AI Art in Tarot

[akiva]

5 hours ago, Mister said:

@akiva

 

I do hope that this

is indeed what is stopping them.

 

I would love it if it was their conscience, but that thing appears to be wearing thin in recent times.

 

On 'Wizards of the Coast' - they merged.

And merged again.

As did Grimaud, Cartes Production, ASS, AGM, Königsfurt Urania and USPCC (well-known for their Bycicle series and loads of english Tarots 'n Oracles).

All of them 'joined' the equally well-known Cartamundi-Group, apparently aiming to build a world-wide monopoly.

House Brepols is the founder as well as the main shareholder of Cartamundi.

 

If I am not mistaken,

Lo Scarabeo, Piatnik and Modiano are still 'unaffiliated', so to speak. 

I would love it if it were their conscience too. Though I find it difficult to put my faith into any corporation and trust that they won't go for profit over morality.

I think @FindYourSovereignty is right, it's up to us as consumers/artists/people who care to make sure we don't buy these products. 

 

I never realised there was so much merging going on! I had heard Cartamundi owned multiple other companies, but didnt realise the extent. I don't think they'd have the moral compass to choose human artists over AI, time will tell...

 

[rylla]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:40 PM, gregory said:

I like the look of that. And I suddenly wonder - how many of us can - HONESTLY - actually tell when a deck is AI ? I wouldn't have guessed about that one if I hadn't already known.

Tell you something funny? I don't even know what AI means 😞

Edited February 26, 2023 by rylla

[gregory]

Artificial Intelligence.

[Eric13]

Just like vinyl albums never left I don't think AI will replace original art work for decks, nor replace a persons desire for human created decks. AI is here to stay, but time will even things out. It's a new fad for people jump on or criticize. When I first read the original post what came to my mind is actually not knowing when a deck is AI created. But then again, as long as the reader, and its the reader whose the important aspect here, when the reader understands maintaining the essence of tarot that's what matters most. Troths survived almost a thousand years now, or so its said in some circle, this is just another part of its history. I don't se a problem with AI generated decks. 

[DanielJUK]

3 hours ago, rylla said:

Tell you something funny? I don't even know what AI means 😞

 

What @gregory said.

Instead of creating artwork in cards, you ask the AI to make what you want. Like make me a Tower card or make me a Tower card with peacocks flying out or a Tower card in pink.

 

It uses loads of fragments of pictures it has saved. I think we can all agree that at the moment it does not replace human created art 😀

[Guest]

Interesting topic and I think I may sit on the opposite side of the fence here.

 

Yes, I used AI to design my deck.

 

Why? Because I am not an artist beyond coloring books but I wanted to create something that spoke to ME and hopefully others. Paying another artist is cost prohibitive for me. I couldn't pay a fair amount for the detail that goes into creating a deck by hand. Also, I wanted more original images than just clip art or public domain stuff. People make decks from random clip art and public domain images quite frequently and I don't see nearly the backlash I do against AI users.

 

And if anyone thinks it was EASY..... You would be wrong. AI artwork still has many flaws to work around. Hands are the biggest issue. Trying to get a rendering where hands are done correctly is a nightmare. That aside, trying to capture a specific feel for each design is very difficult. Even if you use a specific "style" (as I did, using "Anime" with mine), you don't always get images that fit into what you are wanting to create. You are not going to create an entire deck overnight unless you get VERY lucky or are not very discerning over how your images look. I went through thousands of image renderings to find 54 that I felt were good enough to put into my deck. If I was lucky I might have finished 2 or 3 a night. I even did several minor editing tweaks in GIMP just to correct some detail or other and I deleted more images than I can count because the editing was beyond my capabilities. Even after finishing the rest of the deck, I have changed the Queen of Spades 3 times because I didn't like the first image I used. Or the second. You are still putting a lot of yourself into an AI deck if you do it correctly. It is just a tool and will only be as good as the user.

 

Now..... Can AI art be used for divination? Certainly, if you connect with the deck. If people could do it with plain old pip cards for centuries, there's no reason AI art couldn't be read. In the end, it's just an image used to help tap into your intuition. Just because it doesn't work for YOU doesn't mean it won't work for someone else. No deck connects with every user. My wife has a couple of decks that I have no connection to but she loves them.

