FOLLOWING a SYSTEM....or JUST THE IMAGES?

October 7, 2023

I was having a conversation with a friend about tarot decks that follow no system, if the images didn't have a number or title, one would never know what the card was supposed to be (I see this often in theme decks). Decks that are more like an oracle to me, but just numbered like tarot.

He said he doesn't need a system or titles, he interprets them himself. I found this really interesting as I have yet to find an oracle (honestly haven't looked really hard, but would like to find an oracle I can work with) I can work with and decks that don't follow a system, to me are basically oracles, you use your intuition. I KNOW some oracles have a book and descriptions, but it doesn't seem as hard and fast as tarot or Lenormand.

WHICH got me wondering, how many here like systems, at least basically, as in giving certain cards some semblance of a meaning, but that can be interpreted in ANY way. Like the Death card, CAN mean something coming to end, can mean different things, but I usually see it as an ending, but why have names, images, a system at all, if any card can mean absolutely anything. UNLESS....

There are those here who just go TOTAL INTUITIVE. That. let's say, The Hermit, could mean anything at any time.

I would love to hear how you read, how much the images, systems affect anything, if you're totally intuitive, or a mix of both.

TT and M-ers?

Edited October 7, 2023 by GreatDane

October 7, 2023

I go by the images almost exclusively, however, while there are oracles I love, I generally prefer tarot due to the underlying meanings. When things aren't as clear from the images, the position of the card itself can help. Plus, to someone working with magic and correspondences, there is a difference to one (or several) systems being used by many to oracles which all differ from each other.

October 7, 2023

I guess if someone uses intuition alone, that's their system. Your post made me wonder if you generally use the cards for just readings or with spells mostly?

October 7, 2023

I follow the RWS system, but the images on the cards in different decks do alter how I feel them, sometimes—unless they are more or less neutral RWS clones without anything much else added to them.

Death can be grim in some decks (like the original RWS image), but in others less so. The image will influence what I believe the 'end' feels like in the given context. Will it be difficult, unwanted—I hate losing that, but it's gone forever, suck it up! Or maybe a relief—thank goodness THAT'S finally over and I can move on. Or unexpected—omg, what just happened! Or planned for—I finally sold the house, or got rid of that extra junk. I get a different feel, depending on the image on the card.

October 7, 2023

I get it, Chariot! That's how I see Death as well.

For me, context, position of the cards obviously can alter meanings. I find it very interesting HOW readers go about interpreting the cards, where the system, even if loose or basic ends and whether it's used at all. I know we all must interpret the cards and how we interpret can vary.

I know intuition, working with the cards, plays into using a system.

I'm just interested in readers processes.

October 7, 2023

5 hours ago, GreatDane said:

I was having a conversation with a friend about tarot decks that follow no system, ... He said he doesn't need a system or titles, he interprets them himself. ...

WHICH got me wondering, how many here like systems, at least basically, as in giving certain cards some semblance of a meaning, ...

There are those here who just go TOTAL INTUITIVE. That. let's say, The Hermit, could mean anything at any time.

Warning: I'm going to sound very Judgement and King of Swords god help me 😉

Tarot is a SYSTEM to which you must apply INTUITION. That's the whole point.

Readers who IGNORE 500+ years of history and traditional meanings to just impose their own special snowflake intuition? Lazy.

Readers who never get beyond their book-learned system to flex a bit of intuition? Limited.

I've studied ALL [nearly all?] the systems and deck types. RWS, TdM, Thoth, Tarocchi. Numerology, Kabbalah, Astrology, Geometry, NeoPlatonism, Christianity, Judaic, Pagan, Alchemical, Hermetic, Vedic [yes its there].

The systems add a depth of knowledge and understanding which is a PLATFORM to support intuition.

One without the other is like spaghetti without marinara sauce.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Misterei

October 7, 2023

Misterei, you are preaching to the choir 🙂 Sure, I use intuition, but I follow RWS system. Just the system that I like and works for me. So I will never argue with you about the post! I loved the last sentence, well, I use marinara sauce 🙂

Not dissing ANYONE who reads with just intuition if that works for them, but FOR ME, well, like your sentence Tarot is a SYSTEM to which you must apply INTUITION. JUST me, so don't come for me those who just read intuitively!

October 8, 2023

7 hours ago, GreatDane said:

I guess if someone uses intuition alone, that's their system. Your post made me wonder if you generally use the cards for just readings or with spells mostly?

Both. More readings I think but i don't keep track.

October 8, 2023

Thank you, Arania! I just found your post intriguing and was wondering.

October 8, 2023

Tarot itself is a system. Each card is different because it is specifically designed to guide the intuition in a certain direction. Readers who claim that any card can mean anything need to ask themselves why they bother with Tarot at all. They would be better off with 78 blank cards onto which they they can project anything they want as the mood takes them.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Aeon418
Typo

October 8, 2023

5 minutes ago, Aeon418 said:

Tarot itself is a system. Each card is different because it is specifically designed to guide the intuition in a certain direction.

