High Priestess

[Raggydoll]

Ephemeridae: Yes, it was the "nauseated" bit that got to me. But it seems that I misunderstood what you meant. Glad you clarified that.

[Ephemeridae]

By garden variety whores, I mean regular sex workers as opposed to sacred prostitutes. Like Raggydoll, I imputed your "nauseated" comment vis-a-vis the relegation of the whore to the reversal of the High Priestess on an unfavorable view of the profession itself. It's good that you cleared that it is the seeming virgin/whore dichotomy of the thing that you disapprove of, and not the profession itself.

 

Please stop referring to sex workers as "garden variety whores." Maybe you don't realize how offensive it is, in fact I'm sure you don't because I don't believe that you would be intentionally hurtful. Please stop.

 

In this case, the word "whore" has a negative connotation, otherwise you would not have a virulent reaction to it.

 

I'm having the same reaction to the usage of the word "whore" in this thread that I would if the word "retard" or "faggot" were being thrown around. It's a pejorative specifically aimed at a stigmatized group of people and it's.. not okay. Putting the word "sacred" in front of it doesn't make it ok, either.

 

Again, we're talking about sacred virgins and sacred prostitutes, not plain old virgins and prostitutes. Sacred virgins cannot be sacred prostitutes. They're mutually exclusive. I am going to stick to the topic here.

 

No, they are not. There are a lot of years in human history, and innumerable cultures. Maybe in some traditions they're mutually exclusive, but certainly not in all. Again, I mentioned it because it was missing from the conversation. In many historical contexts, especially classical western traditions that Tarot often draws from, "virgin" only meant unmarried, and those traditions also used ritual sex. In those cases, the women employed by temples to preform ritual sex would have been considered virgins.

 

Also, I don't think you can pull the "sacred" virgin/prostitute idea out of broader cultural context and say that it must be totally different, but that's a debate for a different time.

 

I agree, I myself won't associate the virgin/whore trope to the High Priestess, as I've said in my last post. I would ascribe the sacred virgin/sacred prostitute reversals to it tho. It's a different thing.

 

Eh... like I said before, that's really up for debate. It's a different thing in that ritual sex is different from domestic sex, but that doesn't necessarily make the dichotomy less harmful for the women of the culture that practice belongs to.

 

If modern people want to learn the Tarot, they're free to study the differences and similarities between the sacred virgin and the sacred prostitute. It's just a google away after all. And actually, that's what this discussion is all about - discovering what historical priestess-prostitutes have to do with the atu of the High Priestess. Star83 has a notion of what sacred whores are - that's why even if she's a modern she wants to discuss how and even if that archetype has a connection with the HP. That's actually one of the raisons d'etre of this thread. So we can't just limit this discourse on modern archetypes - it would defeat the very essence of the thread. Please go back to Star83's original post. Anyways, limiting the Tarot to just the modern archetypes would be a frightful thing, and I'm sure many scholars would agree.

 

Back to the topic at hand, I was simply adding a missing piece of information to the discussion, that historically some prostitutes were considered virgins and that it was possible for the High Priestess to be both at the same time.

[EmpyreanKnight]

By garden variety whores, I mean regular sex workers as opposed to sacred prostitutes. Like Raggydoll, I imputed your "nauseated" comment vis-a-vis the relegation of the whore to the reversal of the High Priestess on an unfavorable view of the profession itself. It's good that you cleared that it is the seeming virgin/whore dichotomy of the thing that you disapprove of, and not the profession itself.

 

Please stop referring to sex workers as "garden variety whores." Maybe you don't realize how offensive it is, in fact I'm sure you don't because I don't believe that you would be intentionally hurtful. Please stop.

 

I believe in calling a spade a spade. Again, I used the term garden variety (i.e. usual or ordinary, commonplace) whore to differentiate it from sacred whores (see the original context in which I used it), but since you politely asked me to stop, as a gentleman I shall desist.

 

In this case, the word "whore" has a negative connotation, otherwise you would not have a virulent reaction to it.

 

I'm having the same reaction to the usage of the word "whore" in this thread that I would if the word "retard" or "faggot" were being thrown around. It's a pejorative specifically aimed at a stigmatized group of people and it's.. not okay. Putting the word "sacred" in front of it doesn't make it ok, either.

 

Check out who is the very first commenter here who used the word "whore". I'll wait.

 

I had to use the word whore to make readers see that the virgin/whore dichotomy is very different from the sacred virgin/sacred prostitute (i.e. sacred whore) duality. In this thread, it is used for the sake of discussion, and not at all as a pejorative. If you want to feel outraged at the use of the word "whore", which again you yourself introduced to this thread, I shan't be stopping you.

 

Again, we're talking about sacred virgins and sacred prostitutes, not plain old virgins and prostitutes. Sacred virgins cannot be sacred prostitutes. They're mutually exclusive. I am going to stick to the topic here.

 

No, they are not. There are a lot of years in human history, and innumerable cultures. Maybe in some traditions they're mutually exclusive, but certainly not in all. Again, I mentioned it because it was missing from the conversation. In many historical contexts, especially classical western traditions that Tarot often draws from, "virgin" only meant unmarried, and those traditions also used ritual sex. In those cases, the women employed by temples to preform ritual sex would have been considered virgins.

 

To rebut my point, give me cases where the sacred virgin is the same as the sacred whore. Emphasis on the word sacred. My mentor taught me that if I engage in any debate, I must always make sure that I and the person on the other team don't stray from the point at hand. As I've so heavily pointed out, we were discussing the sacred virgin/sacred prostitute duality until you came in and tried to correlate it to the virgin/whore dichotomy, which is a markedly different thing. Your outrage was because you strayed away from the topic, simple as that.