 

So if you like a deck, use it. If you don't like a deck, don't use it. However, I find this, "we won't buy a deck from an AI creator and that will stop them from making them" attitude somewhat offensive. Who cares how it was made? Somebody's creative thought process still went into creating that deck and to say their work is lesser than someone else's because of the tools they used is rather closed minded.

 

I'll hop down from my soapbox now before I go into full rant mode.

 

[Raggydoll]

44 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

Who cares how it was made?

 

Well, a lot of people do care, and it’s not wrong for them to do so. Just like it isn’t wrong for someone to not care whether it was AI or traditional art 🙂 I understand that you could be offended by someone’s opinions regarding AI art, but I don’t think anyone here expressed their thoughts in an offensive way. The diversity of opinions and experiences is what makes a forum interesting, in my opinion. It provides so much food for thought! 

[Siavahda]

37 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

Because I am not an artist beyond coloring books but I wanted to create something that spoke to ME

 

That's like saying I could steal other people's songs, mash them up, and call them my work, and it would be ethically okay because I can't sing beyond shower tunes. Which of course is nonsense. Sorry, but lack of artistic ability doesn't give you a pass on stealing other people's work. It does not mean the universe/actual artists owe you anything (like the use of their work). It's not your work because you had a computer stick it together with a bunch of other people's pictures. You stole it and you poked it a bit. Doesn't make you an artist any more than me putting an Instagram filter on it would.

 

39 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

People make decks from random clip art and public domain images quite frequently and I don't see nearly the backlash I do against AI users.

Because public domain images are public domain, not stolen.

 

40 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

And if anyone thinks it was EASY..... You would be wrong.

 

Are you actually for real? 

 

a) How long do you think it took each artist to create each image that went into your algorithm? (And into the training of that algorithm?) How easy do you think creating THOSE images was, for each of those artists?

b) In comparison, you did not work hard

c) Even if you poured YEARS into tweaking the algorithm's results...hard work doesn't mean you're owed anything. It doesn't mean your final product is good. It doesn't mean anyone else will or should recognise the result of that hard work as art. All it means is that you worked hard. (By your standards.) I spent over a decade working on my first novel; doesn't mean it wasn't terrible. And that was my work, beginning to end. You took someone else's work, and have the audacity to say it's not easy to mash it up the way you want! I cannot even.

 

40 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

Who cares how it was made? Somebody's creative thought process still went into creating that deck and to say their work is lesser than someone else's because of the tools they used is rather closed minded.

When the 'tool' is an algorithm that mashes together the stolen work of actual artists, yes, that is lesser. And if you can't understand why the rest of us will not support you in, again, mashing together other people's stolen artwork - if you can't see the difference between that and the work real artists do - then I don't know what to tell you.

 

 

 

I deliberately said, in the opening post, that I did not want to debate the ethics of AI art. That was not what this was about. And your opinion on the use of AI art in divination is a welcome addition to the discussion we were all having. But even if it gets me thrown out of the forum, I'm not going to let someone defend and/or justify creating AI 'art'. 

 

If you want to be an artist, put the work in and learn to draw (or paint or whatever). If you can't/won't do that...hi. Welcome to the vast majority of the human race, who are not artists. None of us are allowed to steal other people's work - not even if we can't afford to commission the art we want! - and most of us manage to not-do-that just fine every single day. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Well, a lot of people do care, and it’s not wrong for them to do so. Just like it isn’t wrong for someone to not care whether it was AI or traditional art 🙂 I understand that you could be offended by someone’s opinions regarding AI art, but I don’t think anyone here expressed their thoughts in an offensive way. The diversity of opinions and experiences is what makes a forum interesting, in my opinion. It provides so much food for thought! 

