Court Cards Used As Significator

[Tom]

I learned tarot by studying books by Eden Gray and others.  Ms. Gray says in her book that hair color of the seeker should match the hair color correspondence of the specific suits. For instance a Sword court card for a dark brown haired person. I often find that a card going by hair color alone doesn’t fit the quarant personalities.  Like I might have a very artistic dreamy person whose hair is dark brown (Swords) but a rather a Cups court card instead.  So I choose based on their personality trains rather than the tarot definition.  In the reading itself I pay more attention to hair colors.  

 

How do you feel about this topic?  Of course sometimes a Major seems to suit the seekers personality better, in which hair color doesn’t mater. I rarely use them (if at all) for significators though, but they seem better in certain circumstances.

[tetragrammaton]

I've never heard of using hair color as an identifier before, and to be honest that's not a method I would use.

 

My memory is fuzzy, but I believe I got my technique partly from "Liber Q: Tarot Symbolism & Divination". For Thoth tarot, princes and princesses are for younger people while queens and knights are for older people. Princesses can mean children, while princes can mean teenagers but I usually use princesses for girls and princes for boys. For the RWS deck, I consider pages to be children, knights to be teenagers, queens and kings to be adults. Queens are women, kings/knights depending on the deck are men.

 

I choose the element based on the sun sign. Almost all people know their birth date but a good amount does not know their birth time, so it's easier. If one knows their birth time, rising sign can be used or with a quick calculation you can find the dominant element on their chart.

 

 

[Tom]

@tetragrammaton thanks for the advice.  I have mostly learned Tarot from the books of Eden Gray, but I am trusting my intuition more just definitions in a book.  To me the court cards are represented to me as:

 

Page: a young person but not over 21, who can be children or teens

Knight:  A adult male who is full of energy not yet hitting middle age

Queen: An adult woman

King:  A mature older man

 

Obviously there isn’t a wrong answer I guess.  One has to go with one’s gut feelings regarding these things.

[akiva]

Historically people would be called 'spade coloured' or 'club coloured', even outside of cartomancy and it was a reference to their hair/eye colour. So when a significator was picked based on hair colour it was placed down either before the spread was laid (think celtic cross), or searched for within the spread and used to count cards from (a traditional horseshoe spread).

When you use a card as a significator this way it loses its meanings and becomes a placeholder. So it isn't actually read. The personality of the querent wasn't important in selecting the card.

 

When reading a card that's not a significator hair colour doesn't matter as much and a lot of the time it'll be the personality that comes through (as you have experienced it). There's no right or wrong though, it's always what works best for the reader 😊

[Chariot]

I've never actually used a significator that I've picked ahead of time.  Sometimes I 'deal' one along with the other cards; in fact I used to do this as a matter of course.  I don't nowadays, though.  But I've had a reading done by an expert who DID use a pre-picked court card significator, and she was spot-on.  So I guess it's just one of those things that works for some people and not for others.  

The court cards always seemed skewed in favour of men and boys, though.  Until quite recently there was only one in the four who was pictured as female.  That used to kinda put me off.  Nowadays, though, there are so many decks that have corrected that anomaly.

[DanielJUK]

Yep, if you read any old book's description, this was the method used but this is a very out-dated way of choosing a signficator in today’s progressive standards and led to a #tarotsowhite campaign.

The cards are highly white person biased with European hair textures and styles. When I first came to tarot in my teens in the early 90's this as a thing, but when I came back to it after a break, it's starting to be ignored.

 

Wands Courts have Dark blondey light Brown/ red hair and a Fair to Olive Complexion

Cups Courts have Light Blonde hair and a Pale to Olive Complexion

Swords Courts have Black Hair and Pale Complexion

Pentacles Courts have Dark Brown to Black Hair and Dark Complexion

They also have eye colours and body shapes which tend to be the same to the suits as well.

 

This means if you are Black or South Asian you have to be Pentacles! . Also what happens if you are Mixed Race?

We do have more diverse decks now with the modern decks but still, I think you can't base the cards on physical attributes, we are just too complicated!

 

So this is really a thing of the past now. It's much better to choose one that fits the person in some way. You could use the personality descriptions, I think I am the Queen of Cups by her qualities. But some people use the astrological attributes as well.

 

[Tom]

@Chariot In my studies the pages can be sexually ambiguous.  In some recent decks I've seen pages depicted as females.  I guess I'd rather leave them gender neutral in a reading and see whether I'm feeling its a boy or a girl.  I've also seen the Page replaced my a "Maiden" card I guess to specifically have two males and two females.  

