When the internet misinforms people...

[katrinka]

A lot of RWS cards are badly explained on the net. Feel free to post about that here!

We'll start with the 8 of Pentacles. Andy's mentioned this before, and it's been on my mind:

 

There's a man chiseling pentacles, much the way somebody might create a popular item again and again for their etsy shop.

All the pentacles appear to be done correctly. There is no indication of another person on the card.  So where are people getting "apprentice"? A google search on "8 of pentacles apprentice" returns 42,100 results.

 

But there is no visual evidence of this.

Waite says "An artist in stone at his work, which he exhibits in the form of trophies. Divinatory Meanings: Work, employment, commission, craftsmanship, skill in craft and business, perhaps in the preparatory stage. Reversed: Voided ambition, vanity, cupidity, exaction, usury. It may also signify the possession of skill, in the sense of the ingenious mind turned to cunning and intrigue." That's all. And "perhaps in the preparatory stage" is not the same thing as saying "This card means apprenticeship." It's just one possibility, and often not the case.

Waite seems to be saying it's a card of work and craftsmanship.

It's Prudence in the Thoth, and that makes sense here, too. The guy has already learned from mistakes he made in the past, he's not an amateur. He chisels carefully, the pentacles are good. Even the one on the floor looks correct, it's not discarded. I like to think of this as the "Measure twice, cut once" card.

 

I sometimes see people saying that's "town" in the background and he's working "out of town." But it looks to me like a big building with a tower. In any case, I don't assign that any special significance.

[Saturn Celeste]

13 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I like to think of this as the "Measure twice, cut once" card.

I love this!  I don't associate that card with apprentice either.  When I draw the card for others, I tend to read it as work or projects related.  I would like to see your opinion on the 5 of Swords.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Saturn Celeste

[Decan]

Interesting.

Here we are with the 8, it’s not really logical to emphasize the meaning of apprenticeship for a card that is near the end of the suit of Pentacles.

[katrinka]

10 minutes ago, Saturn Celeste said:

I love this!  I don't associate that card with apprentice either.  When I draw the card for others, I tend to read it as work or projects related.  I would like to see your opinion on the 5 of Swords.

 

Oddly, that one seems to get misread a lot less badly than the 8P, even though the image is a lot more ambiguous:

 

It's one that Waite put a little blind on, I think. A good litmus test for Golden Dawn decks is the Thoth, and it's Defeat in that one, but in the RWS image, the focus is shifted to the winner. Still, most people read it as defeat. Go figure!

 

People tend to talk about unfairness with this one. The guy is smirking, so he's not very classy or sportsmanly, but he just fought off two guys - how is he unfair? There may be more - there's five swords on the card - but we don't see them or know whose side they were on. I don't read it as unfairness.

It can be defeat, realizing your limitations. In the RWS it's a two sided card. I like to read the cards in the left as the losing side and the cards on the right as winning, but that's just me. There's a storm on the way - look at those clouds - so there might be another round in the future.

 

12 minutes ago, Decan said:

Here we are with the 8, it’s not really logical to emphasize the meaning of apprenticeship for a card that is near the end of the suit of Pentacles.

 

That too.
There is MUCH to be said for logic in cartomancy! 🙂

[Saturn Celeste]

15 minutes ago, katrinka said:

A good litmus test for Golden Dawn decks is the Thoth, and it's Defeat in that one, but in the RWS image, the focus is shifted to the winner. Still, most people read it as defeat. Go figure!

Thank you Katrinka!

[Grandma]

Misinformation on the INTERNET???? Who woulda thought????  I get my Tarot information from Fox News.  

 

 

[katrinka]

12 minutes ago, Grandma said:

Misinformation on the INTERNET???? Who woulda thought????  I get my Tarot information from Fox News. 

