AI Art in Tarot

[cirom]

It's been a long time since I posted on this forum. but I felt I had to do so as my name had been referenced on numerous occasions in the context of the seemingly never-ending topic of digital art verses "real"art", especially now with the introduction of AI. first of all I would say that irrespective of how a deck is produced, what is important in terms of Tarot is wether you (not anyone else) just you, can read with with it. Nevertheless for the record and clarification. I use a digital pen and tablet to create my images. such a device recognizes my hand movements, the pressure I apply, the color I choose, the thickness and texture I choose in creating an image, just as I would with traditional media. I often produce preliminary sketches on an actual sketch pad, (but only for the comfort of sitting on a sofa rather than at a computer desk) and then scan those sketches and continue the image digitally. Why digitally ? because it allows me to experiment, change my mind, try variations of overall position composition color variations etc. That ability to experiment and modify is not as many people have often described it, as cheating, but an integral part of the creative process. If you consider the results to somehow lack the "soul"of real art. , I dont really know what else to say. Now in terms of AI, I was initially curious and indeed tested it out from very early on. I even produce a set of majors, both as a personal experiment, and with the intention of printing them out as a give away novelty to the attendees of presentation I was to give a few months later. But in the interim this technology gained traction even faster than I expected. there were already early decks arriving on kickstarter. They all looked quite vague and very recognizable as Midjourney version 1.0, 2.0 etc etc and you guessed it very similar to my own attempt. In other words, the novelty factor was already gone.  I literally trashed that set of minors. So I would categorically state that there is a difference between digital art and AI. With my decks, love them or hate them, It takes me nearly a year to produce my decks. Whereas an AI deck would take me a few weeks at most. Nevertheless I am not critiquing AI decks, like all media there will be those who will find ways to really come up with interesting work and are doing so, but for the most part some are clearly results of simply typing the most rudimentary of prompts. "King of Wands Tarot" is enough to elicit a viable result... I know because I have done it. Others will dedicate more time nuances and sophistication and the technology is fast approaching the point where you wont be able to tell wether its AI or not. However I have some serious concerns. Already people are  using AI with modified prompts... for example "King of Wands Tarot, in the style of" and then add an artists name, dead or living. Even going so far as to uploading images of an existing deck for AI to use as a base and then tweak, but still preserving recognizable characteristics and style of that pre existing deck... As if piracy wasn't enough of a problem..... So I have grave concerns for the future. While AI is marvel for anyone who dreams of creating their own deck but lacks the drawing skills to do so, I fear that the ease that AI allows that to be done by is fine on the individual level, but will result in a flood of new decks. from worthwhile new perspectives, to churned out fast food offerings. The sheer volume will create the perception that a tarot deck is something that anyone can do via the typing of a few words, and will undermine the magic that has endured for centuries, it will be perceived and valued like a easily produced commodity (that In many cases it will actually be). Im not saying that for personal concerns, because I am now officially retired, my most recent deck is my last. I'm saying that as a  general concern for the genre. 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by cirom

[Misterei]

delete edit

Edited October 24, 2023 by Misterei

[gregory]

As Ciro had issues uploading this; I am doing so in his behalf. Tell me this is AI and I will happily spit at you....

 

 

 

[DanielJUK]

@cirom always nice to see you around the forum, thanks for taking the time to post about your creative process and AI. Good luck with your last deck, the Voice and Vision Tarot

[Arania]

Looking at some of the decks which come out, there was already a lack of quality to some of them fitting the mass market. I still like many of them, even if they are just relatively cheap variations but the market has been flooded for decades now, and that's already "fast food" in my eyes. There are so many relatively useless RW clones (mostly) which only slightly change color, turn people into animals etcand the produiction quality is not that great with many of them - I don't think AI makes much of a difference there.

 

From the AI decks I got, only 1 was really unfinished/half-assed in the way it was done, with the others you can see effort put into it. From the AI images I use for my decks in progress, I can also tell you exactly what the ideas are and why. To do it right, it still takes time and work and you will see the difference in the end. It can take days trying and manipulating to get an image fitting your vision. I know enough people who give up with AI because to get something worthwhile it is not just clicking a button. And you can get so many interesting surprises!

 

I believe the hype as it is now will taper off for products like this because of the effort still needed to get something you really want.

