Is tarot about guidance or fortune telling?

[Misterei]

20 hours ago, Aeon418 said:

If the present moment is the outcome of all past causes, does a predictive Tarot reading ... just make me aware of the "razor edge" of the present?

This is certainly part of it. A REALLY SHARP, CLEAR perception of the present is the best predictor of the near future. We often turn to cards because we know or sense we're not seeing all there is to see in a present situation.

 

@Aeon418 says <<But have I not already influenced the chain of events with the Tarot reading itself, which instantly becomes another past cause behind the next present moment?! And did I even have a choice in the first place? >>

 

Advance physics says something along the lines of: the observer of any phenomena might subtly change the phenomenon simply by observing it.

So there's that.

Self-fulfilling prophesy is an old and powerful question. OTOH we have fixed karmas. Fate we can't change. For example the wars or earthquakes.

OTOH we have mutable karmas ... fortunes we CAN change from our attitudes and actions. The trick is knowing the difference, n'cest pas?

 

13 hours ago, akiva said:

Does this not assume time is linear, as in A-B? What if time is simultaneous/integrated and we just perceive is linearly because of our ego?

In my experience time isn't linear at all ... which is one reason I think predictive readings can work. We PERCEIVE time as linear because it's a convenience to get workers to the office on time or keep the busses on schedule ... but time itself is circular or cyclical or something I don't quite have words for. Altered states of consciousness allow us perceptions of so called past or future ... but everything is really just now.

7 hours ago, Tanga said:

... Intuition and psychic are the same thing imo - just on a different part of the scale.

And being on different parts of the scale - may, or may not mean, that one can suitably push along the scale with practice (more imo).

well said. We get bogged down in marketing language sometimes.

For example now it's fashionable to call oneself an "intuitive". 20+ years ago you called yourself a "psychic"

But if we get past marketing ... we're always talking about that "something extra" humans use to try to get a grip on the future.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Misterei

[Aeon418]

55 minutes ago, Misterei said:

In my experience time isn't linear at all ... which is one reason I think predictive readings can work. We PERCEIVE time as linear because it's a convenience to get workers to the office on time or keep the busses on schedule ... but time itself is circular or cyclical or something I don't quite have words for. Altered states of consciousness allow us perceptions of so called past or future ... but everything is really just now.

 

I can't locate the exact quote right now, but there's a place where Aleister Crowley says all events happen simultaneously. But to make them intelligible the Self has to experience events as if they were a linear sequence in time. Although he doesn't say so, this could account for the possibility of predictive readings with Tarot. However there is almost no room for Free Will in this. Crowley himself thought Free Will was an illusion. Paul Foster Case agrees on this too in his Tarot writings.

 

The notion that we can gain a glimpse of the future through Tarot and then choose an alternative future course does not work within the context of simultaneous events. The "fortune telling" view of Tarot presupposes that we are detached and objective observers of phenomena and events with an ability to pick and chose between alternative paths. But if we are in reality one with the events we experience, then the only place for Free Will is to better align ourselves with the unfolding flow of our lives, rather than resisting and obstructing all the time. In this context Tarot is potentially a useful guide to the present moment and how best to achieve a better alignment between ourselves and reality as it 'appears' to unfold before us. This is the resolution of fate and free will that Crowley termed True Will.  

[akiva]

8 hours ago, Misterei said:

In my experience time isn't linear at all ... which is one reason I think predictive readings can work. We PERCEIVE time as linear because it's a convenience to get workers to the office on time or keep the busses on schedule ... but time itself is circular or cyclical or something I don't quite have words for. Altered states of consciousness allow us perceptions of so called past or future ... but everything is really just now.

I was taught it's the ego that alters our perception of time and space. It's the opposite of the subconscious which is there to integrate us with the whole.

 

I'm of the camp that because everything is simultaneous but we perceive time as linear, that this is why we can do future readings. We wouldn't be able to if your subconscious reigned supreme (though we wouldn't need to).

 

6 hours ago, Aeon418 said:

The "fortune telling" view of Tarot presupposes that we are detached and objective observers of phenomena and events with an ability to pick and chose between alternative paths.

