Thoth deck... Thought, experience and feelings please.

[Barleywine]

3 hours ago, Aeon418 said:

 

I'm beginning to feel the same way about the trilogy of Thoth Tarot books written by Marcus Katz. (Although "must" might be a little too strong.) I'm currently on my second read through and am impressed how he manages to be so accessible and readable, while remaining very faithful to the original source material written by Crowley. That's no mean feat.

I've been curious about the Katz books; I've have to see if they're available on Kindle. I'm acquainted with Marcus online and respect his knowledge and experience but always thought he was "RWS-centric,"

[Aeon418]

4 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

I've been curious about the Katz books; I've have to see if they're available on Kindle. I'm acquainted with Marcus online and respect his knowledge and experience but always thought he was "RWS-centric,"

 

The books are available on Kindle. In fact I own them on Kindle and physical book format.

Be aware that there is a small issue with the Kindle version of Book 1. If you use the reader tab to display the contents you will notice that some of the chapters 'appear' to be missing. But in actual fact everything is in order. The contents page included within the e-book is complete and correct, with links to every chapter.

 

Unfortunately the physical versions of the books are print-on-demand paperbacks. Sometimes the quality of such books leaves a lot to be desired, with very stiff binding causing pages to fall out. Fortunately for me, all my physical copies are very soft and pliable. Maybe I got lucky.    

[Natural Mystic Guide]

2 hours ago, Nemia said:

Okay, I said too much already

Fascinating and thanks for sharing.  You cannot say too much.  Your perspective, too, is unique and valuable.

[Natural Mystic Guide]

2 hours ago, Nemia said:

There are a number of things I dislike about Crowley

I have yet to purchase and work with a Thoth deck.  There are things that I find anathema about Crowley -- as a person.  Plus...  how he has twisted Jewish Kabbalah.  I just cannot go there.  I'm respect your views and I'm so glad that it works for you.  Thanks for taking the time to show us these different ways of looking at cards within the deck.  Very very interesting.

[Tarotnewbie]

On 2/19/2024 at 11:28 AM, pacificwaters said:

I just chanced upon this thread. I am so happy to know that you too have started with this deck. How is your experience with the Thoth? 

Hi @pacificwaters to be honest I am overwhelmed by the sheer amount of info each card has to offer. I don’t know when i will be ready to read off of this deck. I need a lot of practice. I was thinking of offering 3 card readings for feedback… also thinking of partnering up with someone who would be interested in studying this deck and doing practice readings. I am slightly tight on time, so haven’t gotten to post the request yet. If you don’t mind partnering up, please let me know. I would really be thrilled to practice this deck with you 😊. No force, no pressure. Just asked if you have the interest and band width. 🙏🏼 

[Flegetanis]

22 hours ago, Nemia said:

Another thing I dislike about Crowley is his tendency to grandiosity and his misogynist view of the feminine side of the world (or what is traditionally seen as feminine side). Generations of thinkers defined the feminine principle as dark, negative, passive, corrupting. Okay, that's how it is, I don't have to adopt that view. We all have limitations imposed on us by our cultural background and personality. You see it in his interpretation of Netzach, the realm of Venus. It's not difficult to integrate the shadow and light side and to get a more well-rounded view of these sephirah or cards Crowley tends to see as less valuable.

*****

 

Living every day with the Hebrew language, there are some GD ideas that will always puzzle me. The disconnection of Hebrew letters (which are also numbers) from the numerical values of the majors is counter-intuitive and feels wrong. How can bet mean One? Bet is and will always be Two. But the Hebrew letters are not used for counting in the deck anyway, otherwise they'd continue after Ten with yud-alef, yud-bet etc. It's a symbolic association and I can live with it. 

 

Knowing Hebrew, it also disturbs me to read words like Geburah which are impossible in Hebrew. It's Gvurah. It's against the basic rules of Hebrew to have a double letter like bet in the first syllable of a three-syllable word. (It must be a vet and the e turns into a shva). That mistake didn't start with Crowley, it simply shows that some early translators of Hebrew texts didn't have a complete grasp of the language, and I have made my peace with that. (I always write Gvurah 😉 ). Nobody is perfect, but the Thoth as a deck is as nearly perfect as it's possible for any human undertaking to be. 

*****

 

You may find it interesting for example to take out all the cards associated with one planet and put them together. 

 

I had to break up the quote a bit, but you make a few interesting points.

 

First of all, I just hate the Minor Arcana in the whole Golden Dawn/RWS/Thoth system. A major part of this is the idea, completely unfounded in any source I know of, is that the sfirot of the Right & Left Pillars are somehow imbalanced, and therefore weak or less sustained. Add to that the ridiculous oversimplification of the significance of each sfirah down to just an astrological planetary influence. I've had some stupid arguments with people over statements from Gikatilla or the RaMCha"L that Hermeticists insisted were Qabalistically false because they didn't fall neatly into the idea that Tiferet is all Dying Gods, or that everything related to Gevurah must be traumatic &/or violent, because the sfirah is equated with Mars, or similar dogmatic insistences.

