High Priestess

[Star83]

So ive read a few descriptions saying that HP is like the virgin nun. The female virgin version like the priest. But I also thought back in historic times that the high priestess was a highly regarded prostitute that the higher end of society used to respect and enjoy. So which one is it. Im confused.

[Raggydoll]

If we are speaking in terms of the RWS-system then I think it's clear that Waite considered The High Priestess and The Empress to be two sides of the same female archetype. The High Priestess would be like Diana or Mary as a virgin, and The Empress would be like Venus or Mary as mother to baby Jesus.

 

There is a passage in the Book of Revelations that is thought to describe Mary, and Waite chose to use symbolism from this passage in both of these cards.

 

Rev. 12:1 : "A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head"

 

You can see that The High Priestess has a Solar cross on her chest and a moon under her feet, while the Empress is wearing the crown of twelve stars. (Waite was born a catholic so there are lots of symbolic references to the Bible in the RWS Major Arcana.)

 

So if you are using the RWS-system, then yes, The High Priestess would be considered "a virgin" and definitely not a prostitute. But you are certainly allowed to interpret the cards as you wish and ignore any ideas that the original creator had. Not everyone is comfortable with Christian symbolism and that is perfectly fine. It is not necessary to understand or like Waites biblical references in order to use his and Pamela's cards!

[Star83]

You described it well. Thanks for clearing it up for me. I must admit I was hoping she was more of the sacred valuable prostitute cos it interests me more. So now I wonder what card would represent that.

[EmpyreanKnight]

I'm thinking that maybe the reversed, ill-dignified, or shadow aspect of the High Priestess could reflect that, if you read with those.

[Raggydoll]

Remember that tarot did not start with RWS, but several hundred years prior to this. So Waite does not have monopoly on what every card means. There are also, as EmpyreanKnight pointed out, shadow aspects to every archetype, and these shadow aspects will vary greatly from one tarot reader to another. And you can certainly choose to include that sort of meaning in your wider interpretation of this card. It is, after all, your deck and you are free to do as you wish with it. Meditate and see what comes to you. As far as history and tradition goes, I am not aware of any particular card having that specific type of meaning, but that certainly does not mean that one card never has had those connotations. Maybe someone else will chime in and give more insights into this.

 

[Esk]

I've heard that some priestress were indeed some kind of sacred prostitutes (in ancient oriental civilisations I think). But it's not at all the case everywhere and for every cult. What I remember from my studies(even if I've not studied priestress themselves in detail) is that high priestess were more some princess or daughters of an important noble family and their role in the temple and the cult of divinities were also a political way to reinforce the power of their family. For me it's more a political and religious role than a sexual one.

However in the imagery of the Rws high priestess there is an element that could fit with your idea. She wears a crown that looks like the one of the ancient egyptian godess Hathor, who embodies the feminity and also sexuality (even if she's not only this).

 

Personnaly I won't normally apply the meaning of sacred prostitute to the high priestess if she's not reversed. She's not somebody that I associate with sexual things (unlike the Empress and the queens ). But as Raggydoll said we all have a different way of reading cards.

However, you have admited that you prefer the meaning of the sacred protitute, so beware to not see in this card what you want to see instead of what you need to see. It's a mistake I've made myself frequently in a specific situation ;)

[Raggydoll]

I think Waite (or if it was Paul Foster Case) somewhere mentioned that the crown of The High Priestess is the crown of Isis. And Isis is considered by many as the 'original' Virgin Mary.

[Esk]

Originally it's the crown of Hathor. In the late pharaonic period and during the ptolemaic and roman times Isis was depicted with this crown because she integrated some of Hathor's attributes. I think the cult of Hathor declined meanwhile the cult of Isis developped. It's true that the late iconography of Isis with the cow horns and the sun is the one that has spread the most in Europe even if it's not hers at the origin.

 

I've never really understood why Isis is considered as the original virgin. I see her more in the archetype of the mother. But i've never search about this.

ButI agree in the mind of Waite Isis and the High priestess  were probably closer to the virgin than to the prostitute

[Star83]

Thank you all for your replies and for clarifying that up for me.

[Raggydoll]

Esk: Thank you for the addition about Isis vs Hathor. I must admit that I also struggled to see Isis as the original Virgin Mary when I read about it (but I am by no means an expert on this so it might just be my lack of knowledge and understanding that makes it hard for me to grasp the whole concept).

[Esk]

You're welcome. I'm not an expert too, in tarot or egyptology. I just studied History and Ancient Egypt few years ago but gave up at some point, so there's also probably some things I've forgotten.

