No images on minor arcarna

[Newpath]

Hope I’ve posted this in the right section. Basically my first tarot deck (Anne Stokes: Legends) has no images on the minor arcana cards. It just has say 5 swords for the Five of Swords. Is it possible to read these? If not could I take the major arcana cards and court cards and use the deck with only them as they have images? 

[gregory]

You can read with them, just as you can with a Marseille deck, but if you aren't comfortable with that - sure, just use the majors

[Newpath]

3 hours ago, gregory said:

You can read with them, just as you can with a Marseille deck, but if you aren't comfortable with that - sure, just use the majors

Thanks. I think I’ll use the cards with images. I presume it takes the intuitive side away from it when reading with no picture? I’m also not even close to knowing all of the individual card meanings.

[DanielJUK]

I've moved your thread over to the Tarot Talk & Technique section @Newpath. You nearly had it right but you are discussing techniques for how to read minor cards with no images so I think it fits better over here 🙂

[Alleah]

On 11/30/2021 at 9:32 PM, Newpath said:

Thanks. I think I’ll use the cards with images. I presume it takes the intuitive side away from it when reading with no picture? I’m also not even close to knowing all of the individual card meanings.

It really makes no difference whatsoever if the cards have picture illustrations or just illustrate the basic symbology of a card, the 5W is the 5W for example in any pack based on Rider Waite it means the same thing.  The full spectrum for possible meanings applies to 5W in any pack of cards irrelevant of the deck creators vision.  If a deck creator chose to illustrate the death card as a rose which traditionally symbolises love it does not and will not follow that death symbolises love as it symbolises death or an ending/transition and the deck creators vision cannot change the meaning of the archetypal meaning of the death card, under this light it seems to me that the deck creators vision and illustration is really only relevant to them personally and nuances are irrelevant. 

 

So, we can use any book to learn the spectrum of meanings for each card but we need to focus all of our learning and understanding on the card imagery of one pack of cards only if we wish to fast track.  A longer way round (towards mastery) would be to use several packs of cards but this is pointless imho we need to appreciate it's not the card imagery that's important rather it's what we pin onto the card imagery that gives it meaning so we learn the associations and when 5W for example appears in a spread the imagery and symbolism on a familiar pack of cards serves to jolt our memory of all the associations we have learnt and pinned on it over the years.  if we were to use an alternative pack of cards with unfamiliar imagery we can carry across what we've learnt and know the card to mean but this would be from translating info from your native and long standing deck of cards across to another pack and until you became very familiar with the imagery the card would not spark the spectrum of applications in our memory and it's very frustrating in my experience. 

 

In this way every pack of cards speaks through a different medium (the illustrations or symbology) and may be seen as a different language which translates to the same meaning across the board.  As an example if we were studying towards a tarot degree or equivalent or any degree in any subject for that matter the quickest and easiest way would be to undertake your studies in the same language, if however the medium (the language) were to rotate from yr one to year three so we studied for our degree in English the first year, German the second and French the third it would certainly throw a spanner in the works and make life very difficult for us as we'd have to learn a new language or medium through which to study our chosen subject.  Seems to me this is what happens when we swap decks, it slows us up tremendously and at the end of three yrs we would of grasped some German, some French but very little tarot because we've spent most of the time familiarising ourselves with the different languages.  You may feel differently and that's fine but for this reason I only read via one language or set of imagery through until mastery which is nothing short of a lifetime!

 

Whether the cards are illustrated or not will not affect our intuitive capacity, intuition kicks in much later once we have familiarised ourselves with the language and symbology and it's so so subtle to begin with we may actually miss the fact it's our intuition helping us but as it becomes stronger and the difference between imagination and intuition (which are channelled through the same avenue) becomes palpable we begin working with spiritual energies.  Eventually after many yrs in my experience though it may be quicker or slower for others the psychic senses start developing, that's to say clairvoyance (clear seeing), clairaudiance (clear hearing), clairsentience (clear knowing) telepathy and so on start developing, look up "the clairs" if you wish to research. 

