FOLLOWING a SYSTEM....or JUST THE IMAGES?

[Laurelverse]

27 minutes ago, Serpentwand said:

If you could find an oracle deck with images / keywords that made immediate sense to you, matched the way you see the world and your background knowledge. Many of them focus very strongly on a particular theme and most tend to have fewer cards than a tarot deck. The Sustain Yourself deck with 101 cards might have some potential.

What I was thinking was finding (or making) an oracle deck that was only pictures.  No keywords, no names, no suits or numbers.  It would need to be at least 40 cards and preferably less than 90.  But to see if I could use such a deck with the same proficiency that I'd have with a classic tarot, nothing to work off besides the images. I think so?


But there's a lot to be said for having systems.  I was blown away when I took a year to study the Tarot de Marseilles using authors like Alejandro Jodorowsky and Yoav Ben-Dov, learned the French system after decades of learning everything else!  It taught me to pay close attention to colors and shapes in ways I never had before.  

 

[Raggydoll]

42 minutes ago, Laurelverse said:

What I was thinking was finding (or making) an oracle deck that was only pictures.  No keywords, no names, no suits or numbers.  It would need to be at least 40 cards and preferably less than 90.  But to see if I could use such a deck with the same proficiency that I'd have with a classic tarot, nothing to work off besides the images. I think so?

I once made myself a photographic Oracle deck, meant for intuitive readings. It was a very fun project. I definitely recommend making yourself a deck, it’s a powerful experience! 

[2dogs]

1 hour ago, Laurelverse said:

What I was thinking was finding (or making) an oracle deck that was only pictures.  No keywords, no names, no suits or numbers.  It would need to be at least 40 cards and preferably less than 90.  But to see if I could use such a deck with the same proficiency that I'd have with a classic tarot, nothing to work off besides the images. I think so?

I’ve just been encouraged in this month’s oracle exchange to go ahead with my idea of buying a few decks of pictorial playing cards and making an oracle deck by selecting some from each so as to have a good number of distinct images. Then I’ll ignore the suit and number markings and just read the pictures.

[2dogs]

1 hour ago, Laurelverse said:

I loved that Voyager deck, it was my prize possession and I spent so much time with it, looking at the pictures, reading the little book, journaling and talking to it.

The universe would like you to know that the Sustain Yourself cards are also by James Wanless the creator of the Voyager Tarot. The original version had a little book the same size as the cards but it was re-released this year with a proper hardbound book 😉.

[gregory]

4 hours ago, Laurelverse said:

Thinking about tarot and egregores at the same time hits my happy place  ❤️

When I first started reading as a 15-16 year old and ignorant of most occultism besides a little Wicca and astrology, I had a Voyager tarot deck.  I loved that Voyager deck, it was my prize possession and I spent so much time with it, looking at the pictures, reading the little book, journaling and talking to it.  There was a connection between me and that particular tarot deck that made it special in ways that very well fit the concept of an egregore coming into existence.  When it was willfully destroyed because the "Satanic Panic" of the 80s came crashing like lightning into my tower, I was beyond devastated.  
 

 

Coughs wickedly. There ARE copies on ebay - second edition ones are very reasonably priced.

 

11 hours ago, Misterei said:

This brings up an interesting point.

I *DO* believe that Tarot has an intelligence of its own. A "soul" or an "independent consciousness", if you will.

It's a 600 year old ... what ...?  We might almost call it an AI in our day and age. I don't know exactly what it is or what words might define it.

I suspect English doesn't exactly have a word for what Tarot is.

 

Egregore comes from the Greek ἐγρήγορος, egrēgoros 'wakeful'.

So maybe that's the word I would use.

 

For me ... study puts me in touch with Tarot's Intelligence / egregore. It helps me learn the grammar and syntax of its language.

Perhaps you feel a direct, intuitive pipeline to it.

 

The mean treatment you received seems harsh ... otoh I have seen posters on reddit who are clearly clueless and NOT connecting with Tarot's egregore speaking  meanly against those who actually study.

*sigh* Humans.

 

I have NO idea what happens - I do know that it is far harder and more cumbersome to try and use learned knowledge. And also - which we tested on AT once among other things  - I tend to get the same results as I later get if I look up all the book stuff.

 

MUST get around to setting that experiment up here....

[akiva]

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

I'm drawn to the idea of an evolving AI that became conscious ... even though I hate AI the way it's being used today.