This is lovely way to put it. The cards guide the intuition.

@Aeon418 <<Readers who claim that any card can mean anything need to ask themselves why they bother with Tarot at all. They would be better off with 78 blank cards onto which they they can project anything they want as the mood takes them.>>

October 8, 2023

I generally read the guidebook for the particular deck being used, look at the image and see what resonates, as with an oracle deck, but have occasionally gone with just an image as in the Intuitive Study Group exchanges. The underlying systems, mythological and occult references confuse me and I’d rather use decks of factual, scientific information I can be confident of understanding and then produce the meanings by analogy. Like an arrangement not arbitrary, but necessitated by the structure of the universe, and in particular of the Solar System 😏.

October 8, 2023

38 minutes ago, Misterei said:

This is lovely way to put it. The cards guide the intuition.

Ideally the imagery of a well designed Tarot card should elicit certain thoughts and feelings that are in harmony with the image. It's almost as if you resonate in sympathy with the imagery. And it is this sympathetic resonance that enables the intuition to flow naturally in the direction being suggested by a particular card. Provided a reader is sufficiently open to visual imagery it should still work, even if they are ignorant of the system that informs the deck they are using. Having said that, all of us have a propensity to see what we want to see based on our own prejudices. Having some knowledge of the system behind a deck can help to correct this tendency that would otherwise misdirect the intuition.

October 8, 2023

I do a combination of both. Sometimes I will do one or the other depending on what my intuition is telling me, but I'll often do a bit of both. I'm all for the idea of moving beyond solely sticking to the book meanings, but the book meanings do provide a solid foundation. Spending time looking at cards intuitively though, not only opens up more avenues for interpretation, but if you can spend time with the images of the traditional RWS cards in particular, like I have done in reading exchanges, you'll likely find you gain a deeper understanding, as well as a deeper connection to the cards.

Regardless of which deck I use though, I can often add some interpretive flare to my readings. Maybe the characters in two particular cards seem to be facing one another. Maybe I'll get something such as the Pentacles in one card seeming to continue the line of Pentacles in another. There are multiple fun and interesting ways to interpret cards that go beyond just looking at the book meanings that depend largely on which combinations of cards come up, which deck I'm using, and the position and placement of cards, as well as a healthy dose of intuition.

For me intuition goes beyond just imagery too. I will pretty much always observe which suits come up, which don't, and which seem to be the most represented, as that tells me things such as a lot of Swords indicating a need to approach a situation logically, and an absence of Cups indicating that there is no need for emotional advice for the present inquiry. A lot of reversals to me indicates a lot of blocked energy, especially if a reading comes up entirely reversed, and that there is something beyond the individual meaning of each card that is causing that block if it applies across the whole or majority of the spread (referring to at least 75-80%). Conversely, an entirely or mostly upright spread indicates free-flowing energy. A single card being upright while the rest are reversed could be an indication of the key to removing a block.

I often do very basic numerology, though nothing to the extent that many others seem to (not to mention other things I've heard people do that are over my head). If I notice that cards tend to have similar numbers, or be multiples of one another for example, I might make note of that. A lot of low-numbered cards, or high-numbered cards could mean something too, as could a bunch of Majors or Court Cards. Cards of one type seemingly being flanked on either side by cards of another type tend to be another pattern I look at. Of course, I only explore most of these alternate avenues if there is enough of a pattern in the reading to really make an inference. I won't bother looking at a numerical pattern if there doesn't seem to be one, for example.

October 12, 2023

If I was handed an oracle deck of X number of cards, none of them divided into a major/minor arcana, suits, or a court, could I provide a reading for myself or someone else that would be as helpful or informative as a traditional tarot deck?

Probably. I would want to spend some time with that deck to study the cards and play around with it for a couple of days before using it to read for other people. I'd study the images and decide for myself what each card expressed and probably journal about them all.

Is this something I have ever done for my own pleasure and curiosity?

Nope. 🙂

But it does sound fun and interesting to try!

October 14, 2023

As usual, I find your answers so interesting. Not just the answer, but the why/thoughts behind it!

I don't generally keep the box or the lwb because I only use decks I can read using RWS system. I'm just interested in the cards, because in the end, it's just me and them 🙂

Sometimes I will take a look, especially if a book, not lwb, and some of the cards/images follow RWS but may be a little different and I want to see what the author's take on that particular card or cards.

I like being in my comfy zone. VERY happy with RWS and Lenormand. I'm just happy and if it ain't broken...IF I felt the need to expand to other types of cards I would, but I just don't.

