Justice versus Judgement

[Chariot]

I see there was an earlier thread in 2021, comparing Justice, Judgement and Temperance, which was interesting as I never saw Temperance as having much to do with the concept of either Justice or Judgement, but rather more akin to Strength—self-control, etc.  It was interesting to think about the three cards as having connections after all.

However, I do struggle at times between Justice and Judgement.

For example, if we got the upright Justice card in a Celtic Cross spread, in the position of 'what is about to happen next, in the near future,'  I would be inclined to think there will be an issue that will receive fair treatment (as opposed to if the Justice card were reversed, and the treatment would be unfair.)  I see Justice more as something that's fair or unfair—usually imposed by somebody else with the power to 'judge', not necessarily as something cosmically correct or incorrect.

If Judgement upright was the card in the 'just about to happen' position, however, I'd be incline to think that the querent has done all they can, the time for preparation is over, and they will pass the test—either a literal test or a moral test—and will achieve success (get their diploma, get their driving license .) If Judgement is reversed, the querent is about to fail the test (or the result will be delayed.) The concept of fairness doesn't enter into it either way.  It's kind of like what Yoda said ...you do or you don't do...there is no 'try.'  Judgement is not so much about somebody else passing judgement (like in a court situation—which can be biased, unfair, or unbiased and very fair) but more about you actually accomplishing what you set out to do, or failing in the attempt.  If that makes sense?

But sometimes these two cards can be problematic, depending on the circumstances.  Can anybody share some thoughts on this?  Have you had a situation in a reading where you weren't sure how to handle these cards?
 

[akiva]

I think it helps to remember that "judgement" is referring to revelations (I think?) which is why we usually see people rising up to the angel. Judgement can symbolise renewal or change of situation, usually unexpectedly. Until I looked at it that way I really struggled with this card. It can also be the end of something which gives way to something new. Kind of like how revelations is the end of an age, but something always follows.

 

I also struggled with justice in some contexts, until I read waites meanings for it, one of them is "executive". Which makes a lot of sense. Having the power to put things into effect. Much like legal systems and politicians etc do. That helped me fit the card better into different contexts.

There have been times I've seen the sword in justice cut away the card it's touching, and the scales showing what's balanced from said cutting. Usually when it appears in the middle of a spread. In my deck the sword is to the left so it's easy to see it that way. 

 

I love your idea regarding judgement being about passing a test! I'll be adding that to my repertoire for sure. It kind of ties in with Mathers idea that the card represents result or determination of a matter. 😊

[Misterei]

To me the cards seem quite different ... except when they appear together. I often get Judgement in health spreads. Other times it means to listen to intuition, heed the call. And of course the standard meanings of drastic changes or the end of an era.

As @akiva mentions ... Justice holds a sword. She often cuts things or cuts through things. She makes boundaries and judgements.

 

When I get both cards together ... it's almost always a legal matter ... so I do see them as related that way. Justice more often refers to legal issues when alone. Judgement seldom is a legal card just on its own.

 

And then if we go back historically ... Judgment had to do with fame ... but I don't take that meaning when I actually read. It's just a historic factoid to me at this point.

[akiva]

@Misterei what context would judgement take within a legal situation when paired with justice? Would it be winning the lawsuit if it were a favourable spread?

 

5 hours ago, Misterei said:

Justice holds a sword. She often cuts things or cuts through things. She makes boundaries and judgements.

In my notes I'd scribbled the word "limit" in regards to justice, but boundaries I like more 😁

[Mister]

11 hours ago, Misterei said:

When I get both cards together ... it's almost always a legal matter ... so I do see them as related that way. Justice more often refers to legal issues when alone. Judgement seldom is a legal card just on its own.

 

Both together, same here. For the single appearance also.

In my case (which is what the rest of this post speaks of), I have to take note of the order.

 

Judgement first, Justice thereafter is a legal matter coming into the questlers life.

Justice first, Judgement thereafter is the closing thereof.

 

@akiva, (not speaking for @Misterei, simply butting in here 😉) if the layout is positive overall, judgement after justice is "success for the querist".

If it is for example, Justice, Judgement, XIII ("a legal matter closing brings scarcity"), a loss for the sitter can be expected.

 

Justice and Judgement (that order) by themselves (as a pair) only signify the closing of a legal matter, they do not denote the outcome.

However, I have noted that, if the first card of a line of three is a positive one, next up is justice, then judgement, I can take it that the verdict will be in favour of the questioner by virtue of Judgement mirroring the first card.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Mister

[akiva]

@Mister thank you for butting in, that makes sense! I could see the judgement & XIII combo as that too, or at least the closing of a legal situation that brings grief along with it.

 

21 minutes ago, Mister said:

Justice and Judgement (that order) by themselves (as a pair) only signify the closing of a legal matter, they do not denote the outcome.