 

 

 

[Trogon]

In the realm of "femininity", I've always attributed The High Priestess as relating to a "sacred feminine" (a term I've seen in some books). As such, she is the ideal of being feminine; what all men see as the ideal feminine embodiment - young, desirable, the ultimate female. But while that ideal has a lot of sexuality about it, it rises above the act of sex and becomes "sacred" and, to an extent, unattainable.

 

Waite wrote;

She has been called occult Science on the threshold of the Sanctuary of Isis, but she is really the Secret Church, the House which is of God and man. She represents also the Second Marriage of the Prince who is no longer of this world; she is the spiritual Bride and Mother, the daughter of the stars and the Higher Garden of Eden. She is, in fine, the Queen of the borrowed light, but this is the light of all. She is the Moon nourished by the milk of the Supernal Mother. In a manner, she is also the Supernal Mother herself--that is to say, she is the bright reflection.

 

Arthur Edward Waite. The Pictorial Key To The Tarot (Illustrated) (p. 39). Global Grey. Kindle Edition.

 

So, while there is an indication of "mother" that is probably better represented in The Empress.

 

I've also read mention of The High Priestess being representative of the Oracle of Delphi, and she is so pictured in some decks. In that context, she would be a sacred virgin and had to remain so. From the Wikipedia article; "Diodorus also explained how, initially, the Pythia was an appropriately clad young virgin, for great emphasis was placed on the Oracle's chastity and purity to be reserved for union with the god Apollo." But Diodorus (ancient Greek historian) goes on to tell of the rape of one such virgin Oracle, who was then replaced by elderly women dressed as virgins. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythia)

 

So, when it comes to The High Priestess representing such femininity, in my mind it is generally the "putting her on a pedestal" and idealizing her, rather than it being someone to have sex with. But then, on the occasions when The High Priestess has come up in a reading, I've generally seen her more as representing that hidden knowledge and the seeking of it that is also inherent in the card.

[Star83]

Well said Trogon.

[Star83]

So I've been thinking about this card for a while now, and I really like your interpretations guys...

 

But... I think my interpretation has been proven to me due to what happened to me over the weeks. A few weeks ago I was approached at the shops by my favourite gorgeous footballer. He wanted us to get together but I informed him that im married and Im not available. He saw me again out in public the week after and tried again. I declined, even though it was hard too. I was quite shocked to be honest. For I while I did a few tarot readings to see what exactly he wanted from me. 3 times (I swear) I got the high priestess. It is true, my behaviour is rather virgin like and I love the innocence. But it didn't make sense to think this man wanted to have a platonic thing with me. I did think about a friendship but I just didn't believe it was what he wanted and I didn't want to lead him on. So the third week I went to the shops again and surprise surprise he was there again. I had the courage to ask him what he wants from me and got into a deeper discussion trying to figure out where he was going, also so I could get him to stop cos nothing was going to happen no matter how attracted I was. He said that he loves my sweet cute angelic look and im just his type and he'd love to touch me more deeply. Anyway... moving on I eventually got it out of him that he enjoys threesomes and wanted me to be the woman he and his friends could enjoy being with, as in to watch. So yeah, now I definitely see this card as being the sacred prostitute.

[EmpyreanKnight]

Based on what you said, I think that he wants you because you seem like the High Priestess - you're not easy to get, your virtue is not a sham, and you don't look like the type who cheats around. Guys love challenges, so he thought what conquest would be more delicious than bagging an irreproachable married woman. This conforms to the traditional archetype of the HP, so yeah.

[Raggydoll]

I agree with what EmpyreanKnight just said. It seems very spot on.

[Ephemeridae]

Just stopping in for a moment to mention that "virginity" in a lot of historical contexts is not the same as the modern concept of virginity and simply meant unmarried, or un-fettered, so sacred virgin and sacred prostitute are not necessarily mutually exclusive concepts.

 

Also, the notion of giving the High Priestess the entire complex of the virgin/whore dichotomy and saying that you should read her as a prostitute if the card is reversed is totally nauseating.

[Star83]

Empy, I agree and was thinking also to myself that perhaps I came across as the high priestess and that's why he wanted me. That way he could brag to his mates and say hey I got this one.

[EmpyreanKnight]

Star83 was talking about sacred virgins and sacred prostitutes, and if we are talking about the modern context there is a stark difference. Even in antiquity it exists: the chastity and purity of the Vestal Virgins of Rome is so sacrosanct that the punishment for the violation of their oaths is their getting buried alive. Contrast this with temple prostitutes who serve the goddess Venus and yup - it exists. So in the spirit of her original question on how I would view sacred prostitution - I would stand by my view that I would attribute it to the reversed aspect of the High Priestess. I won't presume to judge them via modern mores - I see it as an archetype and nothing more.