This is the part I don't understand though... Because surely if you do a reading on the present you're still detaching from and objectively observing phenomena/events and picking and choosing how to respond to them?

Edited November 15, 2023 by akiva

[Aeon418]

3 hours ago, akiva said:

This is the part I don't understand though... Because surely if you do a reading on the present you're still detaching from and objectively observing phenomena/events and picking and choosing how to respond to them?

 

If that were truly possible everyone could do a reading, choose a better life, and throw their cards to the winds without a care in the world. But, oddly enough, everyone is still here shuffling their cards and hoping for better fortune.

 

Picking up a Tarot deck does not exempt anyone from the chain of cause and effect. The very act of reading is still within the web of causes and conditions. But a more germane question might be; what caused you to pick up the deck in the first place? The knee jerk reaction of the ego-self is "I did. I am an objective observer of my life. I am in control. I choose the direction of my life." But that begs the question; why do you need Tarot then?

 

So how does Tarot work and what is the point? Tarot is one way among many that provides an opportunity for a much deeper (and greater) part of ourselves to make itself known to us. A part of ourselves that actually is outside the web of causes and conditions. But also a part of ourselves that really did choose the life we're leading right here, right now and nowhere else. This last point can be a very bitter pill to swallow, particularly when circumstances are difficult.

 

Tarot offers us a means whereby we can begin to become receptive to this deep impulse behind our lives and begin to align ourselves with it in a way that is deeply authentic and helps us to work with the life we have, rather than frantically struggling against it and bitterly blaming fate for everything that does not match up with what we think our lives should be like. Ideally Tarot is for life, rather than an escape from it. But instead Tarot is all too easily subverted by the desires of the personal self that revolves around its limited perception of I and Me and Mine. The personal self that believes it is in control of everything and can pick and choose among the threads of fate because it always knows best, or at least it thinks it does. All the while oblivious to the fact that it's puppet strings are being pulled into picking this and choosing that under the mistaken belief that this is free will.

 

Quote

 

“The Great Way is not difficult,

It merely avoids picking and choosing.”

 

The "Great Way" may be trying to make itself known to us through Tarot. But how receptive are we to it? Especially when it is not what we want to hear.

[akiva]

4 hours ago, Aeon418 said:

Tarot offers us a means whereby we can begin to become receptive to this deep impulse behind our lives and begin to align ourselves with it in a way that is deeply authentic and helps us to work with the life we have, rather than frantically struggling against it and bitterly blaming fate for everything that does not match up with what we think our lives should be like.

You can do this by doing predictive readings? The very act of seeking to understand what's round the corner (to me) is working with life.

I can't speak for other predictive readers, but I certainly don't find reading for myself or others to exist in these binary vacuums of either-or. Predominantly they'll be future focused, but there's always elements of "how do I best deal with that" type supplementary readings. 

 

The esoteric tarot movement kind of scoffed at using the cards for fortune telling, basically calling it lesser than. But that always felt like a bit of an ego trap in it's own right. Is there a true one way? Or is it down to the individual to explore reality (tarot) as they see fit? Assuming free will of course! 😁

[Misterei]

16 hours ago, Aeon418 said:

... Aleister Crowley says all events happen simultaneously. But to make them intelligible the Self has to experience events as if they were a linear sequence in time. Although he doesn't say so, this could account for the possibility of predictive readings with Tarot. However there is almost no room for Free Will in this. Crowley himself thought Free Will was an illusion. Paul Foster Case agrees on this too in his Tarot writings.

Yes. This Reality of the ETERNAL NOW vs. our limited human perception which must break it down into bite-sized chunks of "linear time". Exactly.

 

The question of Free Will I see as much more nuanced. Gurdjieff taught that most people do NOT have free will even though they think they do. However, he felt that through certain practices, humans could EVOLVE to have some free will. Perhaps this is similar to Crowley's "True Will".