 

So what we are doing through the process of learning the symbology of cards is using the tarot to develop psychic ability and once that ability is strong enough we will no longer need to use the cards, for example I was reading a client without cards and clairvoyantly received the impression of the Tower  along with a plated meal which I understood to mean change and disruption (keywords for the tower) linked to diet, clairsentience made me feel this lady was turning vegetarian which indeed she had a week previous.  The imagery of the tower was from the Rider Waite as that's the medium I developed through but you will receive imagery from whichever pack you've learnt and memorised and this is another reason for only developing through one pack of cards exclusively, we do not need for example 6 different impressions of the tower from a variety of packs as this only serves to confuse.  If however we wanted to expand our spiritual vocabulary we could learn flower symbology, flags of the world, traditional dream symbology etc.

 

The language of spirit is imagery and symbology and if we  study it until it's second nature then we will arrive at our destination with a full dictionary of symbols enabling two way communication with the psychic and spiritual realms.  If we were to carry on developing above and beyond the psychic realm we reach the spiritual realm where we connect with those who have transitioned and live at home in spirit but it takes yrs so set yourself up for a long haul, patience and persistence along with mediation are your greatest allies.  Enjoy!

Edited December 1, 2021 by Alleah

[Rodney]

Scenic Minors give you a visual queue from which to read. There are many different systems that can be applied to non-scenic/pip Minors. You could apply numerology, playing card interpretations, or even Kabbalah to the number or you could associate the number back to the Major Arcana (so a 6 Cups would the The Lovers applied to love and the 6 Pentacles would be the Lovers applied to money). There are many different ways (and all of them valid) to read the Minors.

[Rose Lalonde]

I agree with Rodney. Scenic minors give visual cues (and you can see where artists differ in interpretation or which aspects of the card they're highlighting). But there are lots of systems for reading non-scenic minors. (Since I'm someone who gets in hot water sometimes if I mention that I read TdM pips via hermetic Kabbalah, it was a treat to see that listed as equally valid.)

 

The art is an important part of my readings, both for pips and scenic, so it make me a bit picky about reading decks. 

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, Alleah said:

It really makes no difference whatsoever if the cards have picture illustrations or just illustrate the basic symbology of a card, the 5W is the 5W for example in any pack based on Rider Waite it means the same thing. 

 

1. The OP was asking about a pip deck, not a RWS-based deck.

2. Even among RWS based decks, while there is a common thread, i.e., Waite/GD meanings, they don't "mean the same thing." Using identical interpretations for every deck is not reading the cards you're using, it's reading RWS. All of that has already been addressed here:

 

5 hours ago, Alleah said:

If we were to carry on developing above and beyond the psychic realm we reach the spiritual realm where we connect with those who have transitioned and live at home in spirit

 

Some people believe that. A lot of us don't, however. Nor do we come here to have other peoples' religious ideas pushed on us.

 

What you're basically saying is that people "need to" limit themselves to one deck so they can eventually talk to dead people. The OP wasn't asking about how to talk to dead people, they were asking about reading a pip deck.

Edited December 2, 2021 by katrinka

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

Since I'm someone who gets in hot water sometimes if I mention that I read TdM pips via hermetic Kabbalah

 

What? Why? There's no reason not to do that...

[Rose Lalonde]

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

What? Why? There's no reason not to do that...

I got that impression on other forums, but it's entirely possible I assumed that a few people's comments were indicative of many. (I don't want to stray off the OP's topic here, but that's the gist.)

[stephanelli]

@Alleah

This may be what you believe and how you do things, but please consider wording your posts in a way that doesn't sound disrespectful and offensive to other people's ways of doing things.

 

We are a forum and everyone will have a different way of doing things so we must respect everyone's method.

[Newpath]

I bought this deck as my first ever deck. I changed to the Rider Waite after reading a lot about good beginners decks and talking to my tarot reader. I aren’t planning on using the original deck just yet as I feel I am nowhere near ready to memorise meanings. I also believe that card meanings change in different situations depending what is seen in the imagery. Surely having no imagery would take that away?

[stephanelli]

12 minutes ago, Newpath said:

I bought this deck as my first ever deck. I changed to the Rider Waite after reading a lot about good beginners decks and talking to my tarot reader. I aren’t planning on using the original deck just yet as I feel I am nowhere near ready to memorise meanings. I also believe that card meanings change in different situations depending what is seen in the imagery. Surely having no imagery would take that away?

Yes in a way.

