Trying to be a decent person

[katrinka]

I think that's vital to spirituality. And I don't think it gets the attention it should.
Today was pretty mundane. I walked to a salon and got a haircut, all that bad COVID chopping in front and too-long-for-my-age stuff is finally gone. I don't have to put my hair up at work anymore, I'm back to my Bette Davis All About Eve/Lauren Bacall/Rita Hayworth long bob hair. I don't LOOK like them, but I can once again make my hair do all those things. I'll settle for that. 😄

I went to a couple of stores after that. And it's still hot here, so I finally stopped at a convenience store where I've always seen people hanging out front and called an Uber. There is shade there, and it seemed like a good place to wait 20-30 minutes.

There was a man in a wheelchair out front. He had four backpacks on the sidewalk nearby. He warned me that the people in the store could have me jailed for loitering and pointed out a sign that said so. He said the only reason they had to tolerate him was his wheelchair. I went inside, bought a soda, and told the clerk that I was waiting for an Uber and would be gone in about 20 minutes. The clerk OK'd that.

I probably would have been OK sitting out there for 20 minutes anyway. I look employed, but in Texas you never can tell. Maybe that man was playing savior. But maybe I would have been jailed. A store owner is NOT more trustworthy than a homeless guy.

I went back outside and he told me his tales of woe. I don't know how much of that was true and how much was hustle. But it doesn't matter. I gave him the $7 cash I had on me and he told me he would go to the Sonic across the street and get food. But I don't have those expectations.

AND THAT IS THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE HERE. It DOES NOT MATTER what the homeless do with the money we give them. They don't HAVE to buy food. Maybe sleeping on pavement is EASIER with a bottle of cheap wine or vodka in your belly. Maybe drug withdrawals are WORSE than being hungry. Maybe everybody can't just pull themselves up by their damn bootstraps, maybe some people are not that strong, maybe you can't just "get a job" without ID - or clean clothes, or a shower - anyway.

 

And maybe - just maybe - they don't "LIKE living like that.". OK, that last was sarcasm, But I've heard a lot of people actually say that since the 80's.

He did hint around like he needed a place to clean up. And I'm not a martyr or a saint, I didn't open my home to him. I don't class myself as "spiritual".

I am a woman. A woman "of a certain vintage" who is not about to be taken advantage of, ripped off, etc. And yeah, he'd have done that, I'm sure. That's the street, those are "the rules."

But he is also a human. A human deserving of not having to live in the damn streets.
And I won't go into hostile architecture or cuts in social services here. We do have a "no politics" rule. You can google all of that. But suffice to say that paying taxes should benefit the people when needed, not billionaires. I pay in, when I need help I should be able to get it. Same for you. Same for the guy in the wheelchair in front of the store. We should not have to feel like it's on us to take people in if we are paying taxes.

We are paying in for nothing. There is no real help for people in need. The roads are all potholes. We have no public transportation here.

 

What if the fire department was privatized? "Oh, your house is on fire? Do you have insurance? Can you pay out of pocket?" And if you don't, it spreads....but maybe those people in those OTHER houses can afford to pay. Do you see what's wrong here?

 

The wealth gap in the US is surreal. This will not end well. Things are going to get very, very difficult. And that's not even taking things like climate change into account, which will be devastating.

 

I do agree with this:

 

There is one quote from Thích Nhất Hạnh that sticks with me: “The wave does not need to die to become water. She is already water.”

 

All of us. One big water. We come out of it, discover our toes and fingers, and someday, well...we go back.
Beyond that, I don't know.

I know I explained it badly, and it's not so woo, fun, or mystic. But that's my spirituality.
Comments welcome.

 

 

[Onibaba]

8 hours ago, katrinka said:

I

He did hint around like he needed a place to clean up. And I'm not a martyr or a saint, I didn't open my home to him. I don't class myself as "spiritual".

 

 

I think I’ve figured out your nightmare from the other thread you posted. 