If the Tarocchi Trionfi were created to hide NeoPlatonic and Alchemical secrets in plain sight ... under a veil of Christianity to fool the inquisition [not everyone accepts this concept ... but I do] we have something that was intentionally created to preserve specialized knowledge about the human psyche.

I get the analogy about AI and I completely agree that the older decks were hiding a system of alternative (read original) philosophical thought.

There's just way too much to show that the numbering of the majors is following a platonic/pythagorean numbering system. Though sometimes I wonder if it's some form a gnosticism.

I personally believe the information stored in the majors also points to what happens during reincarnation as we are put through this amnesia, but that's for another thread 😅

 

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

This "something" survived for 600 years and is still with us ... fairly intact [the egregiously awful modern decks notwithstanding].

 

Did the "something" become conscious at some point?  Back to the Greek word ἐγρήγορος, egrēgoros 'wakeful'.

I personally believe this "something" developed a consciousness and it communicates with humans through its many nodes of decks.

The decks are just ink and paper ... machines ... but they help us "talk" to the "something" that started out as data storage ... but awakened.

But the question remains, did something inspire someone to create the original decks through mediumship/scrying/some kind of psychic inspiration?

Maybe this Egregore existed before tarot and wanted a voice/method of communication so it used tarot as it's vehicle to do so? 

[Chariot]

Many years ago, in the mid 1990s, I ran across The Dreampower Tarot, by RJ Stewart.  It did not follow any system I'd ever encountered, and the cards had no names on them. The pip cards were pretty 'meh' ...just a picture of a leaf, or a water droplet, or a small flame, so I ended up ditching these.  However, the other cards are mesmerising. The artist is Stuart Littlejohn, and I would love to see more of his work.  (He is the husband of Josephine McCarthy, who wrote the recently-published book Tarot Skills for the 21st Century.)

I often pull a card blind, or deliberately choose a particular card from this deck to think about, meditate with, and generally engage with.  The images take me all sorts of places.  I use them a bit like an oracle deck, but I have never written down any 'meanings' attached to them, and I don't use the meanings attached to them in the book that accompanied The Dreampower Tarot.  I think the images say plenty on their own.  Here are a few:

Edited October 15, 2023 by Chariot

[gregory]

1 hour ago, akiva said:

Though sometimes I wonder if it's some form a gnosticism.

 

I wonder about that a LOT. The Gospel of Thomas makes interesting reading in that context.

 

I LIKE the Dreampower. And the pip cards are much like TdM in their unillustratedness.

 

https://rjstewart.org/readings-rjs/ - ask him about it !

[akiva]

24 minutes ago, gregory said:

I wonder about that a LOT. The Gospel of Thomas makes interesting reading in that context.

Is that reading it with the context of Tarot in mind? 

[gregory]

KIND of. It was Douglas who got me looking. And then I saw (and did not acquire) this:

https://buytarot.co.uk/the-gnostic-gospel-of-st-thomas/

 

And this, which I have dipped into.

https://ia803401.us.archive.org/0/items/meditations-on-the-tarot/Meditations on the Tarot.pdf

 

So then I read the actual thing and.... Try it !

[akiva]

5 hours ago, gregory said:

KIND of. It was Douglas who got me looking. And then I saw (and did not acquire) this:

https://buytarot.co.uk/the-gnostic-gospel-of-st-thomas/

 

And this, which I have dipped into.

https://ia803401.us.archive.org/0/items/meditations-on-the-tarot/Meditations on the Tarot.pdf

 

So then I read the actual thing and.... Try it !

Thanks for the links, I'm looking at the pdf now 😁 

[gregory]

There are also passing references in Douglas.... (also debunking the Cathar theory.)

[Misterei]

19 hours ago, akiva said:

... the question remains, did something inspire someone to create the original decks through mediumship/scrying/some kind of psychic inspiration?

Maybe this Egregore existed before tarot and wanted a voice/method of communication so it used tarot as it's vehicle to do so? 

Hmmm. We know that Enochian magic was "channeled" by Dee and Kelly.  But early Tarocchi had nothing like that going on [as far as i know].

Maybe Sola Busca had something like that happening ... but SB is its own animal. DEFINITELY a grimoire as far as I'm concerned.

 

We have the idea of the Perennial Wisdom. Ficino and della Mirandola were writing about the Prisca Theologica around the time of Tarocchi's inception.

But these strike me as a philosophy more than an awakened intellgence.

What's your take on it?

Do you think an egregore pre-existed Tarot?