October 14, 2023

On 10/12/2023 at 6:34 AM, Laurelverse said:

If I was handed an oracle deck of X number of cards, none of them divided into a major/minor arcana, suits, or a court, could I provide a reading for myself or someone else that would be as helpful or informative as a traditional tarot deck?

Probably. I would want to spend some time with that deck to study the cards and play around with it for a couple of days before using it to read for other people. I'd study the images and decide for myself what each card expressed and probably journal about them all.

Is this something I have ever done for my own pleasure and curiosity?

Nope. 🙂

But it does sound fun and interesting to try!

Funny you should mention it. When I first started reading using only the images, and said that on the whole I found using prior knowledge kind of inhibited me, I was pooh-poohed all over, and told I should use oracles and stay out of tarot;, leave it top REAL readers - and why didn't I just read birthday cards or magazine images. To do justice to myself, I tried all those. Didn't get A THING. But from TAROT cards..... Good luck, @Laurelverse - do give it a shot !

October 14, 2023

I've changed my mind on this topic more than any other over the past 20 years. When I was learning, I learnt the system and then had to find the confidence of my intuition. I learnt by learning a lot of reference stuff in books. Then I read someone on Aeclectic who said they wish they hadn't learnt all those basics of the system and the foundation of each card. Then I thought, just take any card, even with no knowledge and say what you see and feel!

I've changed my mind again! Call me Temperance but I now think the best interpretation is a little of both! I think I am a really skilled reader of symbolism (it's one of the few things I am naturally good at in life!), like I look at art and can read why the symbols were included for that message. I use it all the time outside of divination. But you cannot read a card without knowing the system and the reason it is there. You might be able to do one or two cards with just looking at the cards and giving your personal impressions but I think you cannot use a lot of cards or do a spread. Like why did the 4 of Swords come up? The foundation and system is important as well as reading what you see! You can get too trapped in the learnt meanings, it's not a personal reading if you just write all the traditional meanings. But also I think you need a bit of system! Those cards have a purpose to represent the position where they are in the deck 🙂 . Many oracles have their own systems as well! The perfect interpretation is a balance of understanding the basic system and intuitively reading what you see / feel / comes to you.

October 14, 2023

45 minutes ago, gregory said:

... When I first started reading using only the images, and said that on the whole I found using prior knowledge kind of inhibited me, I was pooh-poohed all over, and told I should use oracles and stay out of tarot;, leave it top REAL readers - and why didn't I just read birthday cards or magazine images. To do justice to myself, I tried all those. Didn't get A THING. But from TAROT cards.....

This brings up an interesting point.

I *DO* believe that Tarot has an intelligence of its own. A "soul" or an "independent consciousness", if you will.

It's a 600 year old ... what ...? We might almost call it an AI in our day and age. I don't know exactly what it is or what words might define it.

I suspect English doesn't exactly have a word for what Tarot is.

Egregore comes from the Greek ἐγρήγορος, egrēgoros 'wakeful'.

So maybe that's the word I would use.

For me ... study puts me in touch with Tarot's Intelligence / egregore. It helps me learn the grammar and syntax of its language.

Perhaps you feel a direct, intuitive pipeline to it.

The mean treatment you received seems harsh ... otoh I have seen posters on reddit who are clearly clueless and NOT connecting with Tarot's egregore speaking meanly against those who actually study.

*sigh* Humans.

October 14, 2023

44 minutes ago, Misterei said:

This brings up an interesting point.

I *DO* believe that Tarot has an intelligence of its own. A "soul" or an "independent consciousness", if you will.

It's a 600 year old ... what ...? We might almost call it an AI in our day and age. I don't know exactly what it is or what words might define it.

I suspect English doesn't exactly have a word for what Tarot is.

Egregore comes from the Greek ἐγρήγορος, egrēgoros 'wakeful'.

So maybe that's the word I would use.

For me ... study puts me in touch with Tarot's Intelligence / egregore. It helps me learn the grammar and syntax of its language.

I've often pondered this! Do you believe that tarot as a generic 'entity' has an individual consciousness/soul/etc, or that the person who uses a deck kind of creates this Egregore like being bound to the deck?

It's almost like when you're studying a deck, or a system/meanings and using it repetitively, over time it's almost like you're creating a servitor or local spirit which then bonds with you/the deck.

For me, most of the time I'm a system learner. I connect to a deck through study. I tend to like my cards to have specific meanings and then intuition comes into play when combining them together for a reading 😊

October 14, 2023

23 minutes ago, akiva said:

I've often pondered this!

LOL true confessions of Tarot geeks ...

@akiva << ...Do you believe that tarot as a generic 'entity' has an individual consciousness/soul/etc, or that the person who uses a deck kind of creates this Egregore like being bound to the deck?>>

I think Tarot itself has a consciousness / egregore / intelligence. Its different decks are all nodes that might connect a human to Tarot's Central Intelligence which is probably non-localized and non-material at this point. We connect to the Central Intelligence / Egregore using our deck as nodes for the connection.