So do you view judgement as wholly neutral without a positive card to modify/back it up? Justice is very neutral too but that's a bit more obvious.

[Mister]

32 minutes ago, akiva said:

So do you view judgement as wholly neutral without a positive card to modify/back it up? Justice is very neutral too but that's a bit more obvious.

 

No, it leans more towards the positive for me.

 

It is a matter of caution when dealing with legal questions.

I would feel rather uneasy to take the pair as "succesful outcome" without backup, but that's just me.

[Misterei]

2 hours ago, Mister said:

... I have to take note of the order.

Judgement first, Justice thereafter is a legal matter coming into the questlers life.

Justice first, Judgement thereafter is the closing thereof.

...if the layout is positive overall, judgement after justice is "success for the querist".

If it is for example, Justice, Judgement, XIII ("a legal matter closing brings scarcity"), a loss for the sitter can be expected.

 

Justice and Judgement (that order) by themselves (as a pair) only signify the closing of a legal matter, they do not denote the outcome.

However, I have noted that, if the first card of a line of three is a positive one, next up is justice, then judgement, I can take it that the verdict will be in favour of the questioner by virtue of Judgement mirroring the first card.

@Mister I LOVE this. It's how I would read it too ... but I never formally quantified it as such. Very nice!

Edited March 2, 2023 by Misterei

[akiva]

2 hours ago, Mister said:

 

No, it leans more towards the positive for me.

 

It is a matter of caution when dealing with legal questions.

I would feel rather uneasy to take the pair as "succesful outcome" without backup, but that's just me.

I had replied to this but it seems to have vanished 😯

I would also be hesitant to read it so positively regarding something as serious as a legal issue.

 

How would you read the combination reversed, with judgement first? I could see it as a result that imposes limits or boundaries on a situation. Kind of like a sentencing after a trial?

 

[Mister]

53 minutes ago, akiva said:

I would also be hesitant to read it so positively regarding something as serious as a legal issue.

See?

Caution is your friend with cards. After all, someone might just disregard the "for entertainment purposes only" - disclaimer, and then things better work out according to your read!

 

Concerning the reversals, I would do the following:

 

Check the pile, see if I flipped it upside down, apologize for the inconvenience, put cards back, shuffle and deal again.

I do not read reversals.

On the other hand, I trust myself with reading the same question multiple times, so that is that.

 

@Misterei Your comment flipped my "react cheeky to praise"-switch.

I've got it surpressed now, so: Thank You!

😎

[akiva]

@Mister sorry, I should of been clearer, I was referring to the pairing being swapped round ie: judgment and justice, rather than justice and judgement 😂 I dont read reversals either! 😊

Edited March 2, 2023 by akiva

[Mister]

@akiva Ah! Okay. Then: Rewind, have at it again.

 

3 hours ago, akiva said:

How would you read the combination reversed, with judgement first? I could see it as a result that imposes limits or boundaries on a situation.

Kind of like a sentencing after a trial?

 

6 hours ago, Mister said:

Judgement first, Justice thereafter is a legal matter coming into the questlers life.

In my case, that is what it is most of the time in reads for an outlook of what is to come.

 

Concerning the "boundaries", or restriction - that is the trial itself. It must have resulted from something to be a  t r i a l  to begin with 😉

 

In my pack, sentencing is the agency of Judgement, hence it is this again:

7 hours ago, Mister said:

Justice and Judgement (that order) by themselves (as a pair) only signify the closing of a legal matter, they do not denote the outcome.

 

Spaghetti, innit? 😁

[akiva]

@Mister so judgment would announce that legal things are coming? That's interesting! I like that idea 😁

 

39 minutes ago, Mister said:

Concerning the "boundaries", or restriction - that is the trial itself. It must have resulted from something to be a  t r i a l  to begin with 😉

I would of assumed sentencing would be the other way round, with judgment concluding the trial (determination or result of a matter) and justice doling out the punishment accordingly (restriction or limitation) 😯

But I think I get what you're saying here... I need to contemplate it more! 😂 Legal readings haven't come up for me at all. So looking at the cards this way is new to me 😊

[Mister]

@akiva

The order we discussed is the one I employ for I have found it to be what works best in my case.

That @Misterei and me share this set is certainly a co-incidence (...happens with tarot...).

We never crossed paths before signing up to this here forum.

 

Long story short: If you find that for you Justice reads like dishing out the punishment, stick to it.

If, on the other hand, you happen to find your liking of the discussed idea to be way beyond a fancy - have at it!

[Misterei]

7 hours ago, Mister said:

It is a matter of caution when dealing with legal questions.

I would feel rather uneasy to take the pair as "succesful outcome" without backup, but that's just me.

@Mister I would have to see 6 wands, 6 pents, 9 cups, 10 pents ... these cards tell me the legal case goes for my client. Otherwise ... I would not offer any opinion. Likewise, 10 swords, 3 swords, death, devil, tower = you're gonna loose. Ouch!

