When the internet misinforms people...

[Rupicapra]

I like to see the 8 of Pents more as the Master Craftsman. In Germany where I grew up there is a long tradition for the progress in craftmenship, it is part of the European guildsystem. Crafts e.g. joiner and caprenter, roofer, plasterer, but also electricians, baker and all that begin with their apprenticeship as teenager usually. After about three years of apprenticeship as a mix of on the job work and formal specialized schooling, and an exam, they become "journeyman". After usuallly around 3-5 years working as journeyman, they then can go on to become "Master Craftsman" for which they usually have to produce their "Masterpiece" which historically had to be accepted by other Masters. Only then would they be allowed to join the guild, at least back in the day, not sure if the guilds are still like that nowadays.

Today, although there are changes and exceptions, to become a Master the Journeymen usually have to go to get extra schooling (theoretical, practical, also economics of running a business as well as teaching methods) to become Master craftsman. And I think you have to be or employ a Master to run your own craftsmanbusiness and teach apprenticeships, the rules are quite strict. 

So I think the dude who was an apprentice in the 3 of Pents (I can never see "cooperation" in that card, it's my scrutiny card really) is getting ready for his Masterpiece to become the Master Craftsman.

[Guest]

On 8/21/2021 at 7:06 PM, katrinka said:

Waite seems to be saying it's a card of work and craftsmanship.

 

Yes. For me, it refers to business and career in general.  It has never cropped up for an apprenticeship or even specifically for career changes.  Neither has the Three.
 

The apprenticeship idea does seem to come from that cursory comment.  If you review some of the late 1970/80s literature, you start to see mentions of a hobby or new skill that leads to a new career or some success.  But that is itself is quite a leap. 

 

[Guest]

On 8/21/2021 at 7:49 PM, katrinka said:

It can be defeat, realizing your limitations. In the RWS it's a two sided card. I like to read the cards in the left as the losing side and the cards on the right as winning, but that's just me. There's a storm on the way - look at those clouds - so there might be another round in the future.

Marcus Katz and Tali Goodwin suggested that the figures were Dare and Do, Catch and Kill, and Fear and Fly. But I cannot see it.

 

On 8/22/2021 at 12:23 AM, fire cat pickles said:

We have an apprentice card—the 3 of Pentacles,  "Works". It's noisy, it's got people telling other people what to do. It's  a busy card. And it lays the groundwork for things to come. It's all right there...

I’ve also found that the Three of Pentacles comes up a lot for people following in a parent or other relatives’ profession.
 

But Waite does say skilled labour for the Three. I’ve also read it also as extra duties based on good performance.  

[JudyReadsCards]

21 minutes ago, mxlavender said:

Marcus Katz and Tali Goodwin suggested that the figures were Dare and Do, Catch and Kill, and Fear and Fly. But I cannot see it.

 

I can't see a LOT of what they say.

Sorry, didn't want to miss an opportunity to get the knife in. 😏  Carry on...

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, JudyReadsCards said:

 

I can't see a LOT of what they say.

Sorry, didn't want to miss an opportunity to get the knife in. 😏  Carry on...

Lol. A natural compulsion. What did you make of the alchemist Seven of Cups?  

 

Quite a few cartomantes see the card as being choices, options and ambitions.  Although Waite refers to imagination the inference is more delusion.  I’ve found the card quite negative indicating false assurances, castles in the sky and scattered resources. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Guest

[JudyReadsCards]

1 hour ago, mxlavender said:

Lol. A natural compulsion. What did you make of the alchemist Seven of Cups?  

 

You can't avoid seeing references here and there to some of his "insights" (an alchemist 7 of Cups sounds typical) but I have not read the book. I made it a couple of chapters into his affront to Lenormand and witnessed his antics on social media, and he's been a hard pass ever since.

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, mxlavender said:

I’ve also found that the Three of Pentacles comes up a lot for people following in a parent or other relatives’ profession.
 

But Waite does say skilled labour for the Three. I’ve also read it also as extra duties based on good performance.  

Yes. I suspect the apprenticeship idea for that one comes from the fact that people seem to be inspecting his work. But if you're paying someone, you're going to do that regardless. The card can go either way on that. The 8 is not so flexible.

My old litmus test, the Thoth, doesn't alter that. The 3 is simply "Works." 😁
 

1 hour ago, JudyReadsCards said:

I can't see a LOT of what they say.