 

 

[Grandma]

Edited August 21, 2021 by Grandma

[TheStarOfCups]

@katrinka
I tend to think of the 8 of pentacles as a hard worker card. As Smith designed the card, it shows a man chiseling the pentacles. He's putting in the hard work to accomplish his goal. I understand how some people could see this as an apprentice as he has not yet reached the end of his journey. He's not the King yet! So, in that sense that he's working but hasn't yet gotten to the status he wants to be at. The interpretation as an apprentice might stem from that logic.

 

Honestly, I try to understand lots of different meanings for the cards. Since the world is so diverse and so many people get readings, I feel like having lots of meanings (as long as they don't deviate too much from the original meaning of the card) helps many different people understand and relate to tarot. However, if a meaning doesn't resonate with me, I won't keep it with me in my repertoire.

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Grandma said:

 

(There are other cards which would have been more appropriate.  The Queen of Pentacles is on my mind because of the Creative Circle.)

 

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
The perfect clueless expression!

Drat. If I was better at this, I'd do Bill O'Reilly as the page of Cups. And this Rudy image as the fish:

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by katrinka

[katrinka]

56 minutes ago, TheStarOfCups said:

@katrinka
I tend to think of the 8 of pentacles as a hard worker card. As Smith designed the card, it shows a man chiseling the pentacles. He's putting in the hard work to accomplish his goal. I understand how some people could see this as an apprentice as he has not yet reached the end of his journey. He's not the King yet! So, in that sense that he's working but hasn't yet gotten to the status he wants to be at. The interpretation as an apprentice might stem from that logic.

 

There's always more to do, further to go, yes. But a lot of people are self-taught, no mentor, no apprenticeship.
It's possible he's an apprentice. But that would mean he's working for someone more skilled in order to learn the trade. We don't see another person in the card, so we can't definitively say that's what he's doing.

I'd say "apprentice" is one small possibility that might be true, if there are other cards to support that. Maybe a King nearby for the master craftsman, something like that. But I wouldn't let it define the card. 😉

 

56 minutes ago, TheStarOfCups said:

Honestly, I try to understand lots of different meanings for the cards. Since the world is so diverse and so many people get readings, I feel like having lots of meanings (as long as they don't deviate too much from the original meaning of the card) helps many different people understand and relate to tarot. However, if a meaning doesn't resonate with me, I won't keep it with me in my repertoire.

 

This. I like to look at everything and try to see the logic behind it. Sometimes I learn something, sometimes I laugh, and sometimes I just groan, lol. But it's always interesting.

[Bodhiseed]

Makes me think of a writer, cranking out chapters for a novel to meet a deadline. Getting away from noise and distractions helps him concentrate.

[katrinka]

27 minutes ago, Bodhiseed said:

Makes me think of a writer, cranking out chapters for a novel to meet a deadline. Getting away from noise and distractions helps him concentrate.

On the 8? But what indicates noise and distraction?
It looks like an old tower house like we were talking about in the Lenormand threads recently, along with another large house.
Possibly an aristocrat's residence, and very quiet...

 

It's also possible PCS just thought that the image would look nicer if she put something there to fill that space. No particular significance intended. 😉

Edited August 21, 2021 by katrinka

[fire cat pickles]

We have an apprentice card—the 3 of Pentacles,  "Works". It's noisy, it's got people telling other people what to do. It's  a busy card. And it lays the groundwork for things to come. It's all right there...

[katrinka]

4 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

We have an apprentice card—the 3 of Pentacles,  "Works". It's noisy, it's got people telling other people what to do. It's  a busy card. And it lays the groundwork for things to come. It's all right there...

Yes. No need for a second apprentice card,

 

At least I'm guessing the guy holding the plans is the master stonecutter. That cloak is a little odd, maybe this is a Lodge. It's kind of faux-Masonic. 😁
 

[Grandma]

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

Drat. If I was better at this, I'd do Bill O'Reilly as the page of Cups. And this Rudy image as the fish:

 

Here ya go pal!

 

By the way I changed Tucker from the Queen of Pentacles to the Eight which was after all the card being discussed.  I like it!