Maybe not deliberately offensive but the implication is that this somehow makes it less than a deck being created by other methods. I’ve seen countless decks created with public domain images and decks that look like they were drawn by 3 year olds holding the crayons in their feet. I didn’t judge them and I don’t judge those who use them. I don’t think, “well, if I don’t buy it, they will stop making them.” If that worked, US Games would be out of business already. I just go on about my day and be glad that someone is using whatever means they have to be creative.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Siavahda said:

 

That's like saying I could steal other people's songs, mash them up, and call them my work, and it would be ethically okay because I can't sing beyond shower tunes. Which of course is nonsense. Sorry, but lack of artistic ability doesn't give you a pass on stealing other people's work. It does not mean the universe/actual artists owe you anything (like the use of their work). It's not your work because you had a computer stick it together with a bunch of other people's pictures. You stole it and you poked it a bit. Doesn't make you an artist any more than me putting an Instagram filter on it would.

 

Because public domain images are public domain, not stolen.

 

Are you actually for real? 

 

a) How long do you think it took each artist to create each image that went into your algorithm? (And into the training of that algorithm?) How easy do you think creating THOSE images was, for each of those artists?

b) In comparison, you did not work hard

c) Even if you poured YEARS into tweaking the algorithm's results...hard work doesn't mean you're owed anything. It doesn't mean your final product is good. It doesn't mean anyone else will or should recognise the result of that hard work as art. All it means is that you worked hard. (By your standards.) I spent over a decade working on my first novel; doesn't mean it wasn't terrible. And that was my work, beginning to end. You took someone else's work, and have the audacity to say it's not easy to mash it up the way you want! I cannot even.

 

When the 'tool' is an algorithm that mashes together the stolen work of actual artists, yes, that is lesser. And if you can't understand why the rest of us will not support you in, again, mashing together other people's stolen artwork - if you can't see the difference between that and the work real artists do - then I don't know what to tell you.

 

 

 

I deliberately said, in the opening post, that I did not want to debate the ethics of AI art. That was not what this was about. And your opinion on the use of AI art in divination is a welcome addition to the discussion we were all having. But even if it gets me thrown out of the forum, I'm not going to let someone defend and/or justify creating AI 'art'. 

 

If you want to be an artist, put the work in and learn to draw (or paint or whatever). If you can't/won't do that...hi. Welcome to the vast majority of the human race, who are not artists. None of us are allowed to steal other people's work - not even if we can't afford to commission the art we want! - and most of us manage to not-do-that just fine every single day. 

 

Wow….. Just….. wow.

 

You know what the AI generator used to create my images? Photographs from my own collection and public domain photographs from Upsplash. You can upload images for it to render from. Not only that but images generated in AI are so vastly different from anything the algorithm may use as a guide, there is very little chance it would be misconstrued as anyone else’s original artwork. Nothing was STOLEN from anybody so keep your judgment and false accusations for someone else.

 

People have been redrawing the RWS deck and reusing her images for their own decks since the artwork went into the public domain. Are you just as angry at those creators? Sorry not sorry for defending AI artwork.

 

Oh…. And your analogy about using parts of other people’s songs to make your own? It’s called sampling and musicians have been doing it since the ‘70s.

Edited March 1, 2023 by WilliamEridani

[Raggydoll]

43 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

 

Wow….. Just….. wow.

 

You know what the AI generator used to create my images? Photographs from my own collection and public domain photographs from Upsplash. You can upload images for it to render from. Not only that but images generated in AI are so vastly different from anything the algorithm may use as a guide, there is very little chance it would be misconstrued as anyone else’s original artwork. Nothing was STOLEN from anybody so keep your judgment and false accusations for someone else.

 

People have been redrawing the RWS deck and reusing her images for their own decks since the artwork went into the public domain. Are you just as angry at those creators? Sorry not sorry for defending AI artwork.

 

Oh…. And your analogy about using parts of other people’s songs to make your own? It’s called sampling and musicians have been doing it since the ‘70s.

I think it’s awesome that you source images so carefully and it’s clearly very important to highlight that AI processes doesn’t automatically entail stolen art. I’m sorry that you were accused of stealing art, that really wasn’t fair. 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

I think it’s awesome that you source images so carefully and it’s clearly very important to highlight that AI processes doesn’t automatically entail stolen art. I’m sorry that you were accused of stealing art, that really wasn’t fair. 