[Raggydoll]

Good stuff @katrinka. I get what you mean. I especially liked the quote on how to make friends 😁 This is important. If people aren’t going to be reliable or helpful in difficult times, then that is a problem. I think that I am probably a fairly good friend in this regard. Im very loyal; I can usually come up with practical and creative strategies in times of chaos; I have basic medical skills, and I do magic. Plus I always dance like no one is watching 😁 Wanna be friends ? 😊

[devin]

Y'know, much of your post is very Protestant in its approach to lived spirituality: the still, small voice of personal conscience and good acts in the world.

 

I grew up surrounded by working/middle-class WASPS and Pentecostal Zulus. In a setting like that, the good spirituality to be found amongst the sea of religious craziness always focused on a combination of personal conscience and good works. Ipso facto, it's culturally embedded in my DNA to think of a healthy spirituality as looking like that. 

 

You grew up in Texas, right? Maybe your cultural surroundings had a similar effect.

 

I also agree with you 100% on homeless people. If I lived rough, I'd want to be off my head most of the time. What is heart breaking, though, is to see the young guys slip further and further into heavy drugs and all the nastiness that comes after that. Life is sad.

 

As for the last bit, okay, I've said before I'm more of a Sky-Daddy kind of guy, but I always liked what Kurt Vonnegut said (or maybe what he reported his son as having said?): "We are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is."

 

EDIT: OF course, I'm not saying that Protestants are the only religious folk that do good works, but they do have a heavier focus on personal conscience than many religions.

Edited October 6, 2021 by devin

[reall]

it's surprising how much in common different people & countries across the world have!x,x

I also think my Day is Ok when I'm happy with my flapper hair!^^ (& it gets more challenging as I got older & my hair decide to walk away from me!x,x lol)

used to think my country only one with road trap issue we have joke *bring shuffle if you are going to city so if you find piece of asphalt without hole to dig one!:D lol

also poor people beggin for help in public places or collecting money on tv for all sort of issues including crazy medical bills is common I wonder wtf are our own hospitals & all those medic & pharmacy schools working?x,x why can't they produce medicine & treat people instead send them overboard to this crazy 1milion quest?x,x

my father was gentle heart he would always give as much as he had to anyone who asked!:)

btw usually that sort of activity is actually punishable by law as there Are institution to look for help shelters & shower & change of clothes as well as hot meal even my city have 1of those & even if people are vary of them imo it can't be much worse than street?:)

 

[devin]

Don't get me started on potholes. The ones round my parts are like tank traps!

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by devin

[joy]

Agree 100% with your post @katrinka. Countless times I have been told to not give anything to such and such person as they would just buy drugs or alcohol. It is none of my business and we do not know what happened with that person but like you said at the end of the day they are still humans! I used to volunteer in a day-shelter and some of those people were the most amazing artists, story tellers and kindest people I met. They would recognize me when I had a different haircut and color while others would just pass by....

I live in a very small place and we have started to form groups just in case the food chains do start to get worse. Lots of us started planting.... and yes the Governments have failed all of us, all over the world. Our Gov got millions of Aid for the C crisis and nobody knows where the money is, for sure not reached the people who are suffering... nor have the streets been fixed nor the schools been improved.... so we do have a feeling we know where the money is...

In trying times one will know who the real friends are ❤️

[Raggydoll]

28 minutes ago, joy said:

In trying times one will know who the real friends are ❤️

So true!

 

[gregory]

1 hour ago, joy said:

Agree 100% with your post @katrinka. Countless times I have been told to not give anything to such and such person as they would just buy drugs or alcohol. It is none of my business and we do not know what happened with that person but like you said at the end of the day they are still humans! I used to volunteer in a day-shelter and some of those people were the most amazing artists, story tellers and kindest people I met. They would recognize me when I had a different haircut and color while others would just pass by....

I live in a very small place and we have started to form groups just in case the food chains do start to get worse. Lots of us started planting.... and yes the Governments have failed all of us, all over the world. Our Gov got millions of Aid for the C crisis and nobody knows where the money is, for sure not reached the people who are suffering... nor have the streets been fixed nor the schools been improved.... so we do have a feeling we know where the money is...

In trying times one will know who the real friends are ❤️

 

Agree with that. especially about the true friends.