[Tom]

I have always read Celtic Cross lay outs, though I want to diversity.  An oracle book I am reading suggests the same thing as mentioned above--that the significator is taken out of play.  I do feel that it givens a point of reference as to the context of whom the reading is about--so it's helpful to me.

[Misterei]

9 hours ago, Tom said:

I learned tarot by studying books by Eden Gray and others.  Ms. Gray says in her book that hair color of the seeker should match the hair color correspondence of the specific suits. For instance a Sword court card for a dark brown haired person. I often find that a card going by hair color alone doesn’t fit the quarant personalities.  Like I might have a very artistic dreamy person whose hair is dark brown (Swords) but a rather a Cups court card instead.  So I choose based on their personality trains rather than the tarot definition.  In the reading itself I pay more attention to hair colors.  

 

How do you feel about this topic?  Of course sometimes a Major seems to suit the seekers personality better, in which hair color doesn’t mater. I rarely use them (if at all) for significators though, but they seem better in certain circumstances.

When I started learning Tarot 45 years ago ... that was all I had. 1 plaid-back RWS deck and my trusty Eden Gray Tarot Revealed book. And that was *it* for many years until I found a couple other books.

 

Even whilst following Eden Gray's word as the Gospel ... I stopped using Courts as a significator for the Querent. It just seemed stupid. I know what the Querent looks like. I don't really need this card. Plus as a baby reader ... I read mostly for myself, anyway.

 

Today I still don't use Courts as a Significator for the client [a la Gray and AE Waite before her]. It still strikes me as unnecessary.

 

I have a whole system for Courts as People, though.

One PART of my system identifies Courts as People based on Ayurvedic type. This can be applied to any race or nationality. For example Wands = fire = pitta type in Ayurveda. Pitta people of ANY NATIONALITY have certain characteristics. They often have reddish, ruddy, or flushed skin. Medium body type, etc. etc.

 

A West African woman PITTA [wands] type will have reddish skin relative to her nationality and family. Perhaps she dyes her hair blond, or there's a reddish tint to her dark brown hair. Her build is medium. Her VATA [swords] brother has the same basic skin and hair color ... but he has a yellow or greenish undertone to his complexion and a thinner build. Her hair is oily, his is dry. A Skandanavian PITTA [wands] type has red or blond hair and ruddy skin, [perhaps sunburnt] relative to HIS nationality and family. His Kapha [cups] sister has pale white skin and avoids sunburn. Her build is heavier. Her hair is thicker.

 

I take each Ayurveda type according to Element and leave Pentacles as Tri-Dosha [any element, any coloring or type]

 

I find this system accurate for identifying people by appearance.

There are other ways to identfy people [behavior, personality traits, zodiac, etc] so I don't rely on appearance 100%. But it works when I want to identify a person by appearance.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Misterei

[Natural Mystic Guide]

5 hours ago, Tom said:

the significator is taken out of play

I do not use a significator.  Sometimes a court card, or Major Arcana card may appear in a spread.  I will ask if it represents the Querent.  I find it cumbersome and unnecessary to use a designated significator.  I've been reading professional for a long time.  The only time I use a significator is when I am studying Tarot and there is an exercise that calls for it.

[Chariot]

4 hours ago, Misterei said:

 

 

Even whilst following Eden Gray's word as the Gospel ... I stopped using Courts as a significator for the Querent. It just seemed stupid. I know what the Querent looks like. I don't really need this card. Plus as a baby reader ... I read mostly for myself, anyway.

 

Today I still don't use Courts as a Significator for the client [a la Gray and AE Waite before her]. It still strikes me as unnecessary.

 

 

Thank you for saying what I've always felt about pre-chosen 'significator' cards.  They are basically not really necessary—especially when 'identifying' a person according to physical appearance.  And they remove a card from the deck, which might have proved more useful elsewhere in the spread.

I do occasionally 'draw' a significator card for a reading, if it seems that the present attitude of the querent (usually me!) will be important to the reading. But the card itself isn't predetermined by me.  It can be any card—major arcana, minor arcana, courts, and reversals—and is generated from the original shuffle.

This especially works well in the Celtic Cross, where recognising significant things about how the querent's attitude (me), the situation itself, and whatever crosses us are interacting 'now' can be helpful indeed.