Hanged Man? God only knows ... but it will take a LONG time haha.

[akiva]

9 hours ago, Mister said:

@akiva

The order we discussed is the one I employ for I have found it to be what works best in my case.

That @Misterei and me share this set is certainly a co-incidence (...happens with tarot...).

We never crossed paths before signing up to this here forum.

 

Long story short: If you find that for you Justice reads like dishing out the punishment, stick to it.

If, on the other hand, you happen to find your liking of the discussed idea to be way beyond a fancy - have at it!

I would need actual legal readings and then for this combo to come out to be certain how these read for me. This was just musing on potentials more than anything (from my part at least). Punishment with justice on it's own seems slightly harsh/beyond it's neutrality the more I think about it.

 

It's nice being able to discuss it with people who have experienced legal situations in tarot. Your ideas and @Misterei's are definitely being noted! 😊

[Misterei]

9 hours ago, akiva said:

I would need actual legal readings and then for this combo to come out to be certain how these read for me

Yes, this is ALWAYS the case. Still, I've done enough legal topics for clients that I've noticed certain cards constellate in the spread when there's a lawsuit.

 

Of course clients want to know how is it going to come out ... I'm extremely cautious to answer this question ... but sometimes the cards give a pretty solid indication and it's usually right. Then again ... if it's wrong maybe the client never comes back so I don't know.

 

I never 100% place confidence in cards ... but in some cases I'll say it looks 95% ... in other cases I say the cards don't give a clear indication and it could go either way.

[akiva]

14 hours ago, Misterei said:

Yes, this is ALWAYS the case. Still, I've done enough legal topics for clients that I've noticed certain cards constellate in the spread when there's a lawsuit.

I'll probably have to get the practice in by watching legal dramas and reading for them! I've only ever had one real world legal question and I ended up using geomancy for that, which is very easy to do!

 

14 hours ago, Misterei said:

I never 100% place confidence in cards ... but in some cases I'll say it looks 95% ... in other cases I say the cards don't give a clear indication and it could go either way.

Sound advice! And something I try to remember when reading the cards, even for less serious subjects than legal situations.

I really like that you're capable of saying/telling a client that the cards arent clear. Not everyone is able to do that!

 

When you referenced the 6 of wands with justice and judgment as going in favour for the querent, was this from the RWS deck? I think I remember you saying you predominantly read with that with clients 😊

[DanielJUK]

These are some related old threads with posts which also might give people ideas (including the thread mentioned by @Chariot)....

 

 

 

For Me.....

 

Justice is external to us, like it's outside of us. When someone is waiting for a decision in a court, they have no control of their outcome. A judge or judges (in some countries) or a Jury try to make an impartial and fair decision. The outcome is the fair decision, which we might not like but we can't control that. We can do our best to prepare for it but when we have to wait for the outcome. Justice is also about fairness and equality to right something unjust. Often the outcome is quite middle ground / "both sides" rather than the action we desire. Someone drives into our car, justice as an outcome wants an equal and fair result, you want the exact money to repair the damage, plus some compensation and the person gets the fair punishment if they did something wrong, we rarely fully get this outcome. Our lover is caught cheating, Justice would be karma being fair and getting back at them 😉 . Justice for the fight for same-sex marriage, it was unfair and unequal that some people didn't have the same rights. But in most countries it wasn't like immediately same-sex couples had the same marriage rights, it's small steps and there is a first step in the right direction. Often it doesn't give us what we want but it gives us a fair result. If you get this for making a decision I always think you should be like a judge, logical, impartial and based on the evidence (not on feelings). It can also show you need to bring more balance in your life in readings. So really it's about correcting something unfair and unequal.

 

Judgement is internal to us. As I said before in that Judgement thread about the RWS card, "It's Judgement Day. The angel blows the trumpet in RWS cards and the dead rise again towards it. They are absolved of their sins and can now move to Heaven". Something in our lives has come back to life. If you don't deal with something or conclude, it comes back at you later! This has happened to me so many times. Perhaps you have a new way of going about things, it's a rebirth. Also it's about change or transition but you choose to change spurred on by this reawakening (unlike Death which is forced on us). The judgement taken in this card is to close the door on something and move on, time to take a new path or new course of action. You choose to make this change yourself after a realisation or epiphany. It's an awakening looking at your own life.

 

For what is about to happen....

 

Justice is out of your control, so yes it's the driving instructor who will make the decision but you can really prepare for it for the best result. There is some tradition if you read reversals that Justice upright = good outcome, Justice reversed = bad outcome but I am not sure I would go along with that binary in my readings. Judgement, a good example of this in this situation, I once read an article by a woman who left their no good husband after years and decided to learn to drive. She was getting her independence back and she needs to get around. So when she is taking her driving test, it's this huge change in her life. Her motive for doing this driving test is for her own independence to get around, rather than leaving it in the decision of the 3rd party, she might do everything to pass, she is judging herself as a personal part of her journey. She did pass by the end of the article, part of her new life she happened. Her test outcome was very judgement.