 

Now if we're talking about plain prostitutes minus the religious aspect - nope I won't range it with the High Priestess at all, whether upright or reversed. This is because it loses its sacred/ritual/mystical aspect, so I'd feel that the link to the HP would be broken. So nobody here is saying that the High Priestess should be read as a prostitute if the card is reversed. Emphasis on the word "should" because what we are doing here is presenting our own opinions on Star83's original question - how to view the High Priestess vis-a-vis sacred (not just everyday/secular) prostitution. We're not trying to force anyone to agree with our opinions here because in the end, the cards are going to turn up depending on how you personally see them.

 

Regarding the garden variety, common whore - I would personally ascribe one to the reversed Queen of Pentacles if it's surrounded by such cards as the 4 of Pentacles for example. Now if anybody would begin a tirade accusing me of degrading a court card - by that logic there should be no card ascribed to prostitution. That would severely limit the range of one's cards, something I'm not willing to do with mine, whatever anyone says. Now if somebody presents to me a much more personally believable card/combination for a whore - that's when I will change my mind.

[Raggydoll]

I think all this talk about perhaps 'degrading' cards (and, EmpyreanKnight, I really don't think you are degrading them) or feeling nauseated by the thought of all of this, really comes down to what views we have of people that sell sex for money. I would hate to see this discussion turned into a way of shaming other people based on how they live their lives. Some people have no other choice but to sell their bodies for money, while others are being forced to do it. But even those, however many of them, that choose to sell sex should not be made to feel ashamed either. Let's be better people than that.

 

Getting back on subject, no one said that you should interpret a reversed High Priestess as a sacred prostitute. We just acknowledged the fact that different tarot readers have different ways of interpreting their cards and that sometimes cards can take on controversial meanings in a specific reading, due to a readers intuition. There are no hard rules as to what is a right or wrong way to read a card in a specific circumstance. There is the traditional way of seeing things, but not everyone goes by tradition all the time (or even some of the time). And that's fine too. So in a traditional way, then - as already been said in many ways and many times - no, the High Priestess would probably have nothing in common with a sacred prostitute.

[Star83]

I think all this talk about perhaps 'degrading' cards (and, EmpyreanKnight, I really don't think you are degrading them) or feeling nauseated by the thought of all of this, really comes down to what views we have of people that sell sex for money. I would hate to see this discussion turned into a way of shaming other people based on how they live their lives. Some people have no other choice but to sell their bodies for money, while others are being forced to do it. But even those, however many of them, that choose to sell sex should not be made to feel ashamed either. Let's be better people than that.

 

Thank you. I agree 100% with you and Empy..

 

I was thinking the world card for being a whore? I mean she's juggling so many sexual activities/toys at once. She is the master of sex.

[Star83]

Empyreanknight - on a separate note, im looking for your thread re your tarot book on sex tarot and I cant find it. Id like to ask you a question.

[Ephemeridae]

I'm afraid I've been misunderstood.

 

Firstly, of course sex workers are represented in the cards. Notice I said sex workers and not, "garden variety whores," or "goddesses of sex." Sex workers are just people in a service profession trying to make a living. Sex work is not degrading, nor does it "degrade the cards" (where did that even come from?).

 

The virgin/whore dichotomy is an insidious trope, and hugely false in describing people. You are ascribing that false dichotomy to the card when you say the card is a virgin while upright and a whore while reversed (that the "whore" representation is when the card is reversed when reversals are often read as "negative" just makes it worse). I realize archetypal representations are huge simplifications of reality, but this particular false dichotomy actively harms women and I can't stomach it even symbolically.

 

I disagree that "sacred virgin" and "sacred whore" are modern archetypes. I'm not saying that they don't exist in some esoteric aspect of modern culture somewhere, but they definitely aren't part of the average person's library of archetypes that they'd draw on for interactions down at the shops. If you're drawing on mythological or historical archetypes for card representations I do think it's important to consider context, and I just wanted to mention that, historically, virgin and prostitute were not mutually exclusive because it was a point that was missing from the conversation, not because I think it is the only correct way to view the card (that would be silly).

 

That having been said, the virgin/whore dichotomy is a trope that modern people would draw upon, and in this context I think it would make sense to read the High Priestess that way if we're trying to figure out what's going on in this guy's head with all his unsolicited sexual advances. But that doesn't mean that that is a correct or useful trope to ascribe to the High Priestess in a broader context.

