Article about Tarot Cards Are Having A Moment With Help From Pandemic

[devin]

18 hours ago, Wildcard said:

On 12/15/2021 at 8:31 AM, devin said:

The astro column is kinda what I'm talking about

Anyway, it was very late when I wrote that (and I was in a bad mood).... so don't hold me to it! 🙂 

Ah, okay. Respected. 😅

 

You civility is noted and appreciated.

 

19 hours ago, Aoife said:

but the sitter’s intuitive reaction to the cards is equally important in determining the route the reading takes. It does mean though that I can’t use Thoth for these readings, and TdM only when the sitter is conversant with TdM. 

 

I've done this a few times with the TdM and been pleasantly surprised with just how intuitively people with no prior knowledge can sometimes grok the cards as defining their situations.

 

Two examples spring to mind. One, a sitter picked out Strength, seeing the woman as rolling up her sleeves, ready to get the job done herself.

 

 

Two, the sun was chosen to represent what the sitter needed from her relationship. The tenderness in the hand placements struck a chord here.

 

 

15 hours ago, katrinka said:

This is one of those things where we really need better words. We use "predictive" as a kind of shorthand for traditional and nontherapeutic.
I do look into the present, but it's to see what's going on behind the scenes.

 

This is a very good point. I wonder if 'traditional' wouldn't be a better catchall? It's broad enough not to be too limiting but definitely sets one apart from your average TiKToker.

 

I also wonder if some young readers just don't know it's even possible to read the cards in any other way than the self-help or affirmation model? When I was trying (and failing) to do some paid readings on Twitter, I threw out a few freebies that were taken up by young readers with their own micro Tarot businesses (more successful than my own, might I add). They were absolutely astounded by receiving a mid level reading that actually dealt in specifics. Seriously, they were flabbergasted. 

 

 

[devin]

On 12/15/2021 at 10:32 AM, gregory said:

 NO - within the last two years, for one, they did an excellent article on Leonora Carrington if you count that.

 

I think Jodorowsky claims Carrington as one of his spiritual mentors.

 

On 12/15/2021 at 10:32 AM, gregory said:

and someone cited it as evidence that they had it in  for Pollack - who was unlucky enough to get sucked into something decidedly suss. There's nothing wrong with her book or the deck itself, but the hype used tarnished everyone involved..

 

The controversies surrounding the Dali deck's PR was a little before my time (I was 5 years old in '87). And you make a good point about being tarnished by association. Still,  I'd be quite surprised if Pollack was such a shameless cold reader. And if she was, surely she wouldn't be so bad at it? 

[devin]

9 hours ago, Wildcard said:

With 'traditional', there's a chance to go down a rabbit hole with hornets nests - which tradition? Adhering to what? Whom's interpretation? And what do you do if some things just work different for you?

And so forth - that field is scorched.

Look at TdM. Outside of France, traditional, oui bon. In France? Those readers are creative!

Is doing your own thing with the cards and getting it to work to be considered as "traditional", then?

Somehow, it feels that question just opens up yet another bucket.

 

I agree. To divide the traditional from the not on grounds of technique would be difficult. Perhaps we would have to draw a line at approximately the year 1900 and leave it at that?

 

But I was talking less about method and more about area of enquiry. Despite the Oracle of Delphi having 'know thyself' inscribed at its entrance, there is no question that by far the greatest historical use for divination has been in the investigation and prediction of external circumstances and events. Whereas the modern trend in divination is to use the cards as a tool for the investigation of the self. What some might call the therapeutic model: self help, personal development, brainstorming, affirmation, etc.

 

The above developments are perfectly in keeping with the general thrust of recent history. The same thrust that saw demons and daemons becoming egos and ids.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Edited December 17, 2021 by devin

[Aoife]

On 12/15/2021 at 7:02 PM, katrinka said:

This is one of those things where we really need better words. We use "predictive" as a kind of shorthand for traditional and nontherapeutic.
I do look into the present, but it's to see what's going on behind the scenes.

I agree we need to find new words, but also a discussion about the ideas behind the words?

 

I agree that predictive readings are widely held to be the norm, but the label 'traditional' also implies 'unchanging' and I do think that tarot reading evolves. 