 

I wrote down in my journal years ago the best line from AT's Thirteen, Justice is Objective, Judgement is Subjective.

 

Just for completeness Temperance is about tempering something, you blend something together to get a stronger or better result.

[Chariot]

Thank you for all your responses.  I'll incorporate some of them into my readings from now on.  I like the concept of renewals.  I've always regarded the Judgement card as an ending card ...something has ended, can no longer be altered, and we move on. So renewals, especially when taken in the context of 'arising to a new life' is a useful way to use the card.  Justice is a bit different ...and the verdict offered by Justice isn't necessarily the end of the road.

I also like the simple concept of Objective/Subjective ...although I can see times when these two won't apply.  Justice doesn't always deal with legal things.  Sometimes it can deal with simple issues of fairness or unfairness, which might be anything BUT objective.  But it's a good difference to keep in mind for readings.

I just have often found it difficult to know what sort of approach to take when I get either of these cards—never mind them both together (in fact I don't ever remember getting them both together.)  I do use reversals which does help the focus at times—I can't see much benefit in getting a reading that says some sort of judging is going to happen, but it could be favorable, unfavorable, fair or unfair, you will pass or fail, etc.  I do want to know, if possible, which kind of outcome the card wants me to prepare for or understand.

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Chariot

[Misterei]

9 hours ago, akiva said:

I'll probably have to get the practice in by watching legal dramas and reading for them!

@akiva Great idea. I was coaching a student yesterday and we read on the Shamima Begum case that's creating a stir in UK. LOL the read we got is that it could go either way ... and to try reading again when/if she files an appeal or however the next event of the drama unfolds. This is a saving grace ... many times when the cards don't give a clear indication ... they DO at least suggest when to ask again.

9 hours ago, akiva said:

I really like that you're capable of saying/telling a client that the cards arent clear ...

The clients usually aren't so happy about it ... but at least they know I'm 100% honest.

9 hours ago, akiva said:

When you referenced the 6 of wands with justice and judgment as going in favour for the querent, was this from the RWS deck?

Yes. I nearly always use RWS for clients b/c 6 wands I can literally point to the card and say, "look it's a victory parade" and the client instantly sees that.

[akiva]

10 minutes ago, Misterei said:

@akiva Great idea. I was coaching a student yesterday and we read on the Shamima Begum case that's creating a stir in UK. LOL the read we got is that it could go either way ... and to try reading again when/if she files an appeal or however the next event of the drama unfolds. This is a saving grace ... many times when the cards don't give a clear indication ... they DO at least suggest when to ask again.

I need to get out from under my rock because I don't even know what case that is! 😯 Maybe I'll do a reading on it after some research and see what it says! There's enough real world legal drama going around for some good practice 😂

 

11 minutes ago, Misterei said:

The clients usually aren't so happy about it ... but at least they know I'm 100% honest.

This is key, what would you rather have, a client who is told anything in the quest to be accurate/correct and who still ends up unhappy with the reading? Or a client who will walk away knowing you're honest with yourself and them especially in sensitive topics such a law? 

In some ways this speaks to the virtues of justice. Remaining fair and balanced when reading yourself and others. 

 

19 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Yes. I nearly always use RWS for clients b/c 6 wands I can literally point to the card and say, "look it's a victory parade" and the client instantly sees that.

That makes total sense! Whenever I've had clients I use my noblet and have to stop and explain everything all the time. I need to dust off my RWS for ease of purpose 😂

[caliway]

This is such a very good question. Here's my understanding:

Judgement is short for "Judgement Day" which is the coming of souls to answer for all their karma. It is also the summoning of souls, and often shows an angel blowing a trumpet, calling the souls forth. To me, Judgement is strongly linked with spiritual or true calling, and alignment with your true path. This is what your own soul calls for, what its here to pursue.

Justice is also linked with karma, it's the pursuit of equal and balanced societies. It's like Society's desire to come to a natural and equitable, utopian state like it has the potential to. Justice is like a homing beacon or magnet pulling all society (and all the people in it) towards equal relationship- and sometimes the law is in league with this, and sometimes it isn't. 

[TarotSparks]

I think that the justice card is probably more about applying rules/consequences to situations. I think the judgement card is more about taking a broader view of the situation and seeing the good and bad in a situation.

 

Justice is the “law of equal treatment” for all people according to the rule of law. Judgement, however, could be a legal issue where the legal system rules on the validity of a claim.

People can make claims. Justice is an outcome of a claim. Judgement is the adjudication of a claim.