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Chariot

[DanielJUK]

The older tarot books have very strict methods you must follow, you must use the Celtic Cross Spread, you must always choose a Signficator, you must sleep with a new deck under a pillow and use a silk cloth and read on a silk cloth. Tarot has really evolved since then and is so flexible and open. You can make your tarot reading practice however you want now! I don't really see any readings posted here with a signficator in the reading, it's just a thing from the past mostly. As others have said, it's annoying to use up a card from the deck in the reading. Use it if it helps your readings but don't base it just from an older tarot book which was the view at that time.

 

You can read in whatever way works for you. I think Signficators can be useful in a spread as a focus, like this card is pulled out and then you read on it. For example, why does this card keep coming up for me? Lay down that card at the top and read on it. I think it's also really useful to think about what Court Card most represents you and also your loved ones / close people / important folk around you. They will come up in readings when you read on yourself and you can see them appear. So some Courts might be more meaningful for you in a reading. I use them a lot in that way, working out if they represent real people but as cards randomly coming up in the reading.

 

The Court Cards are gendered but they can represent anyone. We all have female energies and male energies. Men (even straight men) can be Queens, Women can be Kings. I think it's important to think beyond that to understand all the people and qualities they represent. The Queens and Kings have different qualities even though they are top of the suit.

[akiva]

22 minutes ago, DanielJUK said:

Tarot has really evolved since then and is so flexible and open. You can make your tarot reading practice however you want now! I don't really see any readings posted here with a signficator in the reading, it's just a thing from the past mostly. As others have said, it's annoying to use up a card from the deck in the reading. Use it if it helps your readings but don't base it just from an older tarot book which was the view at that time.

The reading style has changed dramatically over the decades (or centuries). Originally a significator was just a starting point for a reading that involved a huge amount of cards.

Cards weren't often read linearly like today. They involved lots of counting and reshuffling and relaying the cards out. I think to prove they aren't fakes/or to get genuine randomness? Where as today we just lay the cards and read them. It's made a significator obsolete in a way. 

 

As much as I love historical methods, I always feel uncomfortable when old books mention complexion. As that truly limits the scope of who can be what cards and it's not fair. But, it's a product of it's time.

 

In my own practice I find using a King of Hearts/Cups for a man, Queen of Hearts/Cups for a woman, or Jack/Page of Hearts/Cups for non binary or gender fluid people works a treat. And they behave in a similar way to Lenormand or Kipper significators (which can be very useful). This means I'm free to use historical methods without judging complexions. Plus whenever I say "you're the Queen/King of Hearts/Cups in this spread" it's met with a rather pleased response! 😊

[Misterei]

13 hours ago, Chariot said:

Thank you for saying what I've always felt about pre-chosen 'significator' cards.  They are basically not really necessary—especially when 'identifying' a person according to physical appearance.  And they remove a card from the deck, which might have proved more useful elsewhere in the spread.
I do occasionally 'draw' a significator card for a reading ...

 

I use significator cards only with what I call Significator Spreads. Rana George also teaches this method in her LeNormand book. In a nutshell, if I'm asking about a car ... I signify Chariot as a car ... shuffle ... then look for the cards close to Chariot to make my spread. I might use Magician for a computer. I seldom to never use this for people, though.

 

8 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

... Significators can be useful in a spread as a focus, like this card is pulled out and then you read on it. For example, why does this card keep coming up for me? Lay down that card at the top and read on it ...

... Court Cards are gendered but they can represent anyone. We all have female energies and male energies.

Yes, i've used Significators as you describe for Clarifier spreads / stalker card situations.

 

I find Kings and Queens to read mostly true to gender ... but it may change for role. A female who must take a leadership role appears as a King for example. A gay man with two love interests - one appears as a king the other as a queen.

I have a couple "gender fluid" decks. Pavlov is my favorite. I like to use gender-fluid images if the client is best served by that [or sometimes just for fun]. This is a nice option with the explosion of deck availablility ... gender bending illustrations make it accessible for the client to grasp immediately rather than trying to explain RWS Queen is a nurturing man or whatnot };>

7 hours ago, akiva said:

The reading style has changed dramatically over the decades (or centuries). Originally a significator was just a starting point for a reading that involved a huge amount of cards.

Cards weren't often read linearly like today. They involved lots of counting and reshuffling and relaying the cards out. I think to prove they aren't fakes/or to get genuine randomness? Where as today we just lay the cards and read them. It's made a significator obsolete in a way. 

