deck by random (or by intuition). Thus, the M.O. for tarot would have to be psychic or intuitive. Which doesn't degrade it; it just differentiates it from the portions of astrology (by no means all of astrology) that are testable.