 

It is what it is. Some people don’t realize technology evolves and it’s not as evil as they wish it was. (Well, except for the Matrix and Terminator robots.) It also shows a very rudimentary understanding of how AI actually works in this case. I will continue to do what I do. I’m not forcing anyone to buy my deck when it goes into print. I’m also not going to be demeaned for the process I used when there are decks out there that required no more thought process than blots on cardstock.

[fire cat pickles]

It's good you brought to our attention that in this evolving art where there is more control than we have been led to believe. I find it interesting that you can set parameters to limit the pool of artwork to public domain or one's own artwork, for example. 

 

I guess a good analogy would be when one views a "chop shop" where there are cars that are put together from old cars. Not all chop shops are illegal (most aren't) and it's unfair to presume that a jallopy is pieced together from stolen car parts. 

 

You may not see me driving around in one but I can appreciate the aesthetic and the work that goes into building it.

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by fire cat pickles

[Raggydoll]

6 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

It's good you brought to our attention that in this evolving art where there is more control than we have been led to believe. I find it interesting that you can set parameters to limit the pool of artwork to public domain or one's own artwork, for example. 

 

I guess a good analogy would be when one views a "chop shop" where there are cars that are put together from old cars. Not all chop shops are illegal (most aren't) and it's unfair to presume that a jallopy is pieced together from stolen car parts. 

 

You may not see me driving around in one but I can appreciate the aesthetic and the work that goes into building it.

 

Well put!

[DanielJUK]

Hi all,

This discussion is always going to have strong opinions about it and we welcome all opinions and views. But I just wanted to remind everyone that the first rule of the forum is to 'respect one another', you don't have to agree with another member but please show them respect. This includes respecting other opinions, even if you think they are wrong.  Remember that the tone of a message can come across very differently in text posts without facial expressions or vocal sounds.  Please be respectful of each other in this thread and elsewhere around this forum, Thank you

[DanielJUK]

Let's go back to the original question asked in this thread.....

 

Quote

I'm curious what opinion people here have on whether AI art is useful for divination

 

[Raggydoll]

To answer the original question : yes I think AI art could be useful for divination. I personally divine with all sorts of things; like the behavior of birds or the shape of clouds or the sounds of rustling trees. I have used memory cards and other game cards to divine, and I have also used photo collages and random postcards. That doesn’t mean that any bird or cloud is considered a sign, or that any deck will speak to me. But in principle, yeah it can be used for divination. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

Let's go back to the original question asked in this thread.....

 

 

As I said in my original post, I don’t think AI images are any different from images created using other methods. In the end it’s just a picture used to help convey the meaning of the card. It’s all in the aesthetics whether an individual user will connect with it or not.

[BradGad]

It's so easy to get scared of what is new and weird.

 

I haven't thought this through... I'm just tossing it out there.

 

Think about how many jobs are on the chopping block from AI (paralegals, etc). Think about how many jobs are on the chopping block from automation (just about every front-line worker in manufacturing). Think about how many jobs are on the line from automated vehicles (truck drivers, literally the most in-demand occupation right now). 

 

Then, think about what AI can't do. 

 

I can think of one thing: apply the secret sauce of human (Cosmic) intuition to a powerful work of art for self-discovery and divination.

 

Yes, all this is potentially scary. I think it's cool we're talking about it (everyone should be talking about it).

 

But one possible take-away: this is job security for us!

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by BradGad

[Misterei]

5 hours ago, WilliamEridani said:

... I don’t think AI images are any different from images created using other methods. In the end it’s just a picture used to help convey the meaning of the card. It’s all in the aesthetics whether an individual user will connect with it or not.

To me a good Tarot card is WAAAY more than just a picture.

I don't love Thoth deck ... but I respect the sheer level of occult knowledge that went into it. It's much more than just pictures. I happen to like RWS ... some ppl don't ... but again ... HUGE amount of thought and occult symbolism embedded there. Everything was placed intentionally and everything means something. It's more than just pictures.

Now much of this has gotten diluted in the mad rush of Tarot's popularity.

Everyone and their sister is jumping on the bandwagon to become a deck creator and cash in on the craze.

Some of these new decks have truly profound symbolism and depth.

