VII of Swords

[Guest]

I do not deny the fact of "cheating" (fraud, theft, etc ...), I am simply expanding the meaning of this card. But "deception" is not the main thing for me ... (in the context of this card).

[Eric13]

But! there's also what the individual number itself represents in tarot. Seven is not a number to rely on to positively. It's an unbalanced number, one down low on the tree and if taken the wrong way can create some deep illusions in the wrong perception of the given moment. 

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Raido said:

in my personal mythological tarot deck

 

It's a deck you made for your personal use then, according to what you think the cards should mean?

This is the equivalent of the 7 of Swords in the Vamp Tarot from Jook Art:

 

It is not Golden Dawn based. The Majors are taken from ‘The Symbolism of the Tarot’ by PD Ouspensky published in 1913. The Minors are taken from the 15th century tarot poetry of Count Matteo Boiardo. He proposed a 78 card tarot deck with the minors being split into suits based on the Four Passions of Fear, Jealousy, Hope and Love. Boiardo wrote a three-line poem for each card, and these are shown in their entirety on each minor card in the deck.

Do I use it? Yes. Does it work? Yes. But I wouldn't jump into a general discussion about the 7 of Swords like this one and say the 7S is a card of sparking fear in opponents or enemies because that's not relevant here. These general discussions have to do with RWS/Golden Dawn type decks, since everyone has those. When we're talking about a different system, we generally give it a thread of its own or at least specify that we're using a deck with different meanings. 

[gregory]

So where is it to be seen ? (I wasn't suggesting you were in breach of copyright, I am just interested in decks I don't know. I'm FAMOUS for such interest !)

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Eric13 said:

But! there's also what the individual number itself represents in tarot. Seven is not a number to rely on to positively. It's an unbalanced number, one down low on the tree and if taken the wrong way can create some deep illusions in the wrong perception of the given moment. 

Yes, I mentioned about illusions ... Because 7 is a perfect (consummation) number. This is sometimes dangerous.🤔

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, gregory said:

So where is it to be seen ? (I wasn't suggesting you were in breach of copyright, I am just interested in decks I don't know. I'm FAMOUS for such interest !)

 

Trumps: https://ibb.co/album/X70fxs

 

Swords: https://ibb.co/album/68XTmD

 

Cups: https://ibb.co/album/3BLTfp

 

Coins: https://ibb.co/album/y4LW8D

 

Clubs: https://ibb.co/album/DLRXWp

[katrinka]

This is what I was referring to in my last post. This:

 

is not germane to this:

 

The same meanings would not apply.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 

 

The same meanings would not apply.

Anything is applicable (apply), because the Tarot is a playing cards. Primordial (initially). Not for fortune telling.

I feel (understand for myself) this card the way I feel ..., Mr. Waite felt this card differently ... You can also feel it differently ... just like any other person. There are no universal rules here. These are obvious things…

Edited November 22, 2021 by Guest

[katrinka]

16 minutes ago, Raido said:

Anything is applicable (apply), because the Tarot is a playing cards. Primordial (initially). Not for fortune telling.

Don't lecture us on the origin and purpose of the cards. 
And no, "anything" is NOT applicable. We're talking about a card interpretation.
 

16 minutes ago, Raido said:

I feel (understand for myself) this card the way I feel ..., Mr. Waite felt this card differently ... You can also feel it differently ... just like any other person. There are no universal rules here. These are obvious things…

 

This thread is not about peoples' feelings. It's about the 7 of Swords.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Don't lecture us on the origin and purpose of the cards. 
And no, "anything" is NOT applicable. We're talking about a card interpretation.
 

 

This thread is not about peoples' feelings. It's about the 7 of Swords.

I was just talking about the 7 swords until you started lecturing me : what I should think (and how) and what should not.

[katrinka]

16 minutes ago, Raido said:

I was just talking about the 7 swords until you started lecturing me : what I should think (and how) and what should not.

 

No, I was explaining to you that you're off topic with that deck and those meanings, since they aren't relevant to what's being discussed here. I have no interest in what you think. I don't care. It just doesn't belong here where it's generally understood we're discussing RWS-type decks. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by katrinka

[gregory]

41 minutes ago, Raido said:

Anything is applicable (apply), because the Tarot is a playing cards. Primordial (initially). Not for fortune telling.

