Preferred Method For Playing Cards?

[Scandinavianhermit]

3 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

 The one my grandfather had was one of those that were ascribed to wise Finns. I believe the book that is claimed to be after a “Finngummas efterlämnade papper” is what the deck ”finngubbens spåkort” are based on. 

Aye. First edition 1915: https://libris.kb.se/bib/3004660

Many later editions or printings. 

 

[Raggydoll]

13 minutes ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

Aye. First edition 1915: https://libris.kb.se/bib/3004660

Many later editions or printings. 

 

Yes, but I can’t get hold of it since it’s in the royal library in Stockholm. Maybe at some point I’ll come across someone who has it and is willing to scan it! 

[Scandinavianhermit]

3 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Yes, but I can’t get hold of it since it’s in the royal library in Stockholm. Maybe at some point I’ll come across someone who has it and is willing to scan it! 

It was reprinted in (I believe) cheap paperback editions many times, so it ought to exist in numerous copies, unless poor quality of the cover caused the copies to fall apart.

[Raggydoll]

1 minute ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

It was reprinted in (I believe) cheap paperback editions many times, so it ought to exist in numerous copies, unless poor quality of the cover caused the copies to fall apart.

That should be the case but I’ve googled many times and never been able to find one available! I’ll keep searching!

 

I am so very grateful for your help, it means a lot to me! 

[Scandinavianhermit]

The method I find most intriguing among Platt's methods (copyright lapsed since long ago) is a, presumably French, method associated with Napoleon (more of a boastful selling point, than a realistic description of history, I suspect). It is certainly not  identical to the method described by Etteilla in Etteilla, ou Manière de se récréer avc un jeu de cartes (1st ed. 1770, 2nd ed. 1773, 3d ed. 1783), but it share some sort of family resemblance with that one. Whether it is derived from a common source or is an adaptation of Etteilla's method is anybody's guess.

 

CLUBS

• Ace: Joy, great wealth, good news
• Ace (reversed): Joy of brief duration
• King: A frank, liberal, affectionate, upright and faithful man, fond of serving his friends
• King (reversed): He will meet disappointment
• Queen: An affectionate woman, but quick-tempered, rather amorous, one that will yield her maiden person to a generous lover, happy and loving, will be married
• Queen (reversed): Jealous and malicious
• Jack: A clever young man, generous and sincere
• Jack (reversed): A harmless flirt and flatterer
• Ten: Great wealth, success, or grandeur
• Ten (reversed): Want of success in some small matter
• Nine: Unexpected gain, or a legacy
• Nine (reversed): Some trifling gift, you will displease your friends
• Eight: A dark person's affections, which, if returned, will be the cause of great prosperity
• Eight (reversed): Those of a fool, and attendant unhappiness if reciprocated
• Seven: A most brilliant fortune, or unexpectedly recovered debt
• Seven (reversed): A far smaller amount