 

[akiva]

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

Hmmm. We know that Enochian magic was "channeled" by Dee and Kelly.  But early Tarocchi had nothing like that going on [as far as i know].

Maybe Sola Busca had something like that happening ... but SB is its own animal. DEFINITELY a grimoire as far as I'm concerned.

I don't necessarily mean directly channeled like the Enochian system was, but there's potential that inspiration was planted in someone's mind for it to be created. More like a subtle nudge! Maybe through meditation or some kind of spiritual work?

The SB is it's own kettle of fish 🤣 I'm not sure what was going on when that was made!

 

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

We have the idea of the Perennial Wisdom. Ficino and della Mirandola were writing about the Prisca Theologica around the time of Tarocchi's inception.

But these strike me as a philosophy more than an awakened intellgence.

What's your take on it?

Do you think an egregore pre-existed Tarot?

I'll look into Perennial wisdom! And I think the question about it preexisting tarot depends on if this Egregore is unique to tarot, or if its attached to all forms of divination in general, because if it is, then it's been around since we were throwing bones and reading entrails 😯

[Misterei]

12 hours ago, akiva said:

I don't necessarily mean directly channeled like the Enochian system was, but there's potential that inspiration was planted in someone's mind for it to be created. More like a subtle nudge! Maybe through meditation or some kind of spiritual work?

If I had to try to identify an actual HUMAN VESSEL for the knowledge that eventually got encoded into the Trionfi ... my bet is on on Georgios Plethon.

I just taught a workshop on this yesterday ... it's bee my research obsession for the past 3 months if you can't tell ... I try to spare the forum folk, though };>

 

@akiva <<The SB is it's own kettle of fish 🤣 I'm not sure what was going on when that was made!>>

A LOT if you believe Peter Mark Adams 😇

12 hours ago, akiva said:

I'll look into Perennial wisdom! And I think the question about it preexisting tarot depends on if this Egregore is unique to tarot, or if its attached to all forms of divination in general, because if it is, then it's been around since we were throwing bones and reading entrails 😯

The Perennial Wisdom wouldn't be unique to Tarot. More like it exists and crops-up here and there and everywhere. But back to what I taught in the class ... there are three junctures where Tarot and Theosophy [Perennial Wisdom] connect: Hellenistic world [Alexandria], Renaissance Italy, Occult Revival. But as I said ... I try to spare the forum from this };> It's controversial and one can't make a full case in a forum post, alas.

[akiva]

13 hours ago, Misterei said:

If I had to try to identify an actual HUMAN VESSEL for the knowledge that eventually got encoded into the Trionfi ... my bet is on on Georgios Plethon.

I just taught a workshop on this yesterday ... it's bee my research obsession for the past 3 months if you can't tell ... I try to spare the forum folk, though };>

This is now going to be a research obsession of mine! 📚

 

13 hours ago, Misterei said:

The Perennial Wisdom wouldn't be unique to Tarot. More like it exists and crops-up here and there and everywhere. But back to what I taught in the class ... there are three junctures where Tarot and Theosophy [Perennial Wisdom] connect: Hellenistic world [Alexandria], Renaissance Italy, Occult Revival. But as I said ... I try to spare the forum from this };> It's controversial and one can't make a full case in a forum post, alas.

It's given me a stepping stone to jump off of though so thanks 😊 I don't see it as controversial but I can imagine it is to some people!

It's impossible not to geek out when hellenism, renaissance Italy and occult revival are used in the same sentence 🤣

[Misterei]

9 hours ago, akiva said:

... I don't see it as controversial but I can imagine it is to some people!

It's impossible not to geek out when hellenism, renaissance Italy and occult revival are used in the same sentence 🤣

LOL me too.

But to the 100% secular  crowd ... those who take Dummett as gospel ... they're having none of it };>

Still ... I had 25 students in class ... plenty of people enjoy an open-minded approach and some fact-based speculation into the possibilities.

[akiva]

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

LOL me too.

But to the 100% secular  crowd ... those who take Dummett as gospel ... they're having none of it };>

Still ... I had 25 students in class ... plenty of people enjoy an open-minded approach and some fact-based speculation into the possibilities.

Tbh I didn't know that there was a Dummett crowd 😅 but it makes sense, there's crowds for everything else. If we didn't challenge beliefs constructively, and we didn't have variation in our individual approach with card reading methods, everything would be so sterile. There would be no room for possibilities!