*****

 

As for the abuse of Hebrew in occult studies, just don't bother getting upset about it. It's too far gone, and every step forward is knocked two steps back. For some reason, the Qabalah is the one cultural discipline that it's totally OK to appropriate.

*****

 

The groupings you made, by planet & element, etc., are the key to many Tarot decks, particularly the Thoth & other Thelemic decks. It's an important feature of the Tabula Mundi Tarot, as well. This sort of contemplation is also good prep for a game of Qabalistic 8s.

[Rose Lalonde]

The Thoth and especially Tabula Mundi (faithful to the Thoth) are my reading decks. The astrological correspondences highlight the connections between cards in ways that make a reading flow. It helps that I'm a fan of the As above, so below theme the deck inherited from the Golden Dawn Society. Crowley himself is not always my favorite, but I also think he put more thought into the GD system than even the GD did. Whether you want to use that system or not is another question. If you do, it's hard to look past the Thoth. The RWS owes a great deal to that system too, but is more opaque about it.

 

The Thoth used the physical acts involved in creating children and bringing them to term as a metaphor for the creation of all things in the universe, for division and eventual reintegration into union as One. Knowing that explains a lot. e.g. It's why the Thoth Knights are a quick one-and-done, while the Queens gestate over time. It's why reintegration in androgynous Art (Temperance) has both sexes in one being. I think of the metaphor as simply a way to point toward what the deck is trying to say about all kinds of creative acts, universal and personal, and not as gender roles. Both quick action and long-term nurturing are of course something everyone is capable of.  

Edited February 21, 2024 by Rose Lalonde

[Misterei]

I don't read with Thoth ... but I studied it for years and I'm glad of it.

 

I AM a Crowley fan. We're not allowed to say that in Tarot circles. We can like Thoth but we must hate Crowley. *sigh*

Was he a deeply flawed human being? Yes. But he also left us a legacy of occultism and Tarot cards that are -- at least in part-- divinely inspired.

 

Ahem. Back to the topic ... I don't read with the deck b/c I find it "too Thelema". I prefer my decks more neutral ... with less of an agenda. One reason i like older historic decks. That being said ... some cards he & Frida Harris just got it RIGHT. So much better than GD or RWS.

 

I feel this way about Art #14. When I think of the true esoteric meaning of the Temperance card ... I always think of the Art card more than the traditional Temperance images. I don't care for #20 Aeon ... but THANK YOU Crowley & Harris for finally getting the Christianity out of that card. That card was about the immortality of fame and the Christian imagery was just there to keep the Church happy ... and we've been stuck with drawings of animated corpses ever since. Ugh!

 

I personally like DuQuette's book. To me, even if you don't like Crowley and even if you don't read with the deck ... it's worth study as part of our Tarot heritage. There's a lot in Thoth that's utter nonsense to me ... but the parts that hit? Worth slogging through the crap to find those gems.

Edited February 22, 2024 by Misterei

[Flegetanis]

16 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

The Thoth used the physical acts involved in creating children and bringing them to term as a metaphor for the creation of all things in the universe, for division and eventual reintegration into union as One. Knowing that explains a lot. e.g. It's why the Thoth Knights are a quick one-and-done, while the Queens gestate over time. It's why reintegration in androgynous Art (Temperance) has both sexes in one being. I think of the metaphor as simply a way to point toward what the deck is trying to say about all kinds of creative acts, universal and personal, and not as gender roles. Both quick action and long-term nurturing are of course something everyone is capable of.  

 

I constantly have to explain to my students that it's not that everything in Magick is sexual, but that the physical act ("As Below") is actually the symbol, representing - in manifestation - a much higher & subtler process comparable to the fertilization of the ovum in the womb by a single spermatozoon among millions. 

Sexual symbolism isn't about sex, sex itself is the most physical, outer manifestation.

 

[Misterei]

3 hours ago, Flegetanis said:

I constantly have to explain to my students that it's not that everything in Magick is sexual, but that the physical act ("As Below") is actually the symbol, representing - in manifestation - a much higher & subtler process ...

And then there's the whole Alchemical Marriage / kundalini thing. Hidden in Renaissance art. Somewhat veiled in RWS. Openly alluded to in Thoth.

Edited February 22, 2024 by Misterei

[Aeon418]

4 hours ago, Flegetanis said:

Sexual symbolism isn't about sex, sex itself is the most physical, outer manifestation.

 

I agree. The Thoth Tarot is ultimately based on a Thelemic view of the universe that sees all of existence as the continual interplay between two divine principles that Crowley personified as the gods Nuit and Hadit. The outpouring Will of the infinite within ourselves (Hadit) desires to constantly unite with the infinite without (Nuit) through the ongoing realization of experiences in time that we call Life.