Sorry, didn't want to miss an opportunity to get the knife in. 😏  Carry on...

 

Beat me to it.
 

1 hour ago, mxlavender said:

Lol. A natural compulsion. What did you make of the alchemist Seven of Cups?  

 

I...what...NO. Just no.

So the guy is blending his delusions in a retort now? Sounds about right for them.

 

13 minutes ago, JudyReadsCards said:

I made it a couple of chapters into his affront to Lenormand and witnessed his antics on social media, and he's been a hard pass ever since.

 

To paraphrase:
"Mice are teamwork!"
"Everybody go to amazon and give me a five star review!"

Etc.

I did read the Pamela Colman Smith book. It has a lot of issues, but it's more bearable since a biography does not require the authors to know how to read cards.

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, JudyReadsCards said:

You can't avoid seeing references here and there to some of his "insights" (an alchemist 7 of Cups sounds typical) but I have not read the book. I made it a couple of chapters into his affront to Lenormand and witnessed his antics on social media, and he's been a hard pass ever since.

Mr. Katz and Ms. Goodwin identify “the fantastic spirit” as appearing in an earlier work of Waite: Pictorial Symbols of Alchemy.  Consequently, the believe the seven chalices refer the transformative stages of alchemy, calcination, dissolution, and so on.

 

It is an interesting idea but not one to which I subscribe. Sometimes an image is an image. Here it is castles in the sky, imho.

30 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Yes. I suspect the apprenticeship idea for that one comes from the fact that people seem to be inspecting his work. But if you're paying someone, you're going to do that regardless. The card can go either way on that. The 8 is not so flexible.

My old litmus test, the Thoth, doesn't alter that. The 3 is simply "Works." 😁

Yes. Over time, I have noticed that we like to create narratives (think the Fool’s Journey). The apprentice of the three becomes the master on the eight, et cetera. 

These can help learn but they can cause real issues when we try to carry it over to the reading. 

 

35 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I...what...NO. Just no.

So the guy is blending his delusions in a retort now? Sounds about right for them.

It is in his book Secrets of the Waite-Smith. Not the best but I’ve read much worse.
 

 

[katrinka]

21 minutes ago, mxlavender said:

It is in his book Secrets of the Waite-Smith. Not the best but I’ve read much worse.

That's the one I actually managed to finish without giving up in disgust. But I don't remember that bit. I must have repressed it, lol.

[katrinka]

27 minutes ago, mxlavender said:

Over time, I have noticed that we like to create narratives (think the Fool’s Journey). The apprentice of the three becomes the master on the eight, et cetera. 

These can help learn but they can cause real issues when we try to carry it over to the reading. 

 

Exactly.
I do see a kind of loose number progression. But when you make it a narrative, it all falls apart.
That is NOT the same person on all those cards.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, katrinka said:

That's the one I actually managed to finish without giving up in disgust. But I don't remember that bit. I must have repressed it, lol.

Indeed. To be fair, Mr. Katz and Ms. Goodwin suggest rather than insist. But it is hard to see.  Of their collaborations I prefer Abiding In the Sanctuary. It has nice pictures (the Trinick-Waite). Really nice pictures.  The pictures were really nice…

 

22 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Exactly.
I do see a kind of loose number progression. But when you make it a narrative, it all falls apart.
That is NOT the same person on all those cards.

 

These days, I am using the Wirth and Smith-Waite more or less exclusively.  Originally, I thought I could see some number progression and even the decans. But now I am not sure.
 

Between basic cartomancy, and the Pictorial Key, I’ve found a happy medium.  But I am strange… I prefer the Original (I love the University and Blushing Fool) but the Belgian printed Original Rider just works for me.  

 

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, mxlavender said:

Indeed. To be fair, Mr. Katz and Ms. Goodwin suggest rather than insist. But it is hard to see.  Of their collaborations I prefer Abiding In the Sanctuary. It has nice pictures (the Trinick-Waite). Really nice pictures.  The pictures were really nice…

 

The Trinick-Waite is arguably the prettiest Tarot ever produced. And I would LOVE a copy of the actual deck.
Someday it may be available. If that happens, I'd like to be able to use it without being reminded of a Katz-Goodwin book.
 