I feel (understand for myself) this card the way I feel ..., Mr. Waite felt this card differently ... You can also feel it differently ... just like any other person. There are no universal rules here. These are obvious things…

 

We were talking about 7 Swords here - can we get back to that ? And there are - how should one say - generic, basically universal meanings for any WS deck. Your chosen (and I use the word "chosen" advisedly) digress rather more than enormously, and whatever you may feel,. cannot realistically be applied to a Waite/Smith deck. Even my own deck sticks pretty closely to the "originals" as written up by Waite.

[gregory]

1 hour ago, Raido said:

 

Trumps: https://ibb.co/album/X70fxs

 

Swords: https://ibb.co/album/68XTmD

 

Cups: https://ibb.co/album/3BLTfp

 

Coins: https://ibb.co/album/y4LW8D

 

Clubs: https://ibb.co/album/DLRXWp

 

Thank you; I will contemplate them after my rather major dental session in the morning....

[fire cat pickles]

On 11/15/2021 at 12:41 PM, TheAlchemistsAbode said:

VII of Swords is🌛 in ♒️. Isn’t this a card of intuitive wisdom? 
 

What do we think? 🤔

Yes, this the topic: Golden Dawn 7 of Swords (Moon in Aquarius). Sun is debilitated and Saturn is honored.  The Moon is nothing. No power, no intuition,  no glory. A dangerous position for her to be in. Not a good card as far as traditional meanings go. Newer authors may take an intuitive approach and assign whatever meanings they wish, but it isn't Moon in Aquarius and it isn't GD. And it isn't what we're discussing here.

[gregory]

Was it essentially a GD discussion ? I had thought more WS.

[Guest]

They have plans ... (strategic)🤫

 

He has an idea ... scientific ...

 

[katrinka]

4 minutes ago, gregory said:

Was it essentially a GD discussion ? I had thought more WS.

It basically IS about RWS. I was being inclusive, since the GD, Crowley, etc. can help clarify RWS. Waite was purposely vague at times.

Edited November 22, 2021 by katrinka

[Eric13]

Golden Dawn 7 of Swords: Lord Of Unstable Effort. 

 

I myself brought up the issue of the No. 7 as a whole because I read/saw about interpreting it in ways it shouldn't be. It's not a card of success. 

[katrinka]

5 minutes ago, Raido said:

They have plans ... (strategic)🤫

He has an idea ... scientific ...

 

 

[Guest]

Foxes are my favorite animals. After the dogs ...)) The fox is the animal symbol for this card. For me.

 

Foxes are deemed as cunning as their reasoning ability to find and learn the way around hunter traps is one of their innate qualities. As many fox hunters use bred dogs for fox hunting but even so these cunning little creatures are able to outwit them.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Guest

[gregory]

33 minutes ago, Eric13 said:

Golden Dawn 7 of Swords: Lord Of Unstable Effort. 

 

I myself brought up the issue of the No. 7 as a whole because I read/saw about interpreting it in ways it shouldn't be. It's not a card of success. 

 

Indeed it is not. Not in any deck I have ever used - not even in any deck I own - and I have - quite a few from - I think - all the various traditions.

[Moomintroll]

I think that the 7 of swords is much more than a thief card.

And as a word, Futility is quite abstract.

Of course a lot depends on which deck you are using.

It can mean that there is some kind of tricky and unclear situation going on, even dangerous.

People may have mixed motives and you, or someone else, may be unsure of one’s role, maybe afraid or untrusting.

Situation may demand that you prepare, study and investigate all the details before proceeding.

Situation may need to be faced with extra honesty and you have to have so much self knowledge that you don’t lapse into self deception, although it may be wise to think things through, be discreet and not expose your plans or thoughts prematurely.

Maybe you have to be your own attorney.

That Waite Smith guy (whose outlook imo is misleading) may be someone who tries to unarm the the situation between enemy camps and in order to do that he needs wisdom and diplomacy. He may be some kind of mediator.

I heard from an skillful tarotist that this may also be a situation where you need some kind of surprising playfullness and creativity in order to discharge the loaded situation.

This warlike situation may also be going on inside yourself and you have to find a way to conquer something that blocks your way forward, this can be a bad habit, for example. Maybe distressing state of mind is the reason why you have to face  7 of swords situations in the outer world and you may have to think through what is the root of the problem, as within so without.

I am myself a lot 7 of swords kind of lone wolf and many times I have had to face situations where I have been misunderstood, possibly partly due to my poor communication skills:(.

