Removing "Negative" Cards?

[KiMo]

I've been trying to get my head around this. I suppose I understand why readers would do it, but I certainly don't agree with it!

 

Does it boil down to a need for control? When life is painful and uncertain, sometimes it's easier to wrap ourselves in a blanket and tell ourselves everything's warm and cozy and ok, rather than be receptive and do the work to look at aspects of our lives from all angles.

 

Where's the opportunity for growth in that? I thought about the Hero's Journey, and how at every step of the way there is a challenge that presents itself in order to push the hero further along their path of learning. And just like the tarot, those challenges can present themselves in any number of nuanced and multilayered ways. 

 

I mean, the people that choose to do this when reading tarot likely watch films and TV shows, they likely read books... They wouldn't watch a film or read a book where nothing happens because they're too worried about confronting the challenges faced by the characters, would they?

 

I'm not really saying anything that hasn't already been said by others, but I felt compelled to say something and not just pass by with a 

 

[Chariot]

Hmm.  I have mixed feelings about this topic.  I have never removed cards from my deck—and, like everybody else, have received the Death card umpteen times and I'm still here!  However, I recently was helping somebody learn the tarot who was absolutely terrified of the Death card.   She said that intellectually she knew it meant ending, rebirth, necessary change ... all the good stuff ...but whenever she saw it, she was emotionally convinced it meant actual 'Death' and was unable to see beyond that interpretation.  Death, as in "a hearse rumbling by with a loved one on it."

I couldn't disabuse her of the notion that it means physical death, because I couldn't promise that it NEVER means physical death ...because, VERY occasionally, it does. (It has happened twice to me, in the nearly 50 years I've been learning and  using tarot.)  My friend has a family member with a life-threatening illness now in remission, has recently lost a favourite relative to a premature death, and she herself has had a difficult time with her own health ...auto-immune issues. And she had another close family member who 'disappeared' and is presumed dead.  So her terror of death is real.

She was very interested in learning the tarot, however, and didn't want to shy away from other unpleasant cards.  It's just Death she was terrified of.  So I told her it was okay to simply remove that card from the deck altogether, if that made the difference between learning and using tarot, and not doing so.  Some day she may become adept enough at readings to want to incorporate Death back into the deck.  But if she doesn't, I don't see any harm in this.  It would be different if all she wanted was fluffy readings, but that's not the case with her.  She's perfectly willing to grapple with life's difficulties and disappointments. But Death scares her too much to be rational about receiving it.

Personally, I would love to see the Death card depicted less often as a grim reaper or skeleton figure, trampling over corpses.  Occasionally a deck does a different kind of depiction, and does it fairly well.   It's not the concept of final endings that scares people, it's Death that scares people.  

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Chariot

[Minotaur]

Major Arcana readings leave out 56 cards. They work fine.

Those who don't read reversals leave out 78 reversals.

LeNormand has 36 cards.

Sometimes size matters... sometimes it doesn't.

 

I have removed a card from a deck just once. It is from Ethony's wonderful "Modern Love Tarot". It is the ten of swords. It shows a man walking out of a room. On the table are divorce papers and his wedding ring.

 

It is way, way too harsh. It allows very little flexibility in interpretation. If you are working with the most common question, "My guy left me, will he come back?", you will destroy hope with that card 100% of the time. The reader can spin the meaning all they want, the sitter won't believe you. There is also no way that will be right often enough to justify the anguish the sitter will experience.

 

That picture from that ten of swords will stick in their mind. The death of love is the worst kind of death. You wouldn't tell someone they are going to die from the death card...this ten of swords is the death card for love.

 

I took the card out of the deck and now I love the deck.

 

 

[AmnisArtis]

I'm not sure why, but this thread got me thinking about decks made up of cards from different decks.

Basically, by picking out ones favorite cards from different decks and putting them all together.

 

This would mean that one would have either a majors only deck, or a full deck, with different art styles and details in the cards, and would not be an "incomplete" deck, which it would feel like with certain cards simply removed.

 

Another thought that has also been mentioned before, and that I've given some time to linger, is that the tarot will deliver the message that is meant to be delivered regardless of which cards may or may not be missing. It has more to do with how open the reader is to the symbols and hints, than the cards themselves.

