Question about traditions

[Guest]

So I saw Lisas vid here: 

Is she saying that Andy and Caitlins distance methods is not the pure traditional method of distance? 
Can someone please explain this to me. What do you think about it?

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Guest

[katrinka]

Is that the sock puppet lady?

She's not to be taken seriously.

[Marina]

By traditions, do you mean "schools" of Lenormand reading (like French, German etc.) Or is it something else?

 

Sorry, I'm only now learning about the different ways of reading Lenormand, hence the question.

[selena]

Lisa is referring to the fact that Caitlin and Andy incorporate additional techniques such counting, reflection, knighting, and so on. 
 

However, Lisa and Bjorn both incorporate techniques which could be classified as “deviations”. There is no gang of misery referred to in the old instructions.  No clusters.  The original example reading judges everything (left and right) from the perspective of the Woman and Man cards.

 

The idea of one true method of distance is nonsensical because folk arts don’t work like that. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by selena

[WizardintheWoods]

Thank you @selena for finding more appropriate words to address this subject then I was able to gather. @katrinka is correct, many of us don’t take the Sock Puppet Lady with even a bit of seriousness. If you do okay, you do you, as they say. 
 

Selena has the perfect response IMHO, in her last line 

3 hours ago, selena said:

The idea of one true method of distance is nonsensical because folk arts don’t work like that.

[katrinka]

Exactly what Selena said.
And "traditional" is simply something that has been in use for generations. Houses are a Lenormand adaptation of the Master Method, something that was described in Fortune Telling by Cards in 1915 and L’oracle parfait, ou Le passe temps des dames in 1875. Time frame divisions, mirroring, and counting also appear in similarly old books on cartomancy, something she apparently isn't aware of. She seems to assume that everyone in Continental Europe stuck strictly to the PL Sheet and never incorporated the popular techniques of the day. 

She has admitted herself that she has next to no experience in Lenormand. There's a thread about that here:

 

So, with no research or experience, she's attempting to discredit authors who were reading and researching Lenormand for many years before she was even aware that it existed.

 

And that was an abysmally bad reading. She appears to be completely unfamiliar with the story. Scarlett only married Rhett for his money. There was no mention of Scarlett's well-known continued pursuit of Ashley Wilkes, a major factor that drove a wedge in the marriage. By the time Rhett was once again openly visiting Belle Watley's place, there was no illusion of a marriage to speak of. The Fox was far from Scarlett's card but touching Rhett's: "The Fox, if near, is a sign to mistrust persons with whom you are connected, because some of them try to deceive you; if distant, no danger is to be apprehended." The Snake "is a sign of misfortune, the extent of which depends upon the greater or smaller distance from the Person; it is followed invariably by deceit, infidelity and sorrow." Remember the death of their daughter? And the Snake is also touching Rhett's card but distant from Scarlett's. If you follow the PL Sheet, those warnings were for Rhett.
 

So she wasn't even following the original Distance instructions at all. The woman is an utter fake.

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by katrinka

[Guest]

Interesting, thank you! There is a lot of info floating around. And as a beginner, it is hard to navigate. The only thing I know I want to do, if it is possible, is to "stay true" to old traditions and learnings. If you know what I mean. Could you all in here give some tips on what NOT to listen to? What do you swear by? 

[Guest]

Does anyone have the PL sheet? I would like to look at it 🙂

[Sadewa]

23 minutes ago, Smilla said:

Interesting, thank you! There is a lot of info floating around. And as a beginner, it is hard to navigate. The only thing I know I want to do, if it is possible, is to "stay true" to old traditions and learnings. If you know what I mean. Could you all in here give some tips on what NOT to listen to? What do you swear by? 

 

5 minutes ago, Smilla said:

Does anyone have the PL sheet? I would like to look at it 🙂

If I recall correctly, you once posted a question regarding Andy's book? Andy's book is a perfect source for learning, and there's a PL sheet translated in the appendix, too. You do need to be patient reading his work and be prepared to refer to it frequently during your first stages of learning, though. He tries to offer insight into how and why the cards can be interpreted in various ways (aka keywords) rather than bluntly throw the keywords at the learners, which, of course, is beneficial for the reader in the long term, but can take the reader a bit more time and effort to really consume that information. (It's worth it, though. That book is practically gold.) 

 

On the side note... You do seem to be searching for a lot of resources. Now I don't mean to patronize you or to act like some sort of lenormand guru, and it's absolutely your own free choice to decide how to learn and what to read. However, speaking from my own learning experience in the past 3 years, I would highly recommend those interested in lenormand to stick to one legit source first, and don't rush to branch out their reading list before they can do fluent readings based on that source. I'm not against personal evolution as a reader, as I myself have changed due to influences from different authors. But I have found, to my own chagrin, that rushing to refer to a plethora of authors in the beginning stage has muddled my readings.

 

(BTW Andy does adhere to the old tradition of lenormand if there is anything that can be crowned that title. The PL sheet is, undoubtedly, fundamentally significant in today's lenormand interpretations, but you'll soon discover that the original instructions are quite lean, which is far from enough to make actual detailed readings work. So it's inevitable that readers add personal insights based on observation and common logic regarding the symbol into their interpretations. Andy does it, Rana does it, Catlin does it, Treppner does it, Bjorn does it, and that Lisa lady does it as well. 

 

If you see the distance method as what you want to achieve by studying "old teachings", I'd say that Andy's book is the only book you will need. It is undoubtedly traditional and reliable.)

