Italian Elements in TdM

[BradGad]

If anyone has time and an interest to watch a video and think about a question...

 

I saw several videos about the Yves Renaud Gassmann deck and pretty much fell in love. So I ordered it, and it came yesterday. It is living up to expectations.

 

If you watch this video...

 

 

 

... you'll see that she refers several times about how aspects of the deck that depart from canonical TdM harken back to Italian elements. 

 

I'm kinda into the Italian connection. For me, there's an intrinsic link between folk tales and tarot... and my favorite collection of folk tales is Italo Calvino's Italian Folk Tales... and in his intro to that volume, Calvino speaks about the tales being charterized by "infinite variety, infinite repetition, which (bringing it back full circle) is also a perfect description of tarot. (For both of these, also think about a kaleidoscope: same thing: "infinite variety, infinite repetition"... I keep a kaleidoscope on my desk in the Cosmic Command Post.) And of course (speaking of Calvino) there's The Castle of Crossed Destinies. 

 

Anyhoo, my question: Can anyone here inform me about good sources to learn about what she's referring to, when she says this or that element comes from the Italian tradition?

 

[Sidebar: I think if I could get my hands on a YR Madenié next, then life would be grand and I could stop thinking about decks to get.]

 

[EDIT: And -- even though Marseilles is in France -- we're pretty clear that the deck originated more in Italy than France, right?]

Edited January 14, 2023 by BradGad

[Misterei]

58 minutes ago, BradGad said:

... Can anyone here inform me about good sources to learn about what she's referring to, when she says this or that element comes from the Italian tradition?

... even though Marseilles is in France -- we're pretty clear that the deck originated more in Italy than France, right?]

Tarocchi (which became Tarot) Originated in Italy in 1400s.

 

From Wikipedia: <<Habsburg–Valois Wars, were a series of conflicts covering the period 1494 to 1559>>

 

During these wars, the French got ahold of Tarocchi cards as "spoils of war" and carried them back to France. Most of these decks were hand-painted high-ticket toys of the aristocracy. Expensive and precious.

 

Marseille was a center for French printing industry in 1500s. The Marseille printers made-over the Tarocchi cards in block prints for mass-production. And shortened the name to Tarot. Soon Tarots were printed all over France and Switzerland ... not just Marseille ... but the name Tarot de Marseille stuck.

 

As far as understanding the Italian aesthetic and the Italian Tarocchi and Tarots ... you can learn a lot just by watching flip throughs on YT. I recommend watch a flip through of Tarocchi Fine Dalla Torre published by Museo Internazionale dei Tarocchi. This is a beautiful deck from the 1600s. There are many releases of the classic Vacchetta deck. Lo Scarabeo, Il Meneghello for example. Look for flipthrough videos of those. Also Tarot Piedmontese.  And of course Visconti Sforza deck will give you an idea how it all began.

 

I remain enamored with Italian decks.  I have 1 French style Marseille for reference ... but Italian decks trump the French IMO. Perhaps it's b/c the Italian decks retain some memory of Tarocchi's origins as art. Whereas the French decks were made quickly and cheaply for mass production. They were copies of something finer and more noble.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Misterei

[BradGad]

@Misterei ... I have so much to learn...

 

I just noticed your sig lines. 

 

> Anastasia Tarot & Vedic Astrology
> The Yoga of Tarot

 

When I re-booted on tarot this past Winter Solstice, I also rebooted on kriya yoga. 

 

SantataGamana's  books charge and recharge me, but right now, I'm finding that Ryan Kurcsak's videos are my best way back in, and -- as it happens -- I just got his book in the mail today.

 

And -- as it happens -- he leads the Asheville Vedic Astrology Center... where I am planning to go for a retreat in May. (I live fairly near there.)

 

I have long felt there is an intrinsic affinity between tarot and yoga...  And evidently/of course, you're there way ahead of me. 

 

I don't know how to integrate astrology... I'm busy enough trying to get going good on tarot and yoga, and integrate those, without one more thing... but it intrigues me that you connect tarot/yoga/astrology. 