[Mikhalia]

3 hours ago, Chariot said:

Personally, I would love to see the Death card depicted less often as a grim reaper or skeleton figure, trampling over corpses.  Occasionally a deck does a different kind of depiction, and does it fairly well.   It's not the concept of final endings that scares people, it's Death that scares people.

 

There are many many decks that do not depict it as a reaper. I think one of my favorite ones that has actually made Death look beautiful is Shadowscapes. I decided to look through the four decks I had sitting next to me and found out of four decks I had two that were not reapers. The other two decks were RWS and Thoth LOL. I added a picture of the two for you.

 

Maybe suggest a different deck if you have another student with issues about the Death card.  Thankfully, there are still a lot of decks out there that stick to the basic symbols used by TdM, Thoth or RWS so despite not having certain things painted they still convey the base meanings.

 

Speaking from personal experience I almost never learned how to read tarot, my very first deck and I did not agree. I just saw absolutely nothing in it, sadly to this day I still see nothing when I try and use the same deck. 

 

The left side is Shadowscapes which has taken any symbolism of death out but still implies it by using the Pheonix and the right side is Universal Celtic deck which while still, a dark card does not evoke the same feelings the scythe-wielding skeleton would.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Mikhalia

[Chariot]

11 hours ago, Mikhalia said:

 

 

 

The left side is Shadowscapes which has taken any symbolism of death out but still implies it by using the Pheonix and the right side is Universal Celtic deck which while still, a dark card does not evoke the same feelings the scythe-wielding skeleton would.

That Shadowscapes one is EXACTLY what I mean, when I say I wish there were fewer decks with the grim reaper.  That's definitely not a scary card.  However, I do think the concept of 'final, long-overdue ending' is worth keeping, if we could  make it less scary to the uninitiated.

For me, the Death card is actually a good card to get, because it nearly always means something is gone that SHOULD be gone, and maybe has been hanging around too long.  What happens next (the Phoenix) isn't really the point for me, I reckon.  The relief is that the thing, event, situation is GONE for GOOD.  But that grim reaper?  It's not a reassuring image, unless you're longing for death.  

The only deck I've got that doesn't feature a 'death' type of figure is the Gregory Scott Tarot ...the Death card for that one is quite peaceful. (Illustrated below.)  I'm just not sure that it depicts the notion of something coming to a final end either, but at least it's not scary.  The Light Seer's Tarot has a reasonably okay Death image (a red cloak with a vista of trees where the skeletal face usually is).  It's also marked Death and Rebirth. But it's still got that reaper-ish look to it. I wonder if any decks exist with a trash can image?  That might be fun....or a bin lorry driving away with your discarded stuff in it.  🙂

I'll keep eye peeled for decks that do Death differently.  I don't need them, but it might be nice to be able to recommend them.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Chariot

[AmnisArtis]

Apologies for leaving out images, but I did a quick check on a few of my decks and found three with an alternative version of the death card.

 

The Housewives Tarot - A jar of expired "Real salmonella".

Robin Wood Tarot - Red robes instead of black, and a flag with a white rose on it, showing a path through the woods.

Vanessa Tarot - A goth lady holding a cigarette in one hand and a skull in the other, looking rather relaxed.

 

Three very different styles, and I'm sure there are plenty more.

The Day of the Dead Tarot for one, where the card shows a pregnant woman, but then all the other cards have the skeletons.

Also, the Robin Wood does have a few full frontal cards in it, so it depends on how relaxed you are with nudity.

[Mikhalia]

6 hours ago, Chariot said:

I wonder if any decks exist with a trash can image?  That might be fun....or a bin lorry driving away with your discarded stuff in it.  🙂

 

I looked through my collection and did not have any trash bins but I did find one that portrays both aspects in a more modern setting (the man with boxes who knows those could be things he intends to throw away). This is the So Below side of Barbara Moore's As Above So Below deck. It shows them putting their house up for sale and their house is all gloomy and sad looking but next door the neighbor's house is the red of rebirth with him loading the back with boxes.

 

I would prefer to keep a darker theme as well because that change is never easy and the querent needs to know this too.

 

4 hours ago, AmnisArtis said:

Three very different styles, and I'm sure there are plenty more.