(I should put a disclaimer that I have one pip deck but I very rarely use it because of my own preferences).

 

But in pip decks, you can memorise an "essence"of each card, boil the cards meaning down to a single word.  But from there, there's many ways that one word can apply to a situation.  The key will be the question, the context of the reading (i.e. the other cards) and any background the client has perhaps given you.

 

Let's say the essence of a card was celebration.  You celebrate in a number of ways from a small celebration at home with just your partner to a full blown party to simply treating yourself to a pamper session or a bar of chocolate.  You'll find more clues in the other cards in the reading.

 

Depending on the pip deck you use, you can use the placement of the pips on the card, any shapes you see in them and how they relate to the rest of the cards to get extra intuitive insight.  I'm not at all an expert in this, but I have seen it done.  Personally I think it possibly helps if you have a strong knowledge of symbolism, but as I say, I'm definitely not an expert.

[gregory]

15 minutes ago, Newpath said:

I bought this deck as my first ever deck. I changed to the Rider Waite after reading a lot about good beginners decks and talking to my tarot reader. I aren’t planning on using the original deck just yet as I feel I am nowhere near ready to memorise meanings. I also believe that card meanings change in different situations depending what is seen in the imagery. Surely having no imagery would take that away?

 

Not necessarily. There is almost always SOME degree of imagery. The way the leaves wind on the wands; the designs on the cups, But for now, use the deck you feel comfortable with anyway. IF and when TdM style calls to you - that's the time to try them.

 

47 minutes ago, stephanelli said:

@Alleah

This may be what you believe and how you do things, but please consider wording your posts in a way that doesn't sound disrespectful and offensive to other people's ways of doing things.

 

We are a forum and everyone will have a different way of doing things so we must respect everyone's method.

 

Thank you, Stephanelli.

 

[Newpath]

Thanks all. It’s just a shame because the court cards and majors have really nice images.

[gregory]

Well for learning purposes you could pull the cards from your Waite deck, and when you've done the reading, pull them for the other as well, and see how they work with the interps you just got. How does this 7 of pents fit what you just took from the Waite deck one ?

[stephanelli]

6 minutes ago, Newpath said:

Thanks all. It’s just a shame because the court cards and majors have really nice images.

Don't be afraid to just use those in a reading.  Just remember that you won't be getting the full insight the deck can give you!

And if you're reading for yourself, don't be afraid to reference a guidebook or homemade cheat sheet if you need to and want to use the whole deck without memorising everything.  I do this with new to me decks loads.

[gregory]

10 hours ago, Alleah said:

If a deck creator chose to illustrate the death card as a rose which traditionally symbolises love it does not and will not follow that death symbolises love as it symbolises death or an ending/transition and the deck creators vision cannot change the meaning of the archetypal meaning of the death card, under this light it seems to me that the deck creators vision and illustration is really only relevant to them personally and nuances are irrelevant. 

 

I hate to burst your balloon, but as one who once got 10 Swords for a happy marriage (and it made total sense to the sitter) - sorry; I don't buy that. The underlying meanings hold - but there are further vast areas to be explored by imagery and by context. @Rodney's examples above are classic.

[DanielJUK]

I've seen some people use a method with unillustrated minors by learning the numerology of the numbers and then putting it with the essence of the suits. So you have to learn or make a cheat sheet and decide on the meaning of each suit and number and then you combine them.

 

for example 2 of Cups with no image

 

2's in numerology mean balance, choices, partnerships, decisions. The numbers in tarot evolve upwards to a completion. So 2 is also a partial success after the starting out 1.

Cups are water in the elements, it's emotions, love, feelings, connections, artistic and creativity. It's thinking with your heart in decision making before your heart and being lead by your feelings or intuition on something.

 

you then change this to what you reading theme or question is.

 

 

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

I've seen some people use a method with unillustrated minors by learning the numerology of the numbers and then putting it with the essence of the suits.

Yes, number and suit. I think that's one of the most common methods. It's very easy because you only have to remember meanings for the suits plus A-K. So 18 meanings for Tarot Minors, 17 for playing cards. Dawn Jackson's old site had a little poem to help remember them: "An ace is beginnings and two brings exchange, three stands for growth but four does not change..." etc. Even in more fleshed out methods, you see echoes of that system - fours are stability, etc. It's old - it's rooted in Papus.