 

But, anyhoo... not saying yet that you and I are twins separated at birth, but I'm getting a major vibe here. Even before this, your responses to my noobie posts have been the most on point. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by BradGad

[Misterei]

@BradGad Your trip to Asheville center sounds lovely. I'm low-key jealous };>

 

The Yoga of Tarot is a take-off of Frawley's book "The Yoga of Herbs" where he writes about both Ayurveda and Western Herbal medicines. I thought I would be publishing it about now ... during Hamsa Yoga ... but my whole life radically changed and it slowed-down the editing process. *sigh*

 

Yoga of Tarot grew from my original course, Misteri dei Tarocchi. I kept finding parallels between Hermetic and Vedic wisdom teachings. Vedic Astrology is more like Renaissance and Hermetic astrology than the modern western version of astrology. Then there was this 4-year rabbit hole of research into why and how this would be so. And the course evolved into Yoga of Tarot. I wish I had a better title, though.

[BradGad]

ZOMG... Herbs!

 

The main problem with going to the Asheville retreat is it's the same weekend as the Asheville Herb Festival... which is a big frikkin' deal! I've got there every year for the last eight years!

 

And we're all into Ayurveda here at my house. 

 

So shi... shoes... now I need to integrate tarot/yoga/astrology/herbalism/Ayurveda  

 

> my original course

 

You have courses? You have a website? You have stuff that people can read on the Internet? I have Internet access.

[Misterei]

20 minutes ago, BradGad said:

You have courses? You have a website? You have stuff that people can read on the Internet? I have Internet access.

Totally. I thought the link in my signature line worked ... but maybe not. Here's my site link.

 

And yes, that's quite a Devil's choice or 2 of swords or something ... choosing between an herb festival and a vedic astrology retreat. I had the same problem for end of January. Theosophical intensive vs. Vedic Astrology seminar. Ugh!

Edited January 14, 2023 by Misterei

[BradGad]

I'm there.

 

EDIT: Oops.. now I have to put in extra characters to make a valid reply. So wow! Tarot/astrology + web skills. I might need a class. 

[BradGad]

The sig line link is not working for me, on MacOS in Safari. It looks like a link but it doesn't do anything.

 

I did try it first.

Edited January 14, 2023 by BradGad

[Misterei]

24 minutes ago, BradGad said:

The sig line link is not working for me, on MacOS in Safari. It looks like a link but it doesn't do anything.

Ugh. You're right.

I thought that by paying the join fee I would get an active link in my signature. Prolly I have to do something since apparently it didn't magically happen. -UPDATE- I did something and now I should have a real live link in my sig line.

Thanks for letting me know.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Misterei

[gregory]

Your sig links are working just fine. @Misterei. I have to say that on another forum I'm on, Safari has been throwing up errors all week.... Try another browser, @BradGad

[BradGad]

Mistrerei's sig link is working fine for me in Safari now... wasn't but is now. Weirdness.

[Misterei]

7 hours ago, gregory said:

Your sig links are working just fine. @Misterei. I have to say that on another forum I'm on, Safari has been throwing up errors all week.... Try another browser, @BradGad

@gregory It wasn't working before I subscribed ...  then I joined as a subscriber ... but neglected to make the link active until @BradGad pointed out the issue. Anyway ... now I made the link active and all is well.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Misterei

[alethian]

I have an Ancient Italian Tarot deck.  It is a TdM type, but the majors look more like 1JJ deck which is a bit different from the traditional TdM.

The LWB meaning seems totally different from the usual GD based RWS or Thoth meaning for the deck.

 

I sometimes use this deck for my own reading. The pip cards readings are often challenging.  I am looking for study books for TdM deck reading.

Edited December 23, 2024 by alethian

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, alethian said:

The pip cards readings are often challenging.  I am looking for study books for TdM deck reading.

The Tarot is a deck of playing cards, and pips are pips. Any good playing cards resource will work. And the good news is that a couple of the best and most comprehensive resources are online, you can keep your money in your pocket.

Art of Cartomancy

Hedgewytchery

For further reading, there's Jodorowsky, Ben Dov, all the usual names that get tossed around. But those are about "TdM proper", i.e. french. I'd advise sticking with one method while learning anyway.
Untold Tarot is quite good and it gives you an overview of what's out there.

Edited December 23, 2024 by katrinka

[alethian]

27 minutes ago, katrinka said:

The Tarot is a deck of playing cards, and pips are pips. Any good playing cards resource will work. And the good news is that a couple of the best and most comprehensive resources are online, you can keep your money in your pocket.

Art of Cartomancy

Hedgewytchery

For further reading, there's Jodorowsky, Ben Dov, all the usual names that get tossed around. But those are about "TdM proper", i.e. french. I'd advise sticking with one method while learning anyway.
Untold Tarot is quite good and it gives you an overview of what's out there.

 

Great info and advice.  Excellent and interesting links too.  Thank you.