 

I look toward Hindu / Vedic philosophy for a nuanced take on this and how it relates to Tarot predictions. For example humans are subject to Fixed Karma [can't change it], semi-fixed karma [a really advanced soul with a lot of effort could change it] and mutable karma [fairly easy to change]. This depends on the notion that the universe is not only ALL TIMES happening now ... but also ALL POSSIBLITITLES happening now.

 

Can a tarot prediction help you change a fixed karma? No.

Can it help you change a mutable karma? Sure.

For example a person may have fixed karma with alcoholics. Always they get an alcoholic spouse or lover. This will never change. But what MIGHT change is that they could connect with a SOBER alcoholic ... by making some efforts at personal growth and good decisions. By heeding a message that Tarot tells them to go to an Alanon meeting [or whatever] and their love life will improve.

 

@Aeon418 says

<<The notion that we can gain a glimpse of the future through Tarot and then choose an alternative future course does not work within the context of simultaneous events. ... Free Will is to better align ourselves with the unfolding flow of our lives, rather than resisting and obstructing all the time. In this context Tarot is potentially a useful guide to the present moment and how best to achieve a better alignment between ourselves and reality as it 'appears' to unfold before us. This is the resolution of fate and free will that Crowley termed True Will. >>

 

Yes ... this is similar to the Karmic approach I ascribe to. I see these ideas as nuanced, complex, and difficult to reduce into language. But, yes. Well said.

[Misterei]

8 minutes ago, akiva said:

... The very act of seeking to understand what's round the corner (to me) is working with life.

I can't speak for other predictive readers, but I certainly don't find reading for myself or others to exist in these binary vacuums of either-or. Predominantly they'll be future focused, but there's always elements of "how do I best deal with that"...

The esoteric tarot movement kind of scoffed at using the cards for fortune telling ...But that always felt like a bit of an ego trap ... Is there a true one way? Or is it down to the individual to explore reality (tarot) as they see fit? Assuming free will of course!

LOL I actually DON'T assume free will [see reply to Aeon] ... but yeah ... denigrating 500 years of fortune tellers who lived and died reading tarots before you were ever born ... IS pretty arrogant };>

[Sar]

I am all about good old fashioned fortune telling. 

[Guest]

Ever since i was a kid, the fascination the Tarot held for me was in how it could be used to divine the future. So yes, for me it's about fortune-telling. It can provide guidance by talking you what the future holds and what steps you can do to manifest a different outcome. 

[Barleywine]

On 10/12/2023 at 8:32 AM, gregory said:

 

Yes. Why do we have to decide this stuff ? It's not about choices, it;s about reading the cards.

Amen! The question and the context will tell us whether the sitter is after advice or predictive insights, and the cards will respond to their input. (I generally do only face-to-face readings, and the querent must participate in the process.)

[Pio2001]

Hello,

There seems to be many ways to use the tarot. The question is not only between telling the present or telling the future. It is also between giving advice or no advice. Some even use tarot as a tool that asks questions instead of giving answers.

But the thing in common is the interpretation of the cards.

 

Let's take an example with just one card.

The question would be "how can I talk to my father without having a fight about politics"? And the card would be Death. In order to simplify, let's assume that the card means "stop talking with your father". Although it can, of course, be interpreted in many other ways.

 

The fortune teller would say "if you go on like this, you will soon become unable to talk with your father anymore" (in the future).

The psychologist would say "your problem is that you can't have a conversation with your father" (in the present).

The coach would say "stop talking with your father" (advice)

The introspective reader would say "what if you stopped talking with your father ?" (question)

 

One interpretation. Four different approaches. 

 

[Ryokan]

Insight comes in various ways.  Tarot is often associated with fortune-telling in the sensational sense of the word.  Movies, novels and end-of-pier readers have propagated a stereotypical perspective based on magical happenings and tall, dark strangers awaiting your arrival.  Divination tools help us to connect with our own inner knowing, they can also be used to help others to discover their own inner knowing and divinity. I am often reminded of the Delphic inscription 'Know Thyself' and prefer to use this as my guide to all forms of oracular knowledge.  

[RickInBakersfield]

I find this thread fascinating!