 

I was once walking back to my car in FOUL wet weather, and I had a mug of takeout hot chocolate in my hand. I was SO looking forward to getting in the car and drinking it - and there was this wet, sad looking guy on the ground, leaning against a wall. He wasn't asking for anything but - my heart broke for him and I gave him the mug. He thanked me and I walked on... and when I looked back well, I'd expected to see him drinking it. Instead he was using it to warm himself. Awful, Another time I went and bought coffee and doughnuts for a homeless guy I'd seen by the station - and he actually said thanks, it was tough when people gave him money as he'd lose his place to sleep while he went to spend it. I took to dropping by his "slot" whenever I was near the station after that ! The things these people have to put up with at the hands of society - and millionaire politicians just try to "get them off our streets,"

[joy]

38 minutes ago, gregory said:

 

Agree with that. especially about the true friends.

 

I was once walking back to my car in FOUL wet weather, and I had a mug of takeout hot chocolate in my hand. I was SO looking forward to getting in the car and drinking it - and there was this wet, sad looking guy on the ground, leaning against a wall. He wasn't asking for anything but - my heart broke for him and I gave him the mug. He thanked me and I walked on... and when I looked back well, I'd expected to see him drinking it. Instead he was using it to warm himself. Awful, Another time I went and bought coffee and doughnuts for a homeless guy I'd seen by the station - and he actually said thanks, it was tough when people gave him money as he'd lose his place to sleep while he went to spend it. I took to dropping by his "slot" whenever I was near the station after that ! The things these people have to put up with at the hands of society - and millionaire politicians just try to "get them off our streets,"

 

Exactly! And some people call them lazy but hey the stand in places for hours, every day, rain or shine! And I am always grateful that I and all my family members and friends have a roof over their heads, one really never knows.....

[RosieBlack]

I agree that spirituality and being a decent person go hand in hand. For me, this doesn't just stop with humans though, it extends to every being on the planet and the Earth itself. I personally can't understand how people can be kind to one species and not to another. I don't think any species is above another or more deserving of life. It may be a contentious subject, but anything less doesn't make sense to me.

[Onibaba]

1 minute ago, TheThumbPuppy said:

 

Not necessarily.

 

It depends on your definitions of "decent person" and "spirituality".

[RosieBlack]

10 minutes ago, TheThumbPuppy said:

 

Not necessarily.

 

It depends on your definitions of "decent person" and "spirituality".

 

🤔 I don't think the definitions would vary greatly between people or in general. In general, spirituality is about a belief in something greater than us out there, a higher power, a reason we're all here and I think that ties very well into being a decent person which I think obviously revolves around kindness in general. But anyway, all I said was that I agreed with the principle. 

[malvina]

41 minutes ago, RosieBlack said:

I don't think the definitions would vary greatly between people or in general. In general, spirituality is about a belief in something greater than us out there, a higher power, a reason we're all here and I think that ties very well into being a decent person which I think obviously revolves around kindness in general.

Well, if one believes in spirits, ghosts, fae folk, etc., it doesn’t mean they also believe all those things are greater or higher, just different. And even believing in a higher power doesn’t equal the belief in life purpose. Life purpose or destiny also doesn’t have to be tied to bringing goodness into this world. So I think your approach isn’t universal. I personally wouldn’t equate decency and kindness, and perhaps what you would deem merely decent, I would call an extra step or going above and beyond. It’s all personal.

[Raggydoll]

2 minutes ago, malvina said:

Well, if one believes in spirits, ghosts, fae folk, etc., it doesn’t mean they also believe all those things are greater or higher, just different. And even believing in a higher power doesn’t equal the belief in life purpose. Life purpose or destiny also doesn’t have to be tied to bringing goodness into this world.

So true. I particularly relate to the part where beings are described as different and not higher or greater. 

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

If people aren’t going to be reliable or helpful in difficult times, then that is a problem.

 

YES. It's not about stockpiling weapons, even though we may need to defend ourselves and others at some point.
I've read that the worst punishment that the Native Americans used was banishment. And that was reserved for the few who did unimaginably evil things.
They didn't get death, or torture. They got banished. Turned out into the world alone.
They needed everybody. Everybody had something vital to contribute. And the worst penalty was to be cut off from the people.
 