 

Thank you for sharing! I love the Day of the Dead tarot 🙂

 

[Chariot]

52 minutes ago, Mikhalia said:

 

I looked through my collection and did not have any trash bins but I did find one that portrays both aspects in a more modern setting (the man with boxes who knows those could be things he intends to throw away). This is the So Below side of Barbara Moore's As Above So Below deck. It shows them putting their house up for sale and their house is all gloomy and sad looking but next door the neighbor's house is the red of rebirth with him loading the back with boxes.

 

I would prefer to keep a darker theme as well because that change is never easy and the querent needs to know this too.

 

 

Thank you for sharing! I love the Day of the Dead tarot 🙂

 

I JUST found and ordered this deck, the So Below deck, just before I saw your post.  Yes.  While I'm not enamoured of the artwork in this deck, that's exactly the kind of image I would like to be able to use for the Death card in certain circumstances. Exactly.  Thanks for sharing that.  I await the arrival of my deck with a great deal of excitement.

 

Just checked out The Housewives Tarot, @AmnisArtis - and I must say I love the concept of the jar of spoiled mayonnaise.  Yep.  Definitely reached the end of its life a while ago, and needs to be thrown away. I'm not terribly fond of the deck as a whole, but I really like the idea of that image.  I have the Robin Wood tarot, and while yes, the red-cloaked figure of Death is a bit less scary than the usual black reaper, it's still a 'reaper' and when the card is labeled Death, I think people who are scared of the image will still see it as 'death of a person.'  I'm not familiar at all with The Vanessa Tarot ...I'll need to look that up.  Thanks for the suggestions. 🙂

Edited March 27, 2023 by Chariot

[Mikhalia]

42 minutes ago, Chariot said:

I JUST found and ordered this deck, the So Below deck, just before I saw your post.  Yes.  While I'm not enamoured of the artwork in this deck, that's exactly the kind of image I would like to be able to use for the Death card in certain circumstances. Exactly.  Thanks for sharing that.  I await the arrival of my deck with a great deal of excitement.

 

I am a MUCH bigger fan of the As Above side of this set. I don't use the So Below for anything, it just does not speak to me very well despite being much more modern symbolism. I have found that it does make a great comparison of the As Above side in explaining the physical side of the reading when reading for others though!

 

Did you order the full set or just the So Below side?

[gregory]

I love using BOTH of them !

[KiMo]

The Death card in the Lonely Dreamer Tarot comes to mind for me...

 

 

It depicts the death of the Buddha, and although the creator did choose to state that the card is about transition and rebirth, I feel that this isn't actually so explicit in this image, at least not compared to some other cards I've seen. This is a clear end to a major cycle, but it's portrayed quite gently and philosophically. It's a release, albeit whether we like it or not.

[Chariot]

23 hours ago, Mikhalia said:

 

I am a MUCH bigger fan of the As Above side of this set. I don't use the So Below for anything, it just does not speak to me very well despite being much more modern symbolism. I have found that it does make a great comparison of the As Above side in explaining the physical side of the reading when reading for others though!

 

Did you order the full set or just the So Below side?

Just the So Below, because I was interested in getting the unusual Death card.  The As Above deck looks good as well, but it can wait a bit.

[Mikhalia]

10 hours ago, Chariot said:

Just the So Below, because I was interested in getting the unusual Death card.  The As Above deck looks good as well, but it can wait a bit.

Awesome! The As Above is definitely a different kind of deck which is why I think I love it. Keep me posted on how the So Below works for you 🙂

[Chariot]

1 hour ago, Mikhalia said:

Awesome! The As Above is definitely a different kind of deck which is why I think I love it. Keep me posted on how the So Below works for you 🙂

Will do.  In fact, the artwork in the As Above deck is really attractive, and I may well end up getting it.  I'm not a deck collector, but I'm open to a new deck that offers a different approach that I might find helpful.  I am not crazy about what I've seen of the artwork in the So Below deck—seems a bit commercial and superficial—but the grounded concepts are very useful.  I'm quite pragmatic in my approach to tarot, and I like to cut to the chase, and deal with the here and now, if possible.  This deck certainly has promise.  I've been told my deck should arrive tomorrow. Eeeee.  I am really looking forward to it.

[gregory]

What's SO good is using them together. Try drawing a card and then finding the corresponding one on line, till you cave and buy it !