 

As much as I love historical methods, I always feel uncomfortable when old books mention complexion. As that truly limits the scope of who can be what cards and it's not fair. But, it's a product of it's time.

Good point about the older spread styles!

 

I think we've gone a bit too far on the "Eurocentric is BAD" spectrum, though.

Yes ... I get as irritated as anyone over all the blonde euro people in RWS.

But this also extends to more modern decks and those "Angel" decks ... RWS gets a pass for being 100 years old!

The newer decks should have kept up with the times.

I love the inclusive decks appearing in the 2000s. More nationalities represented. Gender fluidity represented. 💖

Playing cards arrived in Europe via the Mamluks and the Silk Road ... hence I love my Persian themed deck and would buy a good arabic themed deck if I could find one.

BUT

Tarocchi arose in 1400s ITALY. I won't shame my Tarocchi cards for being what they are.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Misterei

[akiva]

5 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I think we've gone a bit too far on the "Eurocentric is BAD" spectrum, though.

Yes ... I get as irritated as anyone over all the blonde euro people in RWS.

But this also extends to more modern decks and those "Angel" decks ... RWS gets a pass for being 100 years old!

This is why I like TdM, they're the colour of the cardstock and so I can pretend they're see-through! 😂 I can't get behind those angel decks, I didn't even know they were white-centric, but it's not surprising tbh... They're not always well thought through. 

 

14 minutes ago, Misterei said:

The newer decks should have kept up with the times.

I love the inclusive decks appearing in the 200s. More nationalities represented. Gender fluidity represented. 💖

Yes 100%, there's no excuse for a deck creator today to not be as inclusive as possible in deck creation. I do think though that it's really hard to include everyone. There'll always be someone left out. If we're talking pip decks too, there's only 16 cards to represent the whole world.

 

24 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Playing cards arrived in Europe via the Mamluks and the Silk Road ... hence I love my Persian themed deck and would buy a good arabic themed deck if I could find one.

BUT

Tarocchi arose in 1400s ITALY. I won't shame my Tarocchi cards for being what they are.

Preserving history is important. If people want to update these decks and make them modern then that is amazing, I know I'd buy a tarocchi deck that has proper ethnic/lgbtqia+ representation. But that doesn't mean older decks should be forgotten. There's people who flat out refuse to use a historical deck that isn't totally inclusive and I feel it's a shame. These decks can teach you so much about the origins of tarot symbolism and how the cards were 'supposed' to be read.

It's the same with older methods too. We shouldn't shame them, just adapt them to more modern times and know that today it's done differently, while respecting that this is why we are where we are today! 

[Misterei]

5 hours ago, akiva said:

Yes 100%, there's no excuse for a deck creator today to not be as inclusive as possible in deck creation. I do think though that it's really hard to include everyone. There'll always be someone left out. If we're talking pip decks too, there's only 16 cards to represent the whole world.

Good point. Plus the theme decks like my Persian deck ... everyone is Persian. Or my Sufi deck is wider spectrum ... but everyone is from one of the Moslem populations. My Nigerian student has an African themed deck. And there's that photo deck that's Haiti theme.

 

@akiva <<Preserving history is important. If people want to update these decks and make them modern then that is amazing, I know I'd buy a tarocchi deck that has proper ethnic/lgbtqia+ representation. But that doesn't mean older decks should be forgotten. There's people who flat out refuse to use a historical deck that isn't totally inclusive and I feel it's a shame. ... It's the same with older methods too. We shouldn't shame them, just adapt them to more modern times and know that today it's done differently, while respecting that this is why we are where we are today! >>

 

100%. We can make modern decks inclusive yet still respect the Italian origins of original Tarocchi and French origins of TdM. Tarot started out as part of Euro culture ... we can expand but still respect its roots.

[Tom]

I still like the RWS traditional decks, but I view the people as personality types and not as ethnicities.  To mean the qualities of the person represent are more important.

 

Both the Awaken and This Might Hurt Tarot both show diverse ethnicities. They are more modern looking and have more contemporary situations depicted. But it's impossible, as noted above to represent everyone.

 

As I have already said I only have used Celtic Cross spreads.  Most of  the people I read for, have said I was spot on.  It is time for me to  broaden my horizons and try some other spreads.  Reading the more complete guide books that come with the decks could also help to open myself up in to new possibilities. 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Tom