5 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I think that I am probably a fairly good friend in this regard. Im very loyal; I can usually come up with practical and creative strategies in times of chaos; I have basic medical skills, and I do magic. Plus I always dance like no one is watching 😁 Wanna be friends ?

 

Sure! 😁 And yes: you're a very good person to know.

BTW, that's the first time I ever posted a meme with that slogan. I don't know how these slogans catch on, since most don't seem to like them.
There's a photo of a casket going around facebook that has "Lived, Laughed, Loved" printed inside the lid. People are making comments like "Cremate me and flush me down the toilet." 🤣

 

4 hours ago, devin said:

Y'know, much of your post is very Protestant in its approach to lived spirituality: the still, small voice of personal conscience and good acts in the world.

 

I grew up surrounded by working/middle-class WASPS and Pentecostal Zulus. In a setting like that, the good spirituality to be found amongst the sea of religious craziness always focused on a combination of personal conscience and good works. Ipso facto, it's culturally embedded in my DNA to think of a healthy spirituality as looking like that. 

 

You grew up in Texas, right? Maybe your cultural surroundings had a similar effect.

 

When I was growing up, it was like that.
I was raised Jewish. Now that you mention it, I remember as a child there was a case where a woman was murdered in NYC and nobody tried to intervene or even call the police. Everybody said they "didn't want to get involved." The Rabbi gave a long talk on that and said that not only should we ALWAYS get involved, it's who we are. A lot of Jewish identity comes down to being a mensch. There was never any pie in the sky stuff at those services. Prayers and songs, yes, but the talks were about making an effort to be a better person.

 

Most of the people I knew were Christians. I didn't know any nutty ones then. People didn't obsess on it in those days. They were Catholic or Methodist or whatever because their parents and grandparents had been. Some went to church, others were kind of nominally Christian and said things like "My church is in the woods." Those would probably be pagans now. And people mostly DID try to do the right thing. It was like a Johnny Cash Christianity, none of this Joel Osteen greed or Westboro Baptist hate. I'm not saying it was some kind of golden age. There were plenty of things like racism and ignorance. But religion wasn't crazy in those days. It wasn't yet a red flag if someone mentioned God or Jesus.

 

4 hours ago, devin said:

I also agree with you 100% on homeless people. If I lived rough, I'd want to be off my head most of the time.

 

Exactly.
Remember the Rat Park experiments? I'm not equating people to rats. But I AM saying that misery leads to self medicating.
 

4 hours ago, devin said:

What is heart breaking, though, is to see the young guys slip further and further into heavy drugs and all the nastiness that comes after that. Life is sad.

 

Yes. If addiction is a disease like people say it is, why do they punish people for it? Would you punish a person for having cancer? It makes no sense.

Some people will quit if you let them have reasons to want to live. Others will never stop - but so what? Set them up with a program that provides them maintenance doses on the condition that they remain crime free. There's been pilot programs like that. They work: a lot of these people start getting jobs, taking care of their kids, etc. And even if they're not "productive" so what? They're just living their lives, not stealing or bothering anyone.

 

4 hours ago, devin said:

As for the last bit, okay, I've said before I'm more of a Sky-Daddy kind of guy, but I always liked what Kurt Vonnegut said (or maybe what he reported his son as having said?): "We are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is."

 

EXACTLY that.
 

4 hours ago, devin said:

EDIT: OF course, I'm not saying that Protestants are the only religious folk that do good works, but they do have a heavier focus on personal conscience than many religions.

 

Here, the Catholics are the ones doing most of the charitable stuff. If you're ever in a strange city and you need food, find a Catholic church.

Of course, the poor need a lot more than a bag of nonperishable food once a month, and other peoples' old clothes, but it's something. Most of our Protestant churches don't even try.
We probably have a stronger Calvinist influence on the Protestant churches here. You know, the idea that God rewards good people with money and the poor somehow "deserve it."

[katrinka]

As for spirituality and being a decent person, some of the best people I've known have been total atheists.
It just goes to show that there are reasons for doing good other than thinking an invisible supreme being is watching you.