HEARTS

• Ace: A love letter, or some pleasant news

• Ace (reversed): A friend's visit

• King: A fair complexion, a liberal man

• King (reversed): He will meet disappointment

• Queen: A mild, amiable woman, a great beauty

• Queen (reversed): She has been crossed in love

• Jack: A cheerful young bachelor, who dreams only of pleasure, fond of racing

• Jack (reversed): A discontented military man

• Ten: Happiness, triumph

• Ten (reversed): Some slight anxiety

• Nine: Joy, satisfaction, success

• Nine (reversed): A passing chagrin

• Eight: A fair person's affections

• Eight (reversed): A fair person's indifference

• Seven: Happy marriage, pleasant thoughts, tranquillity

• Seven (reversed): Ennui, weariness

DIAMONDS 

• Ace: A person fond of rural sports, fond of gardening. A letter soon to be received
• Ace (reversed): A letter containing bad news
• King: A fair man of a fiery temper, generally in the army, but both cunning and dangerous
• King (reversed): A threatened danger, caused by machinations on his part
• Queen: An ill-bred scandal-loving woman, unsteady
• Queen (reversed): She is to be greatly feared
• Jack: A tale-bearing servant, or an unfaithful friend
• Jack (reversed): He will be the cause of mischief and unhappiness
• Ten: A husband and wife, with great wealth, many children; a journey or change of residence
• Ten (reversed): This will not prove fortunate
• Nine: Annoyance, delay
• Nine (reversed): Either a family or a love quarrel
• Eight: Love-making
• Eight (reversed): Unsuccessful
• Seven: You will spend your happiest days in the country, and will have uninterrupted happiness
• Seven (reversed): Implicated in a foolish scandal

SPADES

 

• Ace: Pleasure
• Ace (reversed): Grief, bad news
• King: An envious man, an enemy, or a dishonest lawyer, who is to be feared
• King (reversed): Impotent malice
• Queen: A loving widow
• Queen (reversed): A dangerous or malicious woman
• Jack: A dark, ill-bred young man
• Jack (reversed): He is plotting some mischief 
• Ten: Bad import – tears, a prison
• Ten (reversed): Brief affliction
• Nine: Tidings of a death
• Nine (reversed): Departure of a near relative
• Eight: Most unlucky events – illness
• Eight (reversed): Separation, divorce, a rejected offer
• Seven: Slight annoyances, loss of a friend
• Seven (reversed): A foolish intrigue

 

 

 

[Raggydoll]

@Scandinavianhermit You previously mentioned Kille decks, and I’m curious to hear whether you’ve ever heard of people using them for divination? I recently came across a method which is surely meant more for entertaining but I nonetheless thought it was interesting, especially since several of these symbols are used in other traditions.

The method is in the first part of this book. Some of those verses are really funny and you can’t take them seriously. But it made me wonder if there are other, perhaps more serious, sources on Kille divination. 

 

[Scandinavianhermit]

2 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

@Scandinavianhermit You previously mentioned Kille decks, and I’m curious to hear whether you’ve ever heard of people using them for divination?

No, I haven't heard of any divinatory use of Kille/Cambio. This was something of a surprise to me.

 

3 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

I recently came across a method which is surely meant more for entertaining but I nonetheless thought it was interesting, especially since several of these symbols are used in other traditions.

(...) Some of those verses are really funny and you can’t take them seriously. 

Which raise the question: What IS cartomancy? I believe people have approached this activity in a number of ways through the years. To some, it is a parlour game intended to raise some laughs after dinner or during coffee break. To the Occultist end of the spectrum, there are highly convoluted and dead serious correspondences behind at least taromancy. Persons prone to paranoia or suffering borderline personality disorder oughtn't consult a cartomancer or even let a friend tell their fortunes, because they will not necessary be able to handle the experience constructively. 

[Scandinavianhermit]

I do no longer remember where I read it, so take it or leave it, but somewhere I picked up the idea, that the Sixes may be read in this manner:

• Six of Diamonds: The future; Journey in the countryside.
• Six of Hearts: The past; Honeymoon, or cruise, or sailing, ferry, archipelago.
• Six of Spades: An envoy; Travel by railway, or journey motivated by bad news.
• Six of Clubs: Present time; Business trip, or journey motivated by studies, or air trip.

There might exist some influence trickling over from tarot on playingcard cartomancy in this arrangement of keywords, but two of the means of transportation are modern.

[akiva]

4 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

I'm not sure if @Raggydoll has mentioned this in another thread, but a very widespread Swedish system, first attested in 1791, is limited to the use of a 24 card deck:

Wow thanks for sharing this! I found another system that uses 24 cards a while back, it's a Polish system. They use 9's instead of 6's and the meanings are a bit different, but it's so interesting to see another method of 24 😁

[Sar]

There is a Swedish system?

[akiva]

10 minutes ago, Sar said:

There is a Swedish system?