[EmpyreanKnight]

I'm afraid I've been misunderstood.

 

Firstly, of course sex workers are represented in the cards. Notice I said sex workers and not, "garden variety whores," or "goddesses of sex." Sex workers are just people in a service profession trying to make a living. Sex work is not degrading, nor does it "degrade the cards" (where did that even come from?).

 

By garden variety whores, I mean regular sex workers as opposed to sacred prostitutes. Like Raggydoll, I imputed your "nauseated" comment vis-a-vis the relegation of the whore to the reversal of the High Priestess on an unfavorable view of the profession itself. It's good that you cleared that it is the seeming virgin/whore dichotomy of the thing that you disapprove of, and not the profession itself.

 

The virgin/whore dichotomy is an insidious trope, and hugely false in describing people. You are ascribing that false dichotomy to the card when you say the card is a virgin while upright and a whore while reversed (that the "whore" representation is when the card is reversed when reversals are often read as "negative" just makes it worse). I realize archetypal representations are huge simplifications of reality, but this particular false dichotomy actively harms women and I can't stomach it even symbolically.

 

Of course it is a false dichotomy. If you're not a virgin, you don't necessarily have to be a whore. You can be a mom, or you may just have healthy sexual appetites. In this case, the word "whore" has a negative connotation, otherwise you would not have a virulent reaction to it. Remember tho that what we are talking here in this thread is the concept of the High Priestess as a prostitute - i.e. a sacred whore. Check out Star83's original post. It does not carry a negative connotation with it - in fact their carnal services are considered a very important part of their worship. To be a sacred whore is not demeaning at all - it's fulfilling one's personal duty to one's deity. That is why it has the word sacred appended before it. The role of the sacred virgin is also important. Again, the sacred virgin and the sacred whore fulfill their religious/mystical commitments in different ways, and neither of them is derogatory. That's why I was surprised when you introduced the venomous virgin/whore trope here - because it is not what we're talking about. As I've just explained, there is a huge difference between the virgin/whore and the sacred virgin/sacred whore dichotomy. One is poisonous, while the other are two sides of the same coin. We're talking about the latter in this thread.

 

I disagree that "sacred virgin" and "sacred whore" are modern archetypes. I'm not saying that they don't exist in some esoteric aspect of modern culture somewhere, but they definitely aren't part of the average person's library of archetypes that they'd draw on for interactions down at the shops. If you're drawing on mythological or historical archetypes for card representations I do think it's important to consider context, and I just wanted to mention that, historically, virgin and prostitute were not mutually exclusive because it was a point that was missing from the conversation, not because I think it is the only correct way to view the card (that would be silly).

 

Nowhere did I say that it is a modern archetype.

 

Again, we're talking about sacred virgins and sacred prostitutes, not plain old virgins and prostitutes. Sacred virgins cannot be sacred prostitutes. They're mutually exclusive. I am going to stick to the topic here.

 

That having been said, the virgin/whore dichotomy is a trope that modern people would draw upon, and in this context I think it would make sense to read the High Priestess that way if we're trying to figure out what's going on in this guy's head with all his unsolicited sexual advances. But that doesn't mean that that is a correct or useful trope to ascribe to the High Priestess in a broader context.

 

I agree, I myself won't associate the virgin/whore trope to the High Priestess, as I've said in my last post. I would ascribe the sacred virgin/sacred prostitute reversals to it tho. It's a different thing.

 

If modern people want to learn the Tarot, they're free to study the differences and similarities between the sacred virgin and the sacred prostitute. It's just a google away after all. And actually, that's what this discussion is all about - discovering what historical priestess-prostitutes have to do with the atu of the High Priestess. Star83 has a notion of what sacred whores are - that's why even if she's a modern she wants to discuss how and even if that archetype has a connection with the HP. That's actually one of the raisons d'etre of this thread. So we can't just limit this discourse on modern archetypes - it would defeat the very essence of the thread. Please go back to Star83's original post. Anyways, limiting the Tarot to just the modern archetypes would be a frightful thing, and I'm sure many scholars would agree.

 

Now if it resonates with a reader, and they want to ascribe the sacred virgin as the upright and the sacred whore as the reversed aspects of the High Priestess like I do, then great! If they really don't see the point of including the latter in their repertoire of High Priestess connotations like Raggydoll does, then I fully respect that.

[EmpyreanKnight]

Empyreanknight - on a separate note, im looking for your thread re your tarot book on sex tarot and I cant find it. Id like to ask you a question.

 

HERE is my thread on Laurence's book, The Sexual Key To The Tarot. Just ask away. :)