 

I am starting to take a second look at fate & destiny. There is no doubt that the cards are predictive and the querents are wanting to take a peek into the future. 

 

I have always placed responsibility in the hands of the sitter and not in the hands of fate. Most of my tarot books are written that way (the psychological style) and that's had a big influence on me. But some of you make good points for the old school method of fortune telling.

 

Maybe I should on the next few readings just try out the predictive approach and see for myself what comes of it. Maybe for me it's a combination approach of the two styles. Then I'll come back here and comment more.

 

Rick,

 

 

[Deian]

Quote

Lately, I have been feeling that Tarot is mirroring me and reflecting my subconscious more than telling me about the future.

 

Same thing, though. There are schools that call that the"the mirroring process" and by definition it is happening both in our subconscious and in events around us. Its also resonating from something larger, but that will need to go into stuff like what science calls "Gaia hypothesis",  to go into. But its not really needed for this, its just both of these, even though its also a lot more.

There is more to how it works on this levels as well, for example things we don't like usually suggests there is something we need to understand/know there, while things we like point to hidden strengths we can develop. That is just how part of it all works, so its both at the same time, events that happen are based on our subconscious and at specific parts of the way that can be used for prediction.

 

In most cases we can easily recognize it in ourselves, yet since most people aren't used to follow how events spring out from themselves they may find it harder to find its reflection in what happens, be that now or in the future. Work of a good divination system is to take care of that for you, if it doesn't then can only be tool for knowing yourself, but that is good as well.

 

 

Quote

If I dont want to encounter a situation and ask for the future outcome, the resultant card would be a No. If I do want to encounter the situation, the resultant card would be a Yes. And this is when I do the same reading twice, but a week apart. And in the end, I end up in a third situation.

 

Would recommend not asking yes and no questions, until you have system that you can very clearly follow into why its "yes" or "no". As it turns out almost all questions would be neither yes nor no. So there have to be a way to be able to read "why", otherwise the answer will be very misleading way too often.

[FindYourSovereignty]

On 7/25/2024 at 1:29 PM, RickInBakersfield said:

Maybe I should on the next few readings just try out the predictive approach and see for myself what comes of it. Maybe for me it's a combination approach of the two styles. Then I'll come back here and comment more.

@RickInBakersfield, how has this research been working for you?

 

1 hour ago, Deian said:

In most cases we can easily recognize it in ourselves, yet since most people aren't used to follow how events spring out from themselves they may find it harder to find its reflection in what happens, be that now or in the future. Work of a good divination system is to take care of that for you, if it doesn't then can only be tool for knowing yourself, but that is good as well.

This is interesting.

[moni]

Great question. I am hearing this a lot lately too..

 

In my experience, it’s been a great tool for guidance. In my own personal circumstances, when I have read for myself, I often see the cards as how I interpret them in the moment of that reading. What I mean is, for example, if I have done a 3 card, past, present, future spread, I have often found the following:

 

The Past card has been the events that played out that bought me to asking the question in the first place.

 

The Present card has accurately shown my current situation and sometimes the elements contributing/surrounding it.

 

Interestingly, the Future card, whether negative or positive, and dependent on the question I have asked, serves more as an indicator of what will happen if I choose to continue as I am without changing something, or what could potentially happen if I did.

 

It’s a good way to get a wake up call sometimes.. 😅

 

Regarding telling the future.. Who knows? Maybe this is really possible - maybe I am far less experienced on this journey than others. Knowing the world we live in, I genuinely think it may be possible..

[Guest]

For fortune telling or future detection you would need a natural born oracle, so I would say it is more about the guidance and if there is a solid grasp of future events in a receipt that would be a good bonus. 

[Rose Lalonde]

Is a hammer for building a shed or for hanging art on the wall? (I'm not trying to sound flippant -- it's a good discussion!) That's how I see the question, because I think of tarot as a tool, and it will be what you make of it and what you're currently capable of. 

[bianc]

that's too much of a deep question,

but for me, personally, it's for guidance. once in a while here and there I do fortune telling,

but I prefer to not dwell on it exclusively to fortune-tell, the tarot has failed me some times when i tried to ask about the future, but in other times it predicted some things in extreme accuracy.