There's methods for many countries: Sweden, England, France, Germany, Russia, Poland, to name just a few. They all have different styles and practices but some overlap! 😊

[Raggydoll]

33 minutes ago, Sar said:

There is a Swedish system?

Yes, several! I have come across a handful of different Swedish systems by now, and we have a few decks with keywords and illustrations that are built on those systems. Like this 36 card deck from the 1930s (images borrowed online)

 

 

 

there is also an old hand painted deck based on meanings that was used by a famous Swedish fortune teller in the 1800s. Several of the illustrations are based on Swedish sayings and puns, so you kind of have to know Swedish to understand it 😊
 

(This is from my self printed copy)

 

[Raggydoll]

5 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

No, I haven't heard of any divinatory use of Kille/Cambio. This was something of a surprise to me.

 

Which raise the question: What IS cartomancy? I believe people have approached this activity in a number of ways through the years. To some, it is a parlour game intended to raise some laughs after dinner or during coffee break. To the Occultist end of the spectrum, there are highly convoluted and dead serious correspondences behind at least taromancy. Persons prone to paranoia or suffering borderline personality disorder oughtn't consult a cartomancer or even let a friend tell their fortunes, because they will not necessary be able to handle the experience constructively. 

To me, the important thing is that the reading is useful and relevant. It doesn’t have to be serious, I don’t mind lighthearted stuff. But I personally don’t want it to be mere entertainment with no practical use or no actual bearing on the querent’s circumstances. 

[Raggydoll]

33 minutes ago, akiva said:

There's methods for many countries: Sweden, England, France, Germany, Russia, Poland, to name just a few. They all have different styles and practices but some overlap! 😊

Yeah, this is such fascinating stuff 🥰 I love comparing these methods and keywords! 

[akiva]

5 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

Persons prone to paranoia or suffering borderline personality disorder oughtn't consult a cartomancer or even let a friend tell their fortunes, because they will not necessary be able to handle the experience constructively. 

Is this your opinion? Or the opinion of the Occultists? BPD is a broad spectrum disorder, it can't be generalised in such a way as it manifests differently in each individual. 😊

[Scandinavianhermit]

1 hour ago, akiva said:

Is this your opinion? Or the opinion of the Occultists? BPD is a broad spectrum disorder, it can't be generalised in such a way as it manifests differently in each individual. 😊

You've got a point there. We are all individuals. I have a few bad experiences, though, of persons who really shouldn't come close to cartomancy, because they do not react well to it. Divination isn't meant to replace rational decisions, nor is it worth it if it decrease wellbeing.

[Scandinavianhermit]

2 hours ago, Sar said:

There is a Swedish system?

I mentioned the oldest Swedish (24 card) one (attested in 1791) above, but, as @Raggydoll says, there exist several parallel Swedish systems of cartomancy, now threatened by extinction because of the impact from US Games, Lo Scarabeo and Grimaud.

[Scandinavianhermit]

5 hours ago, akiva said:

Wow thanks for sharing this! I found another system that uses 24 cards a while back, it's a Polish system. They use 9's instead of 6's and the meanings are a bit different, but it's so interesting to see another method of 24 😁

I'm grateful for the information. There might be a common root for both, perhaps.

[Raggydoll]

30 minutes ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

I mentioned the oldest Swedish (24 card) one (attested in 1791) above, but, as @Raggydoll says, there exist several parallel Swedish systems of cartomancy, now threatened by extinction because of the impact from US Games, Lo Scarabeo and Grimaud.

Yes. I am making a big list comparing all the swedish keywords and methods that I have come across. I am seeing patterns, but there is definitely more than one system. I have noticed that two separate systems have been ascribed to Mamsell Arfvidsson, one that uses 52 cards and one that uses 36 cards. The latter is the basis for the 1930s fortune telling deck that I showed previously. The 24 card method is separate from these two. Then there is also the method that is behind the 36 card deck from the late 1700s. And the 32 card method from Trefnadens källa. I might be forgetting about one or two (that I am aware of), but basically, there are definitely several methods out there! 