 

Katrinka, similar to the way that you feel maligned by ignorant, possibly malevolent pundits, I also feel irritated by their cavalier use of 'therapeutic'. Its become a catch-all, a stereotype.

If, broadly-speaking 'therapeutic' is a response to 'dis-ease', is that not a common, maybe even the usual state of mind that people come for a reading? Something's not right, and maybe they want help to untangle thoughts and feelings... maybe they don't know why they're feeling ill at ease. By this definition your readings would surely not be 'nontherapeutic'?

But I agree that almost all sitters seek reassurance, some sense of what the future holds. So maybe its inaccurate for me to say I don't future-forecast... I do, by usually having card(s) to indicate 'likely outcome' without significant change. But my focus is to try to help the sitter understand what's at the root of their dis-ease. 

 

 

[Aoife]

On 12/16/2021 at 10:28 AM, devin said:

I've done this a few times with the TdM and been pleasantly surprised with just how intuitively people with no prior knowledge can sometimes grok the cards as defining their situations.

 

Two examples spring to mind. One, a sitter picked out Strength, seeing the woman as rolling up her sleeves, ready to get the job done herself.

 

 

Two, the sun was chosen to represent what the sitter needed from her relationship. The tenderness in the hand placements struck a chord here.

 

 

These are great, thank you!

[devin]

9 hours ago, Wildcard said:

Next up, "predictive" - there is some confusion, ain't it?

It seems that, as soon as you mention "predict", things are mystically set in stone, it will be, 'cause someone said so.

That is not a prediction, that is straight out determinism.

The weather forecast predicts, financial people do attempt to do it all day long, they bet money on it, it is called stock trade.

"Prognosticate" is another term, and no one takes offense to that.

Same with literature, for example, meanings: "This IS that." Another slate of stone.

Waite did a good job, he gave a collection to offer an overview what it (a card, here) can/could be, or, how different people/sources did assign their meanings to their cards. He's getting flamed for that till today!

Is it that because we deal in something relatively vague that we search for an iron pole to grab unto in the darkness, or why do only a minority of authors bother to say "for me, it is this"? And even fewer encourage the reader to differ, in a healthy way - especially weird when you think about how oh so super similar people are to each other...

 

Interesting stuff.... and another dividing line.... I'll get back to you!

Edited December 17, 2021 by devin

[katrinka]

27 minutes ago, devin said:

I agree. To divide the traditional from the not on grounds of technique would be difficult. Perhaps we would have to draw a line at approximately the year 1900 and leave it at that?

 

I would say more mid-20th century. You really don't see anyone pushing nonpredictive/therapeutic/whatever prior to the 70's or so. There might be something from the 60's...but I'm not aware of earlier sources.
 

[katrinka]

31 minutes ago, Aoife said:

I agree that predictive readings are widely held to be the norm, but the label 'traditional' also implies 'unchanging' and I do think that tarot reading evolves. 

 

Traditions evolve. They're adapted to keep up with the times. That's part of the reason why we see things like LED candles.

A living tradition evolves. It accommodates the era. The candles, oil lamps, and butter lamps are still in use, but some have chosen to take candle light bulbs, and, more recently, LEDs on board. They aren't out there trying to discredit or libel the people who don't use them. Nobody will accuse you of "hooey" or "playing on peoples' fears" for lighting a candle.

A tradition can "stretch" and still remain intact. There are some interesting examples in Lenormand. The Rider card shows a well-dressed man on a horse moving along at a fast clip. As time went on, the card took on the meaning of vehicles in general. But when someone produces a deck with the Rider shown on a motorcycle, some other meanings like "feet, knees, and ligaments" are lost. The Rider is best left on a horse.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

31 minutes ago, Aoife said:

Katrinka, similar to the way that you feel maligned by ignorant, possibly malevolent pundits, I also feel irritated by their cavalier use of 'therapeutic'. Its become a catch-all, a stereotype.

 

I think the term du jour is "wellness model." Not sure how you feel about that one.
 