 

[katrinka]

*right clicks and saves to hard drive*
Thank you, that's AWESOME and it's going on my social media. 🤣 I'll work up some kind of caption. (Hmmm...Roofie Guiliani...) Would you prefer attribution or anonymity?

The 8 fits Tucker. He's definitely chiseling, just not in the literal sense. 😁

[Grandma]

I'm glad you like it @katrinka!  Since attribution as "Grandma" is de facto anonymous why not go for both!

[katrinka]

Will do!

[Vesta]

I'm starting to study the RWS for the first time.  This thread is very helpful.

 

What I've been noticing about the 8P is how focused this guy is--almost to the point of tunnel vision.  He seems very concerned with the quality of his work but he's going for quantity too.  He ran out of room on the wall for his finished pentacles and now has to go to the floor.  If this card came up in a reading, I'd wonder if the querent isn't focused on work to the exclusion of everything else and that s/he is missing out on other important matters.   I suppose that an alternative reading would be that you need

to be focused on work above all.  I imagine that those are probably very common interpretations of the card.

 

I agree that the man doesn't appear to be an apprentice.  There's just no evidence on the card to support that.

[katrinka]

25 minutes ago, Vesta said:

What I've been noticing about the 8P is how focused this guy is--almost to the point of tunnel vision.  He seems very concerned with the quality of his work but he's going for quantity too.  He ran out of room on the wall for his finished pentacles and now has to go to the floor. 

 

Yes! He's not worried about where to put the one on the floor at the moment. He's fully concentrating on his work.
It fits "Prudence" and "measure twice, cut once." It's not a situation where he can erase or paint over mistakes. If he makes a mistake with the chisel, the piece is ruined.
 

25 minutes ago, Vesta said:

If this card came up in a reading, I'd wonder if the querent isn't focused on work to the exclusion of everything else and that s/he is missing out on other important matters. 

 

That's a good insight. I think it would be particularly relevant if the 8P was accompanied by negative cards, or if it was reversed.
 

25 minutes ago, Vesta said:

I suppose that an alternative reading would be that you need

to be focused on work above all.  I imagine that those are probably very common interpretations of the card.

 

Yes, whatever the work is. If you're reading about a relationship, it's being focused on that, paying attention. Etc.

 

[Vesta]

 

19 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Yes! He's not worried about where to put the one on the floor at the moment. He's fully concentrating on his work.
It fits "Prudence" and "measure twice, cut once." It's not a situation where he can erase or paint over mistakes. If he makes a mistake with the chisel, the piece is ruined.

Truly.  I like the "measure once, cut twice" reference.  It reminds me of when I'm sewing something complicated and giving my full attention so I don't screw it up.

[katrinka]

It definitely applies to sewing!

[Vesta]

LOL @katrinka!  There's some food for thought.  I keep telling my cats that they need to get part-time jobs.

[euripides]

8 hours ago, Vesta said:

I agree that the man doesn't appear to be an apprentice.  There's just no evidence on the card to support that.

 

Though the 'going for quantity' is perhaps a factor there - in traditional artist's workshops, apprentices would do a lot of the 'legwork' - underpainting, blocking in clothing, and so on - as well as doing the bulk of minor commissions that would be finished off by the master. Apprentice doesn't always mean 'learner' in quite the way we might use it now. Apprenticeships were *long*. There's often a lot of debate around works as to whether they are 'by' a 'master' or 'attributed' or 'from the workshop of'.  Like I'm not saying 'this is so', it's just that's how I might justify such an interpretation.

 

I might perhaps also interpret this as the final step in apprenticeship - turning out a set of wares that demonstrates one's capacities to create works consistently and to standard. Not saying that it's necessarily right, that's just what I might read. But yeah, it's a bit of an edge usecase rather than a central meaning, for sure.

 

I think a lot of these meanings get generated when people are looking to write 'original' material and push metaphors and stretch ideas in order not to be duplicating other sources. There's only so much you can say about some cards. Also the breadth of metaphor that is generated by a lot of new decks, which add extra symbolism that is then ported back to the original RWS.