@akiva <<It's almost like when you're studying a deck, or a system/meanings and using it repetitively, over time it's almost like you're creating a servitor or local spirit which then bonds with you/the deck.>>

I tried actually "charming" a deck once. Meh. In the end I had to burn the deck, too, b/c the magick got stale and icky. So i don't think of it as a servitor or local spirit [but chacon a son gout if you do]. To me the deck is a node or a telephone that's "wired" to connect with Tarot's grand egregore. Some decks are like an iphone ... work great for me. Other decks are like an android ... and I give them away };>

@akiiva <<For me, most of the time I'm a system learner. I connect to a deck through study. I tend to like my cards to have specific meanings and then intuition comes into play when combining them together for a reading >>

Well to fully milk the iphone analogy ... to me ... learning the system is like really knowing all the iphone's features and capabilities. I mean, yes I can make a phone call without reading the manual ... but i can also do SO MUCH MORE when I read the manual.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Misterei

October 14, 2023

14 minutes ago, Misterei said:

LOL true confessions of Tarot geeks ...

Haha, don't you just know it 🤣

13 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I think Tarot itself has a consciousness / egregore / intelligence. Its different decks are all nodes that might connect a human to Tarot's Central Intelligence which is probably non-localized and non-material at this point. We connect to the Central Intelligence / Egregore using our deck as nodes for the connection.

That's interesting, do you think it could be a spirit? Or more like a 'source' kind of concept. I think the golden dawn attributed the angel HRU to tarot cards, though I'm probably miss remembering.

18 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Well to fully milk the iphone analogy ... to me ... learning the system is like really knowing all the iphone's features and capabilities. I mean, yes I can make a phone call without reading the manual ... but i can also do SO MUCH MORE when I read the manual.

Exactly! I do love my Tarot equivalent to iphone manuals as well 😁

October 15, 2023

1 hour ago, akiva said:

... do you think it could be a spirit? Or more like a 'source' kind of concept. I think the golden dawn attributed the angel HRU to tarot cards, though I'm probably miss remembering.

I think I read something along these lines. But i find GD tiresome ... so dont pay as much attention as I should 🙄

Personally? No. I don't think of it as an angel.

I'm drawn to the idea of an evolving AI that became conscious ... even though I hate AI the way it's being used today.

If the Tarocchi Trionfi were created to hide NeoPlatonic and Alchemical secrets in plain sight ... under a veil of Christianity to fool the inquisition [not everyone accepts this concept ... but I do] we have something that was intentionally created to preserve specialized knowledge about the human psyche.

This "something" survived for 600 years and is still with us ... fairly intact [the egregiously awful modern decks notwithstanding].

Did the "something" become conscious at some point? Back to the Greek word ἐγρήγορος, egrēgoros 'wakeful'.

I personally believe this "something" developed a consciousness and it communicates with humans through its many nodes of decks.

The decks are just ink and paper ... machines ... but they help us "talk" to the "something" that started out as data storage ... but awakened.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Misterei

October 15, 2023

On 10/12/2023 at 6:34 AM, Laurelverse said:

If I was handed an oracle deck of X number of cards, none of them divided into a major/minor arcana, suits, or a court, could I provide a reading for myself or someone else that would be as helpful or informative as a traditional tarot deck?

If you could find an oracle deck with images / keywords that made immediate sense to you, matched the way you see the world and your background knowledge. Many of them focus very strongly on a particular theme and most tend to have fewer cards than a tarot deck. The Sustain Yourself deck with 101 cards might have some potential.

October 15, 2023

Thinking about tarot and egregores at the same time hits my happy place ❤️

When I first started reading as a 15-16 year old and ignorant of most occultism besides a little Wicca and astrology, I had a Voyager tarot deck. I loved that Voyager deck, it was my prize possession and I spent so much time with it, looking at the pictures, reading the little book, journaling and talking to it. There was a connection between me and that particular tarot deck that made it special in ways that very well fit the concept of an egregore coming into existence. When it was willfully destroyed because the "Satanic Panic" of the 80s came crashing like lightning into my tower, I was beyond devastated.

I never bonded the same way with anything else quite the same way. I am not sure if I'd agree that Tarot itself as some `thing' encompassing all things tarot has a distinct consciousness / egregore / intelligence but that's just an opinion based on my own paradigm. If the planets, the sun, the moon all have distinct consciousness / egregore / intelligences then maybe tarot offers a way to communicate on some level with such things and all of them are just drops in the ocean of the Divine and in the greater scheme of things, both pieces of paper depicting such things and such things are conduits for the same Force-given-Form!

FOLLOWING a SYSTEM....or JUST THE IMAGES?

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