In worst cases this person may indeed be someone you’d better watch but at its best could also be someone with brilliant and original mind.

All sevens, being the number of the Chariot, can demand a lot from you and this can be the most hardest.

[katrinka]

57 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

And as a word, Futility is quite abstract.

Not really. Abstractions exist only as thoughts or ideas.

But it's easy to quantify whether something brings results or not. We work, we get paid. If the company doesn't pay us, working for them is futile and we seek work elsewhere. It's the same with diet & exercise, or dog training, or anything, really. If we're not getting results it would be futile to continue on the current course, so we try something else.

 

 

1 hour ago, Moomintroll said:

That Waite Smith guy (whose outlook imo is misleading) may be someone who tries to unarm the the situation between enemy camps and in order to do that he needs wisdom and diplomacy. He may be some kind of mediator.

That's not the intention of the image. Mediators don't sneak around on their tiptoes looking over their shoulders.

I'm sure I posted this upthread, but it bears repeating. It's addressing the Thoth, but you can see how the RWS was inspired by the same idea:

"Now none of the Suits is lucky within the Seven - the Wands burn down, the Cups nearly drown and the Disks are out cold - yet the Swords are least willing to accept their fate and activate every trick and list they can figure to get along. And considering that the Swords are pure intellect, they are embarrassingly good in figuring out tricks..

"Therefore, the Seven of Swords can talk of trickery, cheating, sudden affronts, juggling and intentional confusing with unrestrained Mercurian amorality. Though, all the lists are bound to fail, even the clever Swords cannot escape the hand of fate."

 

https://www.corax.com/tarot/cards/swords-7.html

 

[Moomintroll]

You write as if there is only one truth. One way to interprete.

Things are complex.

There are many tongues, many opinions, many points of view.

I get the feeling that you are forcing your own opinion as if absolute truth.

What I writed based on my own experience and it was coming from my heart.

I have always tried to understand people who are powerless, victimized, misunderstood. Who are made feel guilty even if they have done anything wrong. Trying to survive in this crazy world without a voice.

I myself have been one of them.

Futility as a word can describe some situation and challenge you to go deeper, for me it is not any verdict or doom.

You see one thing in that tiptoeing guy, you project your own experience to it.

I see something other.

I feel as if you are denying me my own experience.

Sometimes one can end up in situations where there is overly dogmatic, forceful opinions and even bullying. These kind of people can make you feel like a victim, even lier, forcing you to rettreat, maybe tiptoeing quietly away. Shamed.

I try to accept others as they are and respect their opinions even if they differ from my own. But it is very hard for me to understand someone from whom I get the feeling that there is only one right way, their way to see things.

 

[katrinka]

7 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

You write as if there is only one truth. One way to interprete.

Things are complex.

There are many tongues, many opinions, many points of view.

I get the feeling that you are forcing your own opinion as if absolute truth.

 

That's a complete misapprehension of what we're even talking about.
Things like religious ideas are open to interpretation, since nobody knows. If somebody wants to believe that Popeye sits in the throne of God, and they're not using that belief to persecute anyone, they're welcome to believe that.

Words, on the other hand, have definitions. They aren't open to interpretation. We use them to communicate, so we have to hold the definitions in common. "Futility" doesn't mean anything you want it to.

The RWS, and by extension, Golden Dawn based decks, also follow a system. There's some minor variations at times, but the core meanings remain intact.

And nobody's "forcing" anything on you. You're crying persecution where there is none. You said some things that were erroneous, I rebutted them. Nobody sent the gestapo to your house. 🙄

 

7 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

You see one thing in that tiptoeing guy, you project your own experience to it.

I see something other.

 

What you're seeing is not what was intended when the card was created. The cards are a pictorial language. They communicate specific ideas.
If I got a RWS-based deck and the face on the Sun reminded me of Tom Cruise, that would not make the Sun a card of cults and insanity.
 

7 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

I feel as if you are denying me my own experience.

 

Oy vey.
 

7 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

Sometimes one can end up in situations where there is overly dogmatic, forceful opinions and even bullying. These kind of people can make you feel like a victim, even lier, forcing you to rettreat, maybe tiptoeing quietly away. Shamed.

 

It's ironic that you speak of that, since what you're doing is an attempt to manipulate people into thinking that if anyone contradicts anything you say, no matter how specious, they're "bullying."

You can speak. But so can the rest of us.