[Scandinavianhermit]

9 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

And the 32 card method from Trefnadens källa. I might be forgetting about one or two (that I am aware of), but basically, there are definitely several methods out there! 

I'm not aware of the method from Trefnadens källa. Beyond those you mention, there are a few additional ones in Sibyllans hemligheter. Do you include the "Finngumman"/"Finngubben" method among those you mentioned here?

[akiva]

44 minutes ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

I'm grateful for the information. There might be a common root for both, perhaps.

If want I can share the Polish version? It's a bit more elaborate than the swedish version, with combinations and all sorts!

 

10 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

I have noticed that two separate systems have been ascribed to Mamsell Arfvidsson, one that uses 52 cards and one that uses 36 cards.

Do you think that she's Sweden's answer to Marie Anne Le Normand? Much like how Russia has Madame Recamier and Catherine 🤔

[Scandinavianhermit]

Just now, akiva said:

If want I can share the Polish version? It's a bit more elaborate than the swedish version, with combinations and all sorts!

 

Do you think that she's Sweden's answer to Marie Anne Le Normand? Much like how Russia has Madame Recamier and Catherine 🤔

Yes! Exactly so! Mlle Arfvidsson was allegedly consulted by king Gustavus III and his brother the duke of Sudermannia (who later became king Charles XIII). Verdi included such a scene in his opera Un ballo in maschera (1859).

[akiva]

1 minute ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

Yes! Exactly so! Mlle Arfvidsson was allegedly consulted by king Gustavus III and his brother the duke of Sudermannia (who later became king Charles XIII). Verdi included such a scene in his opera Un ballo in maschera (1859).

Wow you're really knowledgeable! Cartomantic history is really fascinating.

 

Regarding Madame Recamier and Catherine, they're both attributed to paysans divination in Russia, even though neither of them actually practiced it! 😯 As far as I know they were French socialites, I'm not sure how their names became advertising gimmicks.

[Raggydoll]

26 minutes ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

I'm not aware of the method from Trefnadens källa. Beyond those you mention, there are a few additional ones in Sibyllans hemligheter. Do you include the "Finngumman"/"Finngubben" method among those you mentioned here?

Trefnadens källa is available online, it too is ascribed to Mamsell A, but it is different from the other methods. I don't still have Sibyllans hemligheter, would it be possible for you to show me some of those methods? The ones from Finngumman/Finngubben has drawn upon multiple of the older sources, so its more of a mix (though it aligns fairly well with the 24 card method, only that it has additional cards). What is interesting about it is that it has both upright and reversed meanings for 36 cards. All the cards and their keywords can be seen here: https://kartomanti.wordpress.com/2015/04/04/finngubbens-spakort/

 

I am also looking at the deck from the late 1700s that belonged to Fagra Lisa. I am trying to figure out if it uses one or more systems (or if it draws upon personal interpretations). I think it has some stuff in common with Mamsell A's 52 card method, but also some with the Finngubbe method. For example, in Mamsells list she has falseness for the 7 of spades, and in the old deck there is a depiction of a man meeting a woman, and the man has a fox behind his ear ('räv bakom örat'). And on the 6 of spades there are two illustrations (the card is double ended) with one depicting a 'bondfångare' and the other a little child in front of a Pro Patria building. This aligns somewhat with the meanings from Finngubben (Upright: Sad journey. Unpleasant meeting. Reversed: Miserable road). But it is probably mostly a system on own. 

[Raggydoll]

39 minutes ago, akiva said:

 

Do you think that she's Sweden's answer to Marie Anne Le Normand? Much like how Russia has Madame Recamier and Catherine 🤔

For sure! They also ascribed a lot of stuff to 'wise Finns'. I guess they made more sales that way!