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Sadewa said:

 

If I recall correctly, you once posted a question regarding Andy's book? Andy's book is a perfect source for learning, and there's a PL sheet translated in the appendix, too. You do need to be patient reading his work and be prepared to refer to it frequently during your first stages of learning, though. He tries to offer insight into how and why the cards can be interpreted in various ways (aka keywords) rather than bluntly throw the keywords at the learners, which, of course, is beneficial for the reader in the long term, but can take the reader a bit more time and effort to really consume that information. (It's worth it, though. That book is practically gold.) 

 

On the side note... You do seem to be searching for a lot of resources. Now I don't mean to patronize you or to act like some sort of lenormand guru, and it's absolutely your own free choice to decide how to learn and what to read. However, speaking from my own learning experience in the past 3 years, I would highly recommend those interested in lenormand to stick to one legit source first, and don't rush to branch out their reading list before they can do fluent readings based on that source. I'm not against personal evolution as a reader, as I myself have changed due to influences from different authors. But I have found, to my own chagrin, that rushing to refer to a plethora of authors in the beginning stage has muddled my readings.

 

(BTW Andy does adhere to the old tradition of lenormand if there is anything that can be crowned that title. The PL sheet is, undoubtedly, fundamentally significant in today's lenormand interpretations, but you'll soon discover that the original instructions are quite lean, which is far from enough to make actual detailed readings work. So it's inevitable that readers add personal insights based on observation and common logic regarding the symbol into their interpretations. Andy does it, Rana does it, Catlin does it, Treppner does it, Bjorn does it, and that Lisa lady does it as well. 

 

If you see the distance method as what you want to achieve by studying "old teachings", I'd say that Andy's book is the only book you will need. It is undoubtedly traditional and reliable.)

Thank you! Yes, I am reading Andy's book. But, I have some problems focusing for a longer time (mental health issues) and learning. I thought I could make it easier for me to learn by using youtube instead. That's how I landed on Lisa's vid. 

[bastetly]

Hi Smilia:  This came from my bookmarks.  It's in a larger print format and uses a modern deck for the illustration.  Not sure where I got it.  Andy B maybe?

 

Philippe LeNormand Sheet

 

https://secureservercdn.net/160.153.137.163/a55.c7a.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/LeNormand-English-LWB.pdf

Edited September 30, 2021 by bastetly

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, bastetly said:

Hi Smilia:  This came from my bookmarks.  It's in a larger print format and uses a modern deck for the illustration.  Not sure where I got it.  Andy B maybe?

 

https://secureservercdn.net/160.153.137.163/a55.c7a.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/LeNormand-English-LWB.pdf

Thank you kindly!

[katrinka]

I've only seen two readers on youtube that I can recommend for learning Lenormand. One is Hexe Claire.
She does include a video on reversals, but bear in mind that she states it's only an experiment and not an accepted part of the reading tradition. Her other videos are quite solid and beginner-friendly.
 

Malkiel Rouven Dietrich still has quite a few english videos up and he's another reader I respect. Here are the very basic ones:
 

And here are some Grand Tableau videos:
 

 

For visual learners who do best starting out with videos, these are the way to go. Get a solid foundation and then you'll find the books much easier,

Edited September 30, 2021 by katrinka

[Guest]

Thank you @katrinka

[WizardintheWoods]

I have to agree Hexe Claire is a good video source of info, the easier of the two to follow, then work up to Malkiel. That was the order I did them at least and it worked for me. 
 

Sometimes with focus issues it works to concentrate on just one chapter over and over again,- in the Lenormand case 2 cards at a time and get those down pat for their basic essence. I also choose to work on one card I found easier to understand and one I found tough to understand, it created a balance and always let me feel I was making progress.  The key, no pun intended, was to understand it is no race to learn this, those who are truly wanting to learn the Lenormand reading system understand you commit to the long haul not a short sprint AND you will always learn something new no matter how long you are reading the cards. 
 

Get yourself a good notebook, doesn’t have to be expensive, and have sections for your notes on each card and each of the various spreads you learn and refer to it often. Also a separate note book to record ALL your readings and then reviewing those periodically can help immensely in your learning. 

End to close my comment, stick to one source and learn it. You will hear many of us say follow Andy Boroveshengra’s book, put the rest on a shelf. Yes you will go back to those books down the road.  One day, yep a while from now, you will appreciate all he wrote for us and what he didn’t, to allow us to learn on our own. I added those video’s at the start due to your focus issue, if it hadn’t been for that I would have said just Andy’s book. 

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, WizardintheWoods said:

The key, no pun intended, was to understand it is no race to learn this, those who are truly wanting to learn the Lenormand reading system understand you commit to the long haul not a short sprint AND you will always learn something new no matter how long you are reading the cards.

 

YES. And that brings up this video from the Hexe Claire playlist that I think is particularly important:
 

 

She says it takes years to learn. And even though she made this video in 2015, long before Sock Puppet Lady came on the scene, she's talking about people just like that when she says that nobody just "picks up the cards and they speak" and Lenormand cannot be learned in a weekend or whatever. People who claim to know the cards well who have not put in the necessary time and work are just "trying to make themselves look bigger and others look smaller."

I remember Andy saying years ago that you're learning a language and it can take 5-7 years to become fluent. People got very upset by that and he caught a lot of flak. But it's true and they're both saying the same thing. It's not just learning 36 meanings or what a Grand Tableau is. You have to let the cards truly sink in and become part of your thinking so that you can apply them to various contexts, and that takes time. And even then, there is always more to learn.

So give yourself that time. Study, practice, and don't rush it. It comes in time.

[gregory]

I couldn't agree more. I was idly (kinda - I am lazy) trying to "get" Lenormand from several books (at least I do NOT try to learn from youtube - or any videos !)

 

I finally got Andy's book about 4 months ago. I am nowhere yet - but at least it is slightly beginning to make sense. And when I'm stuck I ask katrinka - because she - whatever she says - is rock solid.