2 hours ago, mxlavender said:

These days, I am using the Wirth and Smith-Waite more or less exclusively.  Originally, I thought I could see some number progression and even the decans. But now I am not sure.

 

It's a bit blurry, mostly due to Waite's fudging, I think.
I'm not sure at all that PCS was given entirely free rein with the Minors. Some of the changes in emphasis and inflection seem like pure Waite. I might be imagining it, but there seems to be a certain air of pomposity sometimes.
 

2 hours ago, mxlavender said:

Between basic cartomancy, and the Pictorial Key, I’ve found a happy medium.  But I am strange… I prefer the Original (I love the University and Blushing Fool) but the Belgian printed Original Rider just works for me. 

 

I have the pocket version. I'm too lazy ATM to check and see where it was printed. I doubt if it was Belgium, it's nice but it doesn't seem that good.
But I like my RWS decks a bit loud. University or Albano. 😁

 

I've read that the images were originally just linework and it was the publisher who colored them. That's kind of boggling when I think about it.

Edited August 26, 2021 by katrinka

[Guest]

22 hours ago, katrinka said:

The Trinick-Waite is arguably the prettiest Tarot ever produced. And I would LOVE a copy of the actual deck.
Someday it may be available. If that happens, I'd like to be able to use it without being reminded of a Katz-Goodwin book.

It is stunning. I would love to see it in print, one day.  
 

22 hours ago, katrinka said:

It's a bit blurry, mostly due to Waite's fudging, I think.
I'm not sure at all that PCS was given entirely free rein with the Minors. Some of the changes in emphasis and inflection seem like pure Waite. I might be imagining it, but there seems to be a certain air of pomposity sometimes.

  
Yes.  Over time, I have been told that Waite had no interest in the spot-cards.  The presence of figures such as Terry, Irving and so on are cited as proof. But I’m not too sure that is proof she had free reign. Could that not just be artistic license?  

 

22 hours ago, katrinka said:

I have the pocket version. I'm too lazy ATM to check and see where it was printed. I doubt if it was Belgium, it's nice but it doesn't seem that good.
But I like my RWS decks a bit loud. University or Albano. 😁

 

I've read that the images were originally just linework and it was the publisher who colored them. That's kind of boggling when I think about it.

 

I never knew a pocket version of the Original Rider Waite Tarot Deck.  Quite a few people dislike it — the greenish hues, the “measles.” Apparently, the Italian print run was quite awful.  The new Chinese run is darker but nice. But I like the Belgian.  For some reason, it just does it for me. The version I use was a bequest and the numbers on the Strength and Justice were doctored lol. I was able to get a second copy. 
 

I love both the University and Albano.  The blushing Fool is charming, but my edition is water damaged and cannot shuffle easily.  

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, mxlavender said:

Yes.  Over time, I have been told that Waite had no interest in the spot-cards.  The presence of figures such as Terry, Irving and so on are cited as proof. But I’m not too sure that is proof she had free reign. Could that not just be artistic license?  

 

It absolutely could.
And I have to ask myself if an ego like Waite's would hand the decision-making over to a woman for almost 3/4ths of a deck that would bear his name, but not hers.
A tiny, arty woman, a "cute little thing", a "Pixie.". Almost like a Cyndi Lauper type, but with no clout. He probably tried to run all over her. Guys like that tend to micromanage. That's my experience, anyway. And I'm 5'8", don't suffer fools gladly, and live in a different time.
 

2 hours ago, mxlavender said:

I never knew a pocket version of the Original Rider Waite Tarot Deck

 

My mistake, I was thinking of the Centennial.
 

2 hours ago, mxlavender said:

Quite a few people dislike it — the greenish hues, the “measles.” Apparently, the Italian print run was quite awful.  The new Chinese run is darker but nice. But I like the Belgian.  For some reason, it just does it for me. The version I use was a bequest and the numbers on the Strength and Justice were doctored lol. I was able to get a second copy. 

 

I do have it. The measels don't bother me. And I LOVE the green. It was the reason I bought it to begin with!
It's the linework that bugs me. Pam B, IIRC. It changes the facial expressions from what I'm used to and that bugs me. Just a personal quirk.

 

2 hours ago, mxlavender said:

I love both the University and Albano.  The blushing Fool is charming, but my edition is water damaged and cannot shuffle easily.  

