Circle in the crown of "LA JUSTICE"

[Guest]

Hello everyone,

 

this is my first post on this forum.

 

I have a question regarding of famous circle in the crown of "La Justice" card. While comparing cards on the wonderful website – https://www.tarot-de-marseille-heritage.com – I have found out that some historical decks like of Claude Burdel (1751), Jean-Pierre Laurent (1731) and earlier one from Pierre Madenie (1709) have in the crowns of the 8th cards of their decks a dot (is it a dot?) in a rhombus which is inside of a circle.
I see that Wilfried Houdouin is also following this tradition.

Can anyone share knowledge about this interesting detail which is portraited differently in the different decks?

Thanks,
Lezarni

[WizardintheWoods]

Some might say that Justice has a Third Eye. 

[fire cat pickles]

It depends on what method you use. If you're using the "eye rhymes" method, where you're readings come from a visual free low of information to construct your story from the images, then you would want to see what it is you can use in the cards to get meaning from them: a rhombus, a third eye, a pie plate, or a flying saucer, whatever can help with your reading.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by fire cat pickles

[Decan]

Hmm, a 3dr eye is a chakra, I'm not sure that the people who drew these cards had really chakras in mind (if I can say this 😁 ), it's more something contemporary.

I took a look at the Justice card in the Pierre Madenié (Tarot Heritage website) and the dot isn't located between the eyes or in the middle of the forehead, but higher. Wouldn't it be possible that it is just an ornament of her crown, nothing more?

In the the Marseille the cards aren't too atmospherical IMO, it's better to read them from their meanings, but of course it's as well how I see this topic, so...

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Decan

[katrinka]

6 hours ago, Decan said:

Hmm, a 3dr eye is a chakra, I'm not sure that the people who drew these cards had really chakras in mind (if I can say this 😁 ), it's more something contemporary.

 

Exactly. It's an Eastern concept from religions like Hinduism. At the time that TdM was developed, Europe was only interested in colonizing, trading for spices, and making money.
I'm guessing that the Indian people weren't particularly interested in teaching them in those days, either. One has only to look at Tipu's Tiger... 🤣 And I really can't blame India. Colonization is horrible. You don't really start seeing any interest or exchange of ideas until the 19th century, AFAIK.

 

I always just thought of that thing as a jewel in the crown. A lot of old crowns sport a large central jewel. I wouldn't advise being sidetracked by it, but if one must impute some meaning to it, clarity of thought seems to fit.

Edited January 22, 2022 by katrinka
typo gremlin

[WizardintheWoods]

Since we are talking esoteric subject matter it is possible, okay I agree perhaps not plausible, that third eye and general chakra info was shared. For a jewel to be there would make sense, if that person were of noble descent, jeweled judges roaming the streets of Italy sounds like a plethora of troubles to me 😀

[Decan]

What is interesting though is that if you consider it is a third eye, the idea of "clarity of mind" could apply I think, just like a jewel in a crown could symbolize this 🙂

[katrinka]

55 minutes ago, WizardintheWoods said:

Since we are talking esoteric subject matter it is possible, okay I agree perhaps not plausible, that third eye and general chakra info was shared.

 

No, the odds don't really oppose the idea that some eccentric white guy out of all the Europeans in India was curious, and found someone gracious enough to explain a few things.
Whether this teaching made it to the cardmakers in Marseilles, and whether they'd bother incorporating it into their decks is what's extremely unlikely.
 

55 minutes ago, WizardintheWoods said:

For a jewel to be there would make sense, if that person were of noble descent, jeweled judges roaming the streets of Italy sounds like a plethora of troubles to me 😀

 

She's crowned. Make of that what you will.

[gregory]

It's a crown. With a jewel in it. Where did the idea that it was an eye even come from ?

[katrinka]

2 minutes ago, gregory said:

It's a crown. With a jewel in it. Where did the idea that it was an eye even come from ?

 

The Illuminati? 🤣

 

[WizardintheWoods]

The Way of Tarot by Jodorowsky is where I read it and remember it from. Page 171 or there abouts.  I won’t go into it but I thought his point was quite interesting and fun actually. I am the first to say a lot of his thoughts are a bit out there and the large grain of salt is needed. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by WizardintheWoods

[katrinka]

15 minutes ago, WizardintheWoods said:

I am the first to say a lot of his thoughts are a bit out there and the large grain of salt is needed.

Precisely. 😁

[WizardintheWoods]

Still fun though 😂

[katrinka]

Yes. The number and suit stuff is useful. The rest is, well, entertaining. 😁

[gregory]

41 minutes ago, WizardintheWoods said:

The Way of Tarot by Jodorowsky is where I read it and remember it from. Page 171 or there abouts.  I won’t go into it but I thought his point was quite interesting and fun actually. I am the first to say a lot of his thoughts are a bit out there and the large grain of salt is needed. 

 

25 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Precisely. 😁

 

Oh crap; I shall go and get mine out. but yes, bit of a nutter.

[WizardintheWoods]

@gregory, Don’t go crazy as it is not so much a huge point as what I found to be a fun one. When I was going through Playing Marseille by Ryan Edward he mentioned it and that is where I first saw it. Yes that is not strictly a by the book TdM but I do use it as my main TdM deck so I see that third eye all the time and it sticks with me.

[gregory]

No - I meant I must just look and see what on EARTH Jodo said there... his weirdities (my new word, copyright, only just thought of it !) fascinate me.

[WizardintheWoods]

I do like that new word 🥸

[gregory]

RATS it's in the urban dic.

 

I am officially peeved.

[katrinka]

"Jodoisms" isn't, and it works nearly as well.

[gregory]

But doesn't quite convey the nuttiness....The deep STRANGENESS....

[gregory]

"Placed on her crown LIKE a third eye." Q.E.D.  'Tisn't one, just LOOKS like one.

 

Darn, not weird enough.

[fratermaitri]

Hi Lezarni,

 

Most crowns have several small gems around it and a big one on the front, while others just the big one on the front. In the tarot decks that you mentioned, this gem is drawn as a figure known in sacred geometry as an octahedron, which symbolizes the element of air, associated with the intellect. The octahedron is sometimes used in rituals to banish unwanted forces. In Witch's Shield by Christopher Penczak, it is used as a psychic shield. So either the artist of these tarot decks wanted the justice card to symbolize intellectual justice or protection related to justice, or the artist just drew the gem in that shape because these are sometimes cut like that.

 

Peace,

Frater Maitri

[katrinka]

3 minutes ago, fratermaitri said:

In the tarot decks that you mentioned, this gem is drawn as a figure known in sacred geometry as an octahedron

 

Um, no.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octahedron

 

It's got facets around it. It's an old gem cut, nothing more.

[katrinka]

46 minutes ago, gregory said:

"Placed on her crown LIKE a third eye." Q.E.D.  'Tisn't one, just LOOKS like one.

 

Darn, not weird enough.

 

That's OK. I don't want him doing more stuff with frogs and horned toads.