But 97% of the new decks are simply shallow. Pretty pictures. Or grotesque, or whatever the aesthetic theme du jour.

 

In dance there are popular dances which TBH are mechanical representations of mating behavior.

Then we have sacred dances which celebrate Shiva or Krishna. The Gurdjieff Movements which are totally mysterious yet compelling. Whole other thing.

 

There is sacred art and profane art.

AI can never generate sacred art.

 

The whole point of the sacred is to transcend the mechanical part of our human nature.

AI is mechanical, still. And when it becomes actually sentient and self-aware?

Battlestar Galactica and Caprica is all I can say. Star Trek Voyager. That's some uncharted sci fi territory.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Misterei said:

There is sacred art and profane art.

That’s a bit black and white.

 

What about photographs?

 

Sure, a human sets up the scene and pushes the button but it’s the camera that takes the picture and produces the final output. There are dozens of decks out there that are done with photography and are absolutely amazing.

 

Same for AI. It may produce the final output but it’s the human that feeds in cues and similar images to what they want. “Setting the scene” so to speak. As technology advances, we will be able to fine tune those designs even further. And who is to say an individual can’t add any symbolism to a piece of AI artwork themselves? We have tools like Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator and GIMP that allow us to manipulate an image in any number of ways.

[Misterei]

3 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

That’s a bit black and white.

Absolutely. Sometimes in graphic design and in life we need the stark contrast of black and white so everything doesn't just disintegrate into grey mush.

3 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

What about photographs?

I personally don't care for photo decks.  There is a Haitian deck which I loved as an art project ... photos of Haitian people posed as Tarot cards ... brilliant. But I would never read with that deck and don't own it. I loved it as art and a bit of social commentary ... not as Tarot.

3 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

... There are dozens of decks out there that are done with photography and are absolutely amazing.

Amazing is in the eye of the beholder. Other than the artistic appeal of that Haitian deck ... I pretty much hate photo decks and collage decks. They disgust me. I can't tell you why but I viscerally dislike them.

3 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

Same for AI. It may produce the final output but it’s the human that feeds in cues and similar images to what they want.

This is why I addressed the 97% of new decks coming out that are shallow and trendy. Whether it's AI or human produced ... many many people jumping on the Tarot bandwagon without knowing much. And it shows in their work.

3 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

... And who is to say an individual can’t add any symbolism to a piece of AI artwork themselves?

OK fair enough. Would Crowley or Waite have made their decks with AI if they lived today?
I'm still thinking "no". As we are increasingly forced to deal with machines (customer support, anyone?) and HATING IT ... b/c maybe the problem is too complex for the customer support bot and we REALLY DO need a human to resolve it ... anyway ... I think bespoke, handmade things become even more precious and relevant.

3 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

We have tools like Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator and GIMP that allow us to manipulate an image in any number of ways.

Here's the thing. A few years ago I bought Pixie's LeNormand. Someone had taken PCS artwork and photoshopped it into a LeNormand deck. At first i thought, brilliant. It will go with my RWS tarots for when I use both tarots and LeNormands in a reading. Cool.

I found I HATED the deck. I got that visceral sense of disgust trying to read with it. It was like a Frankenstein monster deck. Dead body parts sewn together. Nothing with real life or spirit of its own. I gave it away. Many people like that deck. It gets great reviews. But not from me.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

Absolutely. Sometimes in graphic design and in life we need the stark contrast of black and white so everything doesn't just disintegrate into grey mush.

I personally don't care for photo decks.  There is a Haitian deck which I loved as an art project ... photos of Haitian people posed as Tarot cards ... brilliant. But I would never read with that deck and don't own it. I loved it as art and a bit of social commentary ... not as Tarot.

Amazing is in the eye of the beholder. Other than the artistic appeal of that Haitian deck ... I pretty much hate photo decks and collage decks. They disgust me. I can't tell you why but I viscerally dislike them.

This is why I addressed the 97% of new decks coming out that are shallow and trendy. Whether it's AI or human produced ... many many people jumping on the Tarot bandwagon without knowing much. And it shows in their work.