[cirom]

That pretty much sums up my views. But I find the “And you can get so many interesting surprises” to be something that I thought about a lot when it comes assessing AI and it’s obvious increasing involvement in Tarot’s future. When all other artists fields are used to as a counterpoint to AI, all of them even digital art and photography, it’s a human who is determining what the final piece will look like. Each stage is a process towards that final item, the initial pencil line, brush stroke, chisel into stone, written word, or click of a camera pointed at something. Each may be attempted again, or modified along the way but such modifications are also chosen implementations. Whereas with AI, its capable of providing the actual ideas, the imaginative responses to the words you have typed in, and often results are significantly different, and unless I’m the only which I find highly unlikely, often I find myself thinking that the ideas AI has presented to me are better than the ideas I had been initially been considering. Then I can choose the preferred offering I’ve been presented with and ask AI for variations of its previous offerings. So while the end result would be something that I settle for and am happy with, can I honestly say that the result is something I created? Or merely the option I liked best? In other words,  using my past career in corporate design, advertising etc etc as the analogy, using AI is the equivalent of being the art director not the artist. Our role becomes one of selecting the various offerings from the art department, rather than producing them ourselves. So yes there are many interesting surprises, and that is also the fun part, but it raises a lot of questions, especially about the meaning of “created by”

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, cirom said:

So while the end result would be something that I settle for and am happy with, can I honestly say that the result is something I created? Or merely the option I liked best? In other words,  using my past career in corporate design, advertising etc etc as the analogy, using AI is the equivalent of being the art director not the artist. Our role becomes one of selecting the various offerings from the art department, rather than producing them ourselves. So yes there are many interesting surprises, and that is also the fun part, but it raises a lot of questions, especially about the meaning of “created by”

Exactly this! 

[Raggydoll]

And to show another aspect of this discussion, I’ll just drop this screenshot here. The copyright situation with AI art is so problematic. Some people clearly do not even think it is wrong to feed someone else’s work into the machine and create a “more detailed” version of the other persons deck.
 

(This particular kickstarter campaign has since been withdrawn, but I don’t think it will be the last time we see such occurrences in the tarot community) 

 

 

[Nemia]

This is disgusting and immoral. It's NOT how AI should be used and I can't imagine how it feels for a creator to see their own creation stolen like that. 

[Arania]

11 hours ago, cirom said:

 Whereas with AI, its capable of providing the actual ideas, the imaginative responses to the words you have typed in, and often results are significantly different, and unless I’m the only which I find highly unlikely, often I find myself thinking that the ideas AI has presented to me are better than the ideas I had been initially been considering. Then I can choose the preferred offering I’ve been presented with and ask AI for variations of its previous offerings. So while the end result would be something that I settle for and am happy with, can I honestly say that the result is something I created? Or merely the option I liked best? In other words,  using my past career in corporate design, advertising etc etc as the analogy, using AI is the equivalent of being the art director not the artist. Our role becomes one of selecting the various offerings from the art department, rather than producing them ourselves. So yes there are many interesting surprises, and that is also the fun part, but it raises a lot of questions, especially about the meaning of “created by”

Considering the fact that I can't draw much anymore, for decades my creative process has been collages, which means I always have to work with what's already there. Which always means to compromise, and which always means surprises. That's actually important to me. Even as a kid, I made whole walls of stories out of things I cut out and pasted onto each other, including satiric descriptions of the then-popes adventure with his misbehaving chair (yes I was always weird). I never "settle" for anything, I work with what's there. Collages are definitely an art style.

 

I've seen graphic artists work, including my former best friend, and there is never just one version of an image, sometimes she had dozens. It is always what you like best. Especially when you need to tell an artist what you want, which I suck at.

 

AI is a distinct advantage because all the old stuff I have I can now transform (including crappy drawings) and thus publish without having to worry about what came from where, or even how many different things were used in the end, or what was originaly digital and what was scanned. I can improve on the sometimes really bad quality of the images thanks to upscaling.  And fractal images, which I use a lot, are usually well done by AI. There are many styles to chose from, and I can mix and match. I still need to recombine a lot of the images, which is as time consuming as any other way.

 

And as I see on blueksy, several artists now use AI in their own works. There is no going back in any case, technology moves forward.

 

Asides from cards, I use AI for character images and scenery for my RPG adventures and stories. It's wonderful.

 

The problem with AI images is not that they exist. It's the way some people use it. The guy trying to duplicate a deck was just plain stupid.

[Raggydoll]

13 hours ago, Arania said:

 

 

The problem with AI images is not that they exist. It's the way some people use it. The guy trying to duplicate a deck was just plain stupid.

That, and the lack of laws and regulations. The legal system definitely needs to catch up with modern technology! 

[Arania]

Yeah, they are trying but are way too slow. Add to that that most of the people deciding on such things have no clue how it works or what it even is I doubt there will be any agreement and by then tech is at the next level anyway.

[gregory]

WELL - this will be good news for some here:

 

https://www.backerkit.com/blog/backerkit-ai-policy/

[Raggydoll]

13 minutes ago, gregory said:

WELL - this will be good news for some here:

 

https://www.backerkit.com/blog/backerkit-ai-policy/

I also saw that one of the large free sites for reference pics now allow you to opt out of AI created images. So I did a general search for something and noted how much came up, and then I did the same search but removed AI. And oh my, so much turned out to be AI. I didn’t look at actual photo references but at vectors of different frames/borders and it was very difficult to tell if it had been AI generated or not. So I appreciate that they allow us to make an informed choice.