[Misterei]

4 hours ago, akiva said:

Tbh I didn't know that there was a Dummett crowd 😅 but it makes sense, there's crowds for everything else. If we didn't challenge beliefs constructively, and we didn't have variation in our individual approach with card reading methods, everything would be so sterile. There would be no room for possibilities!

We do owe a debt of gratitude to the secular historians like Dummett. Tarot history was so rife with fraud back in the day ... but now with the internet democratizing research and making more facts available to all ... I think we've come full circle to where we can consider occult powers in Tarot without relying on fraud ... but approach it in a more balanced way.

[gregory]

Dummett is no Evangelist ! But it is VERY good stuff on which one can build with the help of others, like Giles, Douglas, Farley, Pollack et al. And given the climate at the time, I can SO see where he was coming from.

[akiva]

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

We do owe a debt of gratitude to the secular historians like Dummett. Tarot history was so rife with fraud back in the day ... but now with the internet democratizing research and making more facts available to all ... I think we've come full circle to where we can consider occult powers in Tarot without relying on fraud ... but approach it in a more balanced way.

I completely agree. Dummett paved the way for others to tread. We have so much more information available to us, which keeps growing and growing and can be shared near instantly. The story of the history of tarot is definitely not closed and shut. 

 

I don’t think we will ever know for sure if tarot has an egregore attached to it. It will be something that probably remains a relative truth and down to the individual to explore. But those are the best kinds of truths, because they have many rabbit holes!

It's all part of the allure I guess. And if you've got classes that are 25 strong then that allure is still there for many people! 😁

Edited October 18, 2023 by akiva

[Laurelverse]

On 10/14/2023 at 9:56 PM, Raggydoll said:

I once made myself a photographic Oracle deck, meant for intuitive readings. It was a very fun project. I definitely recommend making yourself a deck, it’s a powerful experience! 

I followed your advice and spent Sunday and Monday making myself a 52 card whimsical, animal themed oracle deck using the Midjourney art rendering program and was blown away with the results.  I sent the PNGs off to a printer and when I get the result in 2-3 weeks, I will post it somewhere and explore what its like to use an image-only deck created without any kind of esotericism built it, that nevertheless seems to have a "spark" to it despite being AI-generated.  I was caught off-guard how powerful and interesting the images turned out and looking forward to the next stage of the experiment, actually doing readings with it.

 

[Laurelverse]

On 10/15/2023 at 1:51 AM, gregory said:

Coughs wickedly. There ARE copies on ebay - second edition ones are very reasonably priced.

Oh indeed.  In fact, I have one.  But I never bonded with the replacement Voyager deck the same way as the one that was destroyed.  It felt like I'd lost not just something but someone when my parents destroyed the Voyager deck I'd invested so much love and intention too.   The conversation about tarot and egregores made me think of it.  Did I cause that particular set of cards to become more than just laminated paper with pretty pictures?  Did it have an Intelligence or Spirit?

... maybe.

I didn't know enough about Real Magick back then to do anything like that on purpose; I hadn't processed until we all started this conversation why I'd never intentionally created a familiar or egregore once I knew how.  I just chalked it up to being a really lazy armchair magician 75% of my time as an occultist vs. an avid intentional practitioner of Real Magick, lol.  But looking back on it, it suddenly seems like that event had a lot more impact than I ever realized when I was younger and less knowledgeable and wise.

[Laurelverse]

On 10/15/2023 at 10:10 PM, Misterei said:

Maybe Sola Busca had something like that happening ... but SB is its own animal. DEFINITELY a grimoire as far as I'm concerned.

That is my thought too.  The more one studies Medieval and Renaissance alchemy and looks into art from alchemy treatises , the more one can decipher the images and symbols in Sola Busca-based decks.  Classical alchemy utilized a lot of classical astrology, its impossible to talk about the first without the latter.  I'm pretty sure the Sola Busca was not a tool of cartomancy, but intended for scholarship and esotericism.    The Busca-Serbelloni family was very much a product of their times and I don't recall if the Sola Busca was produced before or during the lifetime of Maria Vittoria Ottoboni, who was an exceptionally cultured woman and famous for her political-literary salon but I -think- it might have been commissioned for her, by her, or at least for one of her ancestors and she was involved in its safe keeping and preservation.   A true tarot scholar rather than a dilettante like me might know. 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Laurelverse

[Sar]

If there is a system I use it to orientate me around the spread, with Tarot I use intuition too.