OK fair enough. Would Crowley or Waite have made their decks with AI if they lived today?
I'm still thinking "no". As we are increasingly forced to deal with machines (customer support, anyone?) and HATING IT ... b/c maybe the problem is too complex for the customer support bot and we REALLY DO need a human to resolve it ... anyway ... I think bespoke, handmade things become even more precious and relevant.

Here's the thing. A few years ago I bought Pixie's LeNormand. Someone had taken PCS artwork and photoshopped it into a LeNormand deck. At first i thought, brilliant. It will go with my RWS tarots for when I use both tarots and LeNormands in a reading. Cool.

I found I HATED the deck. I got that visceral sense of disgust trying to read with it. It was like a Frankenstein monster deck. Dead body parts sewn together. Nothing with real life or spirit of its own. I gave it away. Many people like that deck. It gets great reviews. But not from me.

 

And that’s the crux of it all. A deck you hate others love. My wife has a couple of decks that she adores and I hate them. (I think one is downright silly) However she does some of her best readings with those decks because of HER connection to them and my feelings about them are irrelevant. They are hers and they make her happy. You don’t like photographic decks. Many do. You don’t like AI but others might. I happen to think Crowley’s deck is an abomination. I’m also not a fan of Marseilles styled decks where the staves/rods and swords look nothing like what they are supposed to be.

 

As I keep pointing out, it’s a matter of aesthetics and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you like the way a deck looks, you will connect with it better regardless of how it was created.

[Misterei]

37 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

And that’s the crux of it all. A deck you hate others love.

Perhaps I didn't make the point clearly. There are things beyond egoic notions of personal likes and dislikes. I don't particularly like Thoth deck ... but I can recognize and respect the level of occult expertise that went into it. This is an aspect of sacred art. It transcends personal likes and dislikes.

37 minutes ago, WilliamEridani said:

... it’s a matter of aesthetics and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you like the way a deck looks, you will connect with it better regardless of how it was created.

Tarot can be more than a picture book of platitudes that appeal to the aesthetics of our shallow ego likes and dislikes.
Sacred art should touch something transcendent BEYOND the ego.

Can AI do that by hobbling together a pastiche of images?

Was Dr. Frankenstein's monster a man?

There's a reason zombie movies are horror movies. Seeing dead things re-animated ... motivated only by self preservation and hunger ... is an analogy for the unenlightened human condition. Or media-addicted consumerists. I'm not sure which.

 

AI decks and photoshop decks are frankenstein zombie decks ... no matter how prettily done. Soul comes from things like artistic talent, years of study, devotion. These things put the living soul in a deck. and make it more than a zombie frankenstein creature.

 

Everyone wants to be a "deck creator" these days.

Only been doing tarot 25 minutes? No artistic talent? No problem. We've got AI.

 

NOT saying this is you. I don't know you. You might have a degree in fine arts for all I know. You may have studied Tarot for 50 years. I don't know anything about you.

 

But from whence cames this notion that the appearance of a thing is more important than its heart?

That what it looks like is more important than HOW or WHY it was made?

 

There are costumers who sew historic costumes by hand. It's a choice not to use the sewing machine. The sewing by hand becomes a meditation and commitment to a level of expertise which is lost in our consumerist gluttony of fast fashion. And now we've got fast tarot fashion.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Misterei

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Misterei said:

NOT saying this is you. I don't know you. You might have a degree in fine arts for all I know. You may have studied Tarot for 50 years. I don't know anything about you.

I can’t draw a stick figure properly and I’ve only been reading Tarot off and on for about 30 years. 😉

 

31 minutes ago, Misterei said:

But from whence cames this notion that the appearance of a thing is more important than its heart?

That what it looks like is more important than HOW or WHY it was made?

I think the heart of the thing needs to be there regardless of the method used. If you truly don’t care about something, it will show in your finished product regardless of whether you drew it by hand, took photographs, used a digital art tool like Photoshop or an AI art generator. If the passion is not there, the aesthetics won’t be either.

 

The WHY is very important. If it’s approached with love, respect and a desire to create something, that says more than the method used.

 

AI is just one more tool at our disposal. People will either connect with the final result or not and not everyone will have the same reaction to it.