 

Within the sphere of mundane human experience the most direct mirroring of this ongoing cosmic process is the sexual act. The implication of this is that sex itself has cosmological significance. But to the extent that we don't see this greater significance, sexual symbolism only ever seems to point straight to the gutter. In this way the Thoth Tarot acts like the perfect magic mirror that reflects our sexual hang ups and neuroses right back at us. How embarrassing! A typical response to this discomfort is to blame 'dirty man' Crowley and his obsession with sex. This is unfortunate. While Crowley may, in a certain sense, have been obsessed with sex, there is a distinct lack of awareness of the cosmological significance that Crowley saw in sex. In part this is due to a reticence to explore the Thelemic worldview and spiritual path that informs the Thoth Tarot. A spiritual path of progressive opening up and eventual surrender to the Universe that mirrors the very human act of sexual surrender, provided we're capable of seeing this.

 

   “The world of Magic is a mirror, wherein who sees muck is muck.” — Aleister Crowley.    

Edited February 22, 2024 by Aeon418

[Rose Lalonde]

44 minutes ago, Aeon418 said:

But to the extent that we don't see this greater significance, sexual symbolism only ever seems to point straight to the gutter.

It's like that Zen saying about someone pointing to show us the moon, but we can mistakenly fixate on their finger and never look up. 

[Aeon418]

53 minutes ago, Rose Lalonde said:

It's like that Zen saying about someone pointing to show us the moon, but we can mistakenly fixate on their finger and never look up. 

 

Yes. I think the Thoth Tarot's Devil card is a graphic illustration of this. To the extent that we are obsessed by the appearance of things, we fail to see (with the open third eye) the real inner significance or wholeness (Pan - All) of what we are experiencing.

 

As Lon Milo DuQuette says in his Thoth book (p.138): " .... the Devil is just God as misunderstood by the ignorant and wicked." This "wicked ignorance" is what the Buddhists would recognize as Avidya or that fundamental misconception of reality that binds us to suffering and the Wheel of Samsara. But that very same Wheel is indicated on the Devil card itself by the Rings of Saturn.

 

Quote

It is further to be remarked that the trunk of the Tree pierces the heavens; about it is indicated the ring of the body of Nuith. Similarly, the shaft of the Wand goes down indefinitely to the centre of earth.

“If I lift up my head, I and my Nuit are one. If I droop down mine head, and shoot forth venom, then is rapture of the earth, and I and the earth are one.” (AL. II, 26).

 

  In the Devil card it may appear that Crowley is indulging in a smutty joke at our expense. But in reality he is pointing to the way in which the highest understanding of reality is reflected in the most earthy aspects of human life, provided we can liberate ourselves enough to see it and thereby transform our experience of life from seemingly hellish material enslavement, to a perception that recognizes that "existence is pure joy." (AL, II:9) 

Edited February 22, 2024 by Aeon418

[Flegetanis]

9 hours ago, Aeon418 said:

  In the Devil card it may appear that Crowley is indulging in a smutty joke at our expense. But in reality he is pointing to the way in which the highest understanding of reality is reflected in the most earthy aspects of human life, provided we can liberate ourselves enough to see it and thereby transform our experience of life from seemingly hellish material enslavement, to a perception that recognizes that "existence is pure joy." (AL, II:9) 

 

I like how Crowley balances the image of this card with that of Atu XVIII: The Moon. They are both intense chthonic ["ELF"] vibrations. But, as vibrations, they are still just lower octaves of higher processes. The process isn't complete unless it is manifest on all levels. Every good tune has to have a bass line.

[Flegetanis]

11 hours ago, Aeon418 said:

[T]to the extent that we don't see this greater significance, sexual symbolism only ever seems to point straight to the gutter. In this way the Thoth Tarot acts like the perfect magic mirror that reflects our sexual hang ups and neuroses right back at us. How embarrassing! A typical response to this discomfort is to blame 'dirty man' Crowley and his obsession with sex. This is unfortunate. While Crowley may, in a certain sense, have been obsessed with sex, there is a distinct lack of awareness of the cosmological significance that Crowley saw in sex. In part this is due to a reticence to explore the Thelemic worldview and spiritual path that informs the Thoth Tarot. A spiritual path of progressive opening up and eventual surrender to the Universe that mirrors the very human act of sexual surrender, provided we're capable of seeing this.

 

   “The world of Magic is a mirror, wherein who sees muck is muck.” — Aleister Crowley.    

 

Considering he was a contemporary of Freud, I can't even say he was "obsessed" with sex in any serious sense, other than inherently knowing his own sexuality was not only natural, but Magick -- but considered pathological and criminal in his day. He was an explorer, a Queer Pioneer. The "problem" with explorers is that they have no maps from which to navigate, so everything they do pushes boundaries.

Edited February 23, 2024 by Flegetanis