31 minutes ago, Aoife said:

If, broadly-speaking 'therapeutic' is a response to 'dis-ease', is that not a common, maybe even the usual state of mind that people come for a reading? Something's not right, and maybe they want help to untangle thoughts and feelings... maybe they don't know why they're feeling ill at ease. By this definition your readings would surely not be 'nontherapeutic'?

 

A person may well be relieved if the cards say things are not as bad as they think. But that's quite different from telling people they have mommy issues or whatever.
 

31 minutes ago, Aoife said:

But I agree that almost all sitters seek reassurance, some sense of what the future holds. So maybe its inaccurate for me to say I don't future-forecast... I do, by usually having card(s) to indicate 'likely outcome' without significant change. But my focus is to try to help the sitter understand what's at the root of their dis-ease.

 

Some outcomes are "likely, without significant change." Others are unavoidable. Would you tell a sitter with a loved one in hospice that death is "likely, without significant change"? OTOH, if the house smells musty, you can clean it and air it out. Some things can be changed, others can't. That ought to be common sense. We're not the ones saying all predictions are unchangeable. That's just more absurd libel from the people seeking to discredit us. "Fate vs. free will" is a false dichotomy.

[Aoife]

23 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I think the term du jour is "wellness model." Not sure how you feel about that one.

 

Hype... a money-making idea... arising from the notion that people can be fixed, worse still, should be fixed.

 

28 minutes ago, katrinka said:

A person may well be relieved if the cards say things are not as bad as they think. But that's quite different from telling people they have mommy issues or whatever.

That would be bizarre.

The sitter - a woman, past the first flush of youth, nervous. I can't remember the exact spread but (RWS) 6 of Cups, Judgement, The Devil in an occluded position, 3 of Cups - there were other cards but it was these that caused me to see childhood abuse and a betrayal by a woman. It was a tarot reading not therapy. I didn't tell her what I 'saw', she unravelled that for herself. I believe that there was some resolution to whatever brought her to sit. It probably wouldn't have changed how she felt, but the opportunity to talk, to hypothesise, maybe to confirm her thoughts, feelings, intentions was the therapeutic component. I have no idea whether the reading had any effect on future outcome, whether it changed anything for her. I don't do advice.

I have a powerful aversion to the notion of 'advice'... too many times my hackles would rise reading advice given by posters at AT too fond of the sound of their own 'voice'.  

47 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Some outcomes are "likely, without significant change." Others are unavoidable. Would you tell a sitter with a loved one in hospice that death is "likely, without significant change"? OTOH, if the house smells musty, you can clean it and air it out. Some things can be changed, others can't. That ought to be common sense. We're not the ones saying all predictions are unchangeable. That's just more absurd libel from the people seeking to discredit us. "Fate vs. free will" is a false dichotomy.

This is where you leave me behind.  I don't have the confidence in my abilities to be so sure. If however the sitter says "that doesn't look good, does it?" I would agree... and then stay silent. I suspect that silence is an under-utilised skill... although I suspect that's harder for professionals for obvious reasons. 

[katrinka]

20 minutes ago, Aoife said:

Hype... a money-making idea... arising from the notion that people can be fixed, worse still, should be fixed.

 

Yes. There's a certain arrogance to it: "All the people who come to me are messed up."
A kind of contempt, really.
 

20 minutes ago, Aoife said:

That would be bizarre.

The sitter - a woman, past the first flush of youth, nervous. I can't remember the exact spread but (RWS) 6 of Cups, Judgement, The Devil in an occluded position, 3 of Cups - there were other cards but it was these that caused me to see childhood abuse and a betrayal by a woman. It was a tarot reading not therapy. I didn't tell her what I 'saw', she unravelled that for herself. I believe that there was some resolution to whatever brought her to sit. It probably wouldn't have changed how she felt, but the opportunity to talk, to hypothesise, maybe to confirm her thoughts, feelings, intentions was the therapeutic component. I have no idea whether the reading had any effect on future outcome, whether it changed anything for her. I don't do advice.

I have a powerful aversion to the notion of 'advice'... too many times my hackles would rise reading advice given by posters at AT too fond of the sound of their own 'voice'.  

This is where you leave me behind.  I don't have the confidence in my abilities to be so sure. If however the sitter says "that doesn't look good, does it?" I would agree... and then stay silent. I suspect that silence is an under-utilised skill... although I suspect that's harder for professionals for obvious reasons. 