Jodorowsky's method is similar, it uses suit meanings and the Majors:

 

15 hours ago, Rodney said:

or you could associate the number back to the Major Arcana (so a 6 Cups would the The Lovers applied to love and the 6 Pentacles would be the Lovers applied to money).

 

Caitlin Matthews outlines various methods in her Untold Tarot. That's a good one to read if you're trying to decide what to do.

 

6 hours ago, stephanelli said:

We are a forum and everyone will have a different way of doing things so we must respect everyone's method.

 

Thanks, stephanelli. 🙂
 

5 hours ago, gregory said:

Not necessarily. There is almost always SOME degree of imagery. The way the leaves wind on the wands; the designs on the cups, But for now, use the deck you feel comfortable with anyway. IF and when TdM style calls to you - that's the time to try them.

 

Yes, Marseilles type decks have that. And some of the old Italian Tarots are downright ornate. 🙂

But even without that, you have a visual pattern. The fours, for instance, are arranged in a rectangle. They not only stand for stability according to number, they can describe objects. Four of Coins/Diamonds might be: "Financial stability, financial papers, rented property, a license, certificate, ticket, bank account, strongbox, checkbook, wallet, jewelry box. An office, a desk." You can see that a number of these are rectangular objects. Four of Cups/Hearts on the other hand, can be: "Emotional stability, partnership, marriage, four posts of the marriage bed. Physical union, sexual contact, relationship between two people. the return of a lover, mending of a broken friendship. Party, having fun. A bed, a sofa, a comfortable chair." Again, the four corners of the bed, sofa or chair. 😉 Those are from here, by the way. It's an excellent resource and it works well with Tarot, you just have to add Knight meanings: https://artofcartomancy.blogspot.com/

 

8 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

I got that impression on other forums, but it's entirely possible I assumed that a few people's comments were indicative of many. (I don't want to stray off the OP's topic here, but that's the gist.)

 

Well I think if you're good with Hermetic Qabalah, it would be a very effective method to use. There's no single method with these pip decks, except in cases where they're designed to be used with a particular method (like Picard's deck) in which case they become illustrated, lol. That one is BUSY:

 

But anything with little or no imagery other than the suit symbols is fair game to read as you like. I wouldn't use RWS meanings, since it would defeat the purpose of using a pip deck. You might as well just use RWS. But even if you end up doing that, it's your choice.

 

You just have to find what works for you. Read some books, try things out. 🙂
 

Edited December 2, 2021 by katrinka

[RunningWild]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Yes, number and suit. I think that's one of the most common methods. It's very easy because you only have to remember meanings for the suits plus A-K. So 18 meanings for Tarot Minors, 17 for playing cards. Dawn Jackson's old site had a little poem to help remember them: "An ace is beginnings and two brings exchange, three stands for growth but four does not change..." etc. Even in more fleshed out methods, you see echoes of that system - fours are stability, etc. It's old - it's rooted in Papus.

 

That's from the Hedgewitch Cartomancy system, isn't it?  I didn't know her name.

 

That would be a good one to use with non-illustrated pips as long as one could manage to swap out the suits of playing cards compared to a tarot deck.

 

I've known people who taught themselves tarot with non illustrated pips and over time, with self study and no internet, they're remarkably close to standard/acceptable meanings.  There is also a certain amount of freedom in the interpretations because you don't get stuck with the illustration, or memorized keywords, in your head.  And as time goes on, you'll notice more and more in the cards. 

 

Tarot is a forever learning process, IMO, with so much variety that I'll never look at a deck of cards the same way again.  Enjoy the journey.

[katrinka]

Yes, the old Hedgewytchery site. I never agreed that 7's were necessarily troubles - I think she oversimplified a bit - but overall it was pretty solid.

[Newpath]

This is why I bought a Rider Waite deck. It got far too complicated. I will go back to it when I feel like I’m ready. I might even end up using it with only the cards with images!

[DanielJUK]

Take it in your own time @Newpath

Think of this as advanced challenge after first learning RWS 

[Newpath]

6 minutes ago, DanielJUK said:

Take it in your own time @Newpath

Think of this as advanced challenge after first learning RWS 

Thanks for the advice! 😊