It sounds like it's still a wonderful deck to have!

Edited August 27, 2021 by katrinka

[gregory]

2 hours ago, mxlavender said:

I never knew a pocket version of the Original Rider Waite Tarot Deck.  Quite a few people dislike it — the greenish hues, the “measles.” Apparently, the Italian print run was quite awful.  The new Chinese run is darker but nice. But I like the Belgian.  For some reason, it just does it for me. The version I use was a bequest and the numbers on the Strength and Justice were doctored lol. I was able to get a second copy. 

 

When you say the original - do you mean the Waddington/Rider one ? As in Blue Box ? There's the Traveller's version, which I have. It was printed in the UK.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

It absolutely could.
And I have to ask myself if an ego like Waite's would hand the decision-making over to a woman for almost 3/4ths of a deck that would bear his name, but not hers.
A tiny, arty woman, a "cute little thing", a "Pixie.". Almost like a Cyndi Lauper type, but with no clout. He probably tried to run all over her. Guys like that tend to micromanage. That's my experience, anyway. And I'm 5'8", don't suffer fools gladly, and live in a different time.

Yes. Very much so.  From my understanding, the Smith-Waite Tarot (as his “corrected” deck) was a long cherished idea for Waite. Would one hand over 40 spot cards just because the are deemed unimportant. I cannot see it.  Certainly, Pamela made her contribution.  That contribution cannot be underestimated. But we have to accept the bombastic overtones of her mentor.  He must have been impressed with her.  There were others he could have hired.  
 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

I do have it. The measels don't bother me. And I LOVE the green. It was the reason I bought it to begin with!
It's the linework that bugs me. Pam B, IIRC. It changes the facial expressions from what I'm used to and that bugs me. Just a personal quirk.

I get confused with the A, B, C.  It does change the faces and details — Eve has her dentures out and the Sun is quite different. But I find it charming.

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

It sounds like it's still a wonderful deck to have!

It is a charming deck.  No US Games copyright. The cards feel different, too. 
 

35 minutes ago, gregory said:

When you say the original - do you mean the Waddington/Rider one ? As in Blue Box ? There's the Traveller's version, which I have. It was printed in the UK.

No.  I had the Traveller’s but knew someone who wanted it. I have the Blushing Fool/Waddington blue box deck. It has the World figure on the cover with the yellow-greenish hue skin.

 

The Original I have is a 1993 deck. It came in a box with Temperance on the cover and the rose and lilies back.  Why it is called Original is beyond me lol. But I use it and really like it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

My mistake, I was thinking of the Centennial.

I have the tin version. I keep it at work (hoping it is still there). But I find the faux aging grating. It looks so artificial. 

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, mxlavender said:

I get confused with the A, B, C.  It does change the faces and details — Eve has her dentures out and the Sun is quite different. But I find it charming.

 

LOL, yes, And that chin on Eve - like Madame from The Muppets, or Dudley Do-Right. I do get a kick out of that one. 😁
 

1 hour ago, mxlavender said:

I have the tin version. I keep it at work (hoping it is still there). But I find the faux aging grating. It looks so artificial.

It really does. You'd think USG would have the resources to do a better job. It was a special commemorative deck, too. They should have gone all out.

Pocket RWS decks are handy, though.

[Strength8]

On 8/21/2021 at 1:49 PM, katrinka said:

 

Oddly, that one seems to get misread a lot less badly than the 8P, even though the image is a lot more ambiguous:

 

It's one that Waite put a little blind on, I think. A good litmus test for Golden Dawn decks is the Thoth, and it's Defeat in that one, but in the RWS image, the focus is shifted to the winner. Still, most people read it as defeat. Go figure!

 

People tend to talk about unfairness with this one. The guy is smirking, so he's not very classy or sportsmanly, but he just fought off two guys - how is he unfair? There may be more - there's five swords on the card - but we don't see them or know whose side they were on. I don't read it as unfairness.

It can be defeat, realizing your limitations. In the RWS it's a two sided card. I like to read the cards in the left as the losing side and the cards on the right as winning, but that's just me. There's a storm on the way - look at those clouds - so there might be another round in the future.

 

 

That too.
There is MUCH to be said for logic in cartomancy! 🙂

Hi, newbie here and this card makes me nervous (may be because of that smirk). How would you read the reversal of 5 of swords? Thank you