 

Exactly. We have to stay neutral. The advice is only implied in the reading: if the cards say the sitter is on thin ice at work, of course they should be at least start considering other options. It goes without saying. But some people will stop reading completely and start talking about what they think the sitter would be good at, job fairs, resumes, etc. etc.

 

And I've seen readings like the ones you mentioned. The reader will often start moralizing like Moses coming down off the mountain: "He won't leave his wife for you..." If that's what the cards say, fine. But they might not: sometimes men do leave their wives for other women. We need to stick to what's on the table even if it runs counter to what we think we know.

Edited December 17, 2021 by katrinka

[devin]

20 hours ago, katrinka said:

I would say more mid-20th century. You really don't see anyone pushing nonpredictive/therapeutic/whatever prior to the 70's or so. There might be something from the 60's...but I'm not aware of earlier sources.

 

Wow. I didn't know it went back that far. I thought maybe 90s.

 

But I was talking there more about reading techniques, and looking for a date when things started to open up from being a handful of standard methods (big spreads and card counting, etc.) to the huge diversity we have today. 

 

19 hours ago, katrinka said:

But that's quite different from telling people they have mommy issues or whatever.

 

Don't pick on Jodo. The man's a legend. 🙂

 

Are you feeling better yet?

 

20 hours ago, Wildcard said:

Nice one, Delphi. That is a classic.

And: Prediction (in the sense that word is described, so not determinism) at it's best:

"If you cross that river with your army, you will destroy a great kingdom". Note the "If ... will ..." And the result: The great kingdom which got destroyed was the kingdom of the dude crossing the river with his army.

Inverted: I do indeed see no problem with it - the exclusion of certain questions (mostly the "what will happen" kind) and thereafter the labeling thereof in a dissmissive way, that feels problematic. Somehow, like... The Tarot is a tool to answer questions (whatever they might be) - and then there are camps who divide the source into god and devil?

 

I'm not sure looking to the classical world for arguments against determinism is a winning strategy.

 

Anyway, I've been trying to think this through.

 

Stock market and weather forecasting work (or not) by attempting to follow a chain of cause and effect to predict the future from current and past events. If Tarot works the same, somehow getting a holistic view of present circumstances and then, again somehow, working forward to predict the likely outcome, then it's predictions would be changeable, adjusting to shifts in circumstance.

 

If on the other hand the Tarot works by somehow getting a glimpse into the actual future, then the future wouldn't be changeable as said future would already include the Tarot reading itself and any adjustments made subsequently.

 

Of course, neither scenario contracts free will as even a future set in stone could be the result of a series of choices made freely.

 

Whatever, I need a lie down.

Edited December 18, 2021 by devin

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, devin said:

Wow. I didn't know it went back that far. I thought maybe 90s.

 

I started seeing it in the 80's, around the time they changed "occult" sections in bookstores to "new age." (It's more palatable for the squeamish that way, I suppose.)
But I mentioned that someplace, and someone gave earlier examples. I think one was a companion book for one of the old "hippie" Tarots. Probably the Aquarian or the Motherpeace, but I could be wrong.
 

3 hours ago, devin said:

But I was talking there more about reading techniques, and looking for a date when things started to open up from being a handful of standard methods (big spreads and card counting, etc.) to the huge diversity we have today. 

 

Yes, and "you have all the answers inside", "Death is transformation!" etc. The push to win people over who were scared of it and/or didn't have the capacity for study and wanted something "easy."

 

Evangelizing never ends well.
 

3 hours ago, devin said:

Don't pick on Jodo. The man's a legend. 🙂

 

Are you feeling better yet?

 

Good old Jodo, he remembered to use a bowl with air holes. 😁

Jodo gets a pass.
If Biddy does something on par with The Holy Mountain, I'll reconsider my stance. 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

Edited December 18, 2021 by katrinka

[devin]

32 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Good old Jodo, he remembered to use a bowl with air holes.

 

Thank you. Laugh of the week. Definitively. 👍

[Wyrdkiss]

Pretty typical article slanted once again towards mainstream religious readers.  Many of the above comments nailed the other aspects that irked me.