 

Also, I don't think you can pull the "sacred" virgin/prostitute idea out of broader cultural context and say that it must be totally different, but that's a debate for a different time.

 

What? Of course I'm going to point out that the sacred virgin/sacred prostitute duality (i.e. the original point of this thread) is different from the virgin/whore dichotomy (which you tried to swing this thread to). I just pointed out in my previous post how disparate they are. Nobody is pulling anything out of a broader cultural context - it js you who strayed so far from the discussion and was proclaiming your outrage (which is a direct result of what you did), so I called you out on that. Again, you tried to hijack the discussion on sacred virgins and sacred prostitutes (both of which are not considered as negative and are even revered) and tried to foist the virgin/whore trope on it (which again is a different thing and is poisonous) so I had to point out exactly what you're doing. And you won't even acknowledge that the sacred virgin/sacred prostitute is different from the virgin/whore smh.

 

I agree, I myself won't associate the virgin/whore trope to the High Priestess, as I've said in my last post. I would ascribe the sacred virgin/sacred prostitute reversals to it tho. It's a different thing.

 

Eh... like I said before, that's really up for debate. It's a different thing in that ritual sex is different from domestic sex, but that doesn't necessarily make the dichotomy less harmful for the women of the culture that practice belongs to.

 

Again, apples and oranges. We were talking about sacred prostitution here, which is generally considered as an important and revered institution in some cultures. Read all the previous comments. Nobody considered sacred prostitution as a negative. Your outrage in this thread is sadly misplaced. Again: stick to the topic.

 

If modern people want to learn the Tarot, they're free to study the differences and similarities between the sacred virgin and the sacred prostitute. It's just a google away after all. And actually, that's what this discussion is all about - discovering what historical priestess-prostitutes have to do with the atu of the High Priestess. Star83 has a notion of what sacred whores are - that's why even if she's a modern she wants to discuss how and even if that archetype has a connection with the HP. That's actually one of the raisons d'etre of this thread. So we can't just limit this discourse on modern archetypes - it would defeat the very essence of the thread. Please go back to Star83's original post. Anyways, limiting the Tarot to just the modern archetypes would be a frightful thing, and I'm sure many scholars would agree.

 

Back to the topic at hand, I was simply adding a missing piece of information to the discussion, that historically some prostitutes were considered virgins and that it was possible for the High Priestess to be both at the same time.

 

What you pointed out is nice but is again irrelevant to the discussion. The sacred prostitute is different from the sacred virgin. To be a sacred prostitute you have to give up your virginity, but to be a sacred virgin you have to zealously defend it, otherwise you'd be stripped of your office or even mortally punished. As I've mentioned, they are two mutually exclusive terms. Unless you can cite evidences to the contrary, your point is moot.

[Ephemeridae]

To the OP, I am very sorry that my comments and subsequent attempts at clarification have contributed to bringing your thread so far off track.

 

EmpyreanKnight, I feel like my previous explanations have not been sufficient and I do not wish to continue to beat a dead horse. Nothing in your reply made much sense to me based on the ideas that I was trying to convey, and I think we are having a misunderstanding on a very fundamental, perhaps cultural, level. At no point in this discussion did I feel outrage or anger about the subject or anyone's point of view, and I still don't.

[EmpyreanKnight]

I attributed your "nauseous" comment as a sort of personal outrage on your part on how the whore can be considered as the reversal of the High Priestess - more like strong indignation than outright anger. In any case, I feel too that there is a fundamental disconnect in the way we view the topic at hand, Ephemeridae. I guess we can just agree to disagree. No hard feelings tho. :)

 

English is only my second language, and especially in its written form it can seem impersonal, charmless, and even coldly cutting if used in contentious discourse so I hope that I haven't been offensive. I shall strive to be better.

[Star83]

I didn’t want to offend anyone using the words whore and prostitute. That is the title of these women and I have a lot of respect for them. We need them. Here is my definition of sacred prostitute - someone who is highly regarded to the men. She is someone who is a mystery who is unattainable for as long as she wants. She feels like a virgin with every man she sees. Men think she’s untouchable so it adds extra excitement even if they just get touched and kissed by her. Their masculinity makes her feel virgin and receptive. She patiently waits to be seen. She will choose how far she goes with the men, realising it’s far more pleasurable in the starting phases of erotica than completion with intercourse. Therefore she may choose all kind nds of foreplay without intercourse cos she’s too pure. Plus she doesn’t want pregnancy as this may blow her persona. She likes her role. Every male encounter is a fresh virgin experience.

[Star83]

http://wakingbeauty.com/akashic-records/10-signs-you-are-a-reincarnated-sacred-sexual-priestess-and-what-to-do-about-it/

 

This is a good read on how I see the high priestess sexually.

[Star83]

I also want to add that I see the sacred prostitute as a sexual healer. She is more intuitive and nurturing that the so called garden whores. The types of men who see her need sexual healing and she needs it too after being sexually repressed or wounded. A knight normally wouldn’t feel the need to see a sacred prostitute. He has so many women throwing themselves at him he can have sex in every town he visits with whichever woman he fancies. I see footballers as knights. The high priestess sees herself as special. She feels special and she wants to be treated special. The footballer/knight wouldn’t pay or provide offerings if he can have a willing girl for free. But the invisible attraction is there. The HP is therefore seen as unattainable. However, in my footballer scenario I do think the guy was wounded and that’s probably why I attracted him. He is divorced with 4 kids and is struggling with moving on.