[RosieBlack]

27 minutes ago, malvina said:

Well, if one believes in spirits, ghosts, fae folk, etc., it doesn’t mean they also believe all those things are greater or higher, just different. And even believing in a higher power doesn’t equal the belief in life purpose. Life purpose or destiny also doesn’t have to be tied to bringing goodness into this world. So I think your approach isn’t universal. I personally wouldn’t equate decency and kindness, and perhaps what you would deem merely decent, I would call an extra step or going above and beyond. It’s all personal.

 

If we look up the definition of the word "decent", we find it relates to respectable or moral behaviour. I would equate this to kindness towards others. I wouldn't equate a belief in ghosts or spirits as being spiritual, it depends how you view them. Some people fear them, others respect them and see them as fascinating. Spirituality is not based around fear. When I say a belief in a higher power or something greater, I didn't mean ghosts and spirits. I meant what some people might like to refer to as "God" or The Universe. Something beyond us that gives us a purpose we are not aware of, a greater good beyond the superficial life humans observe in general. My approach may not be universal, but I don't think it would differ greatly among people. I can't quite comprehend what purpose anyone would have that didn't involve contributing something good. Maybe purpose doesn't have to be tied to bringing goodness into the world, but who are each of us to say what each person's purpose is? I'm unsure what mine is, but I'd still like to believe I have one and unless it's to do something of value then I see no point in me being here at all. 

[RosieBlack]

3 minutes ago, katrinka said:

As for spirituality and being a decent person, some of the best people I've known have been total atheists.
It just goes to show that there are reasons for doing good other than thinking an invisible supreme being is watching you.

 

Well, I'd like to point out that I didn't say anything about the only reason for being a good person being believing in some invisible being watching you. That's fear and that's exactly what I was referring to in my last comment. I was only agreeing with you that if someone does identify as being spiritual, then being a decent person would go hand in hand with that. I'm confused as to why I'm being targeted here when I was only agreeing with the sentiment of the post.....🤨

[katrinka]

5 minutes ago, RosieBlack said:

 

Well, I'd like to point out that I didn't say anything about the only reason for being a good person being believing in some invisible being watching you. That's fear and that's exactly what I was referring to in my last comment. I was only agreeing with you that if someone does identify as being spiritual, then being a decent person would go hand in hand with that. I'm confused as to why I'm being targeted here when I was only agreeing with the sentiment of the post.....🤨

 

You're not being targeted. Not sure where that came from?
 

[RosieBlack]

13 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 

You're not being targeted. Not sure where that came from?
 

 

it just feels like I've almost been criticised by multiple people for saying that spirituality and being a decent person goes hand in hand...even though I wasn't the one who said it in the first place, I was just agreeing with it. Nevermind though.

[katrinka]

I think real spirituality does. You can be decent without being spiritual but you can't be spiritual without being decent. That would be faking it.
I don't think we're actually disagreeing.

[devin]

58 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I was raised Jewish. Now that you mention it, I remember as a child there was a case where a woman was murdered in NYC and nobody tried to intervene or even call the police. Everybody said they "didn't want to get involved." The Rabbi gave a long talk on that and said that not only should we ALWAYS get involved, it's who we are. A lot of Jewish identity comes down to being a mensch. There was never any pie in the sky stuff at those services. Prayers and songs, yes, but the talks were about making an effort to be a better person.

 

Yeah, on the Protestant thing, I was particularly talking about the emphasis on personal conscience.... which maybe comes from Elijah and his still, small voice..... and he was more than a bit Jewish, I think.

[devin]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

They work: a lot of these people start getting jobs, taking care of their kids, etc. And even if they're not "productive" so what? They're just living their lives, not stealing or bothering anyone.

 

I couldn't agree more.... everyone deserves the basics.

[katrinka]

Elijah was most indubitably Jewish. 😉
I wish I could read the Tanakh (source of the Old Testament) in the original Hebrew along with the commentaries, etc. I'm told it makes a lot more sense. When things can't be translated well, they can come off as nonsensical and even vaguely evil, which the OT does in places. But there are still parts that made it through in a good, meaningful way. I think Elijah's still, small voice is one of those.