 

Lipstick is cute IMO

 

and yes @katrinka, Holy Mountain is amazing!

Edited December 18, 2021 by Wyrdkiss
props to an important film!

[gregory]

14 hours ago, Wyrdkiss said:

and yes @katrinka, Holy Mountain is amazing!

 

I am worried about the treatment of the toads....

[katrinka]

They blew them up for real. It was a jerk move.
 

[gregory]

In that case - well, I was never WILD about Jodo's tarot methods - but that is beyond the pale.

 

Still I have to say the movie was riveting.

[devin]

4 hours ago, gregory said:

I am worried about the treatment of the toads....

 

Yes. And I'm not actually that big a fan of his movies or the whole theatre of cruelty thing. In theory, it's interesting. In practice.... 🤮

 

Though I have read Jodo say he's a very different person now, would never harm an animal, and is, I think, a vegetarian.

[katrinka]

I've said it elsewhere: Jodo is brilliant at what he does, but he "ain't wrapped too tight."
He said he was trying to bring awareness to the treatment of the Aztecs at the hands of the Spaniards. But he's preaching to the choir in most cases, and as for the rest, well, I've never heard of any racists being reformed by viewing it. It's just cruel and childish, like mean little boys blowing up frogs with firecrackers.

[gregory]

3 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I've said it elsewhere: Jodo is brilliant at what he does, but he "ain't wrapped too tight."
He said he was trying to bring awareness to the treatment of the Aztecs at the hands of the Spaniards. But he's preaching to the choir in most cases, and as for the rest, well, I've never heard of any racists being reformed by viewing it. It's just cruel and childish, like mean little boys blowing up frogs with firecrackers.

 

And makes him look as bad as the Spanish abusers of the Aztecs. Two wrongs never make a right.

[katrinka]

42 minutes ago, devin said:

 

Though I have read Jodo say he's a very different person now, would never harm an animal, and is, I think, a vegetarian.

He's been vegetarian for as long as anyone can remember. Even when he was killing animals in films, he was vegetarian. This is an interesting piece from 1972:

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1972/1/12/luncheon-with-jodorowsky-charcoal-broiled-and-medium-rare/
 

Immediately, someone asks why the film features so much blood (for El Topo does for bloodbaths what Claudette Colbert did for milk)., Jodorowsky, who's' anticipated the attack, has practised his defense: "I will kill any animal you eat in all my pictures. I do not kill dog or cat. I can kill chicken. I cannot have 10,000 rabbits stampede they tell me, so I say I want 300 rabbits dead. How many cows do you kill a day? 80,000 a day? One million? Finish with the hamburgers and I will finish to kill animals. It is essential to show how you are criminals. First, you must live human beings. Then give food to dogs."

 

He has mellowed somewhat with age though. These days he's an interesting old man. Back then he was someone I wouldn't want to be left alone with.
Maybe he was yanking peoples' chains with this rape statement. Or maybe he really did it and he's only walking it back after seeing people like Bill Cosby go to prison decades after the fact. We'll never know.
https://www.artforum.com/news/alejandro-jodorowsky-speaks-out-after-el-museo-del-barrio-calls-off-retrospective-78538

 

29 minutes ago, gregory said:

And makes him look as bad as the Spanish abusers of the Aztecs. Two wrongs never make a right.

 

I wouldn't say that killing a group of toads and horned lizards is an atrocity on the scale of genocide, but it's still an atrocity. And I can agree that it does NOT make a right.

Edited December 19, 2021 by katrinka

[gregory]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Jodorowsky, who's' anticipated the attack, has practised his defense: "I will kill any animal you eat in all my pictures. I do not kill dog or cat. I can kill chicken

 

People eat toads ? Who knew....

[katrinka]

He might be confusing them with frogs.
It doesn't explain the horned lizards, though.

[gregory]

He's half French, isn't he ? He should know his froggies...

[devin]

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

Maybe he was yanking peoples' chains with this rape statement. Or maybe he really did it and he's only walking it back after seeing people like Bill Cosby go to prison decades after the fact. We'll never know.

 

Yeah. As far as I know no one has made any allegations. And many of his statements from the era were clearly shock tactics.