 

(also, the only two times i got a "wrong" answer, the matter of the reading was love.

im not lucky in love at all, so maybe this is something to blame instead of the cards.)

So at the end, tarot can really be about fortune telling, but my love just isn't very fortunate lol

Apart from that, all the other predictions i made happened.

so.. idk, just follow your heart.

 

 

[moni]

On 12/5/2024 at 10:00 PM, Rose Lalonde said:

Is a hammer for building a shed or for hanging art on the wall? (I'm not trying to sound flippant -- it's a good discussion!) That's how I see the question, because I think of tarot as a tool, and it will be what you make of it and what you're currently capable of. 

.. 😮

 

Sorry but this is such a great perspective.

 

I love that! This comment really struck me..!!

[bianc]

On 12/5/2024 at 7:00 PM, Rose Lalonde said:

Is a hammer for building a shed or for hanging art on the wall? (I'm not trying to sound flippant -- it's a good discussion!) That's how I see the question, because I think of tarot as a tool, and it will be what you make of it and what you're currently capable of. 

never thought of it that way, this actually makes so much sense????

[gregory]

On 12/5/2024 at 10:00 PM, Rose Lalonde said:

Is a hammer for building a shed or for hanging art on the wall? (I'm not trying to sound flippant -- it's a good discussion!) That's how I see the question, because I think of tarot as a tool, and it will be what you make of it and what you're currently capable of. 

 

EXCELLENT analogy.

[222]

i find it much more useful for shadow work and insights into daily life, rather then seeing into the future. i believe time is subjective and the future is always changing, so future telling wont be very accurate. i have gotten two future readings correct for myself though so it is possible, just wouldnt rely on it everytime. 

[Simooo_designs]

I think that tarot reading is more of a guidance tool than fortune telling tool. It provides us with glimpses of potential outcomes not certainties about the future since its reflecting your inner state and external circumstances.

[Skaye]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:03 AM, Guest said:

Lately, I have been feeling that Tarot is mirroring me and reflecting my subconscious more than telling me about the future.

 

I do understand that the future is not set in stone and that things can change according to our energies. But sometimes with the readings I feel hopeless because it mostly shows me what I want to see. If I dont want to encounter a situation and ask for the future outcome, the resultant card would be a No. If I do want to encounter the situation, the resultant card would be a Yes. And this is when I do the same reading twice, but a week apart. And in the end, I end up in a third situation.

 

I think what I am trying to ask if you can ever rely on the 'future outcomes' that tarot shows you? Is Tarot really about predictions or is it about reflecting your subconscious? If it is about predictions, how far into the future can it predict? If it is about the subconscious reflection, that what even is the point of Tarot other than getting clarity on your thoughts and feelings?

 

On 9/22/2023 at 11:03 AM, Guest said:

Lately, I have been feeling that Tarot is mirroring me and reflecting my subconscious more than telling me about the future.

 

I do understand that the future is not set in stone and that things can change according to our energies. But sometimes with the readings I feel hopeless because it mostly shows me what I want to see. If I dont want to encounter a situation and ask for the future outcome, the resultant card would be a No. If I do want to encounter the situation, the resultant card would be a Yes. And this is when I do the same reading twice, but a week apart. And in the end, I end up in a third situation.

 

I think what I am trying to ask if you can ever rely on the 'future outcomes' that tarot shows you? Is Tarot really about predictions or is it about reflecting your subconscious? If it is about predictions, how far into the future can it predict? If it is about the subconscious reflection, that what even is the point of Tarot other than getting clarity on your thoughts and feelings?

I also feel this. A lot of times when I’m doing a reading for myself I always get a mirror back on what I’m feeling at that moment rather than a proper outcome or guidance at times. Sometimes I’ll be frustrated and keep drawing cards which result in my deck being like c’mon I don’t want to answer your question and giving me cards like the hanged man. It can be annoying especially when you are hoping for some clairvoyance on a topic. I supposed they can’t let us know everything can they.