How do you deal with doubts about the Magic of Tarot?

[Misterei]

18 hours ago, gregory said:

... we did an experiment years ago on AT where one person agreed to have - IIRC 8 of us - read for her on the same issue, each using our own methods and spreads. We all drew quite different cards ... And the readings came out startlingly similar. Sop how would stats work there?

This experiment is different from my goals.

For example in the AT experiment:

Knight Pents is usually a new job in my personal repertoire ... to you or to reader X ... perhaps Ace Coins is the new job card ... the AT experiment will show readers giving a similar reading [new job] based on which cards symbolize new job to them.

In this case the statistic is 50% of readers made the same prediction. Or 70% or readers made the same prediction. [or whatever it was]

The individual cards didn't particularly matter ... the percentage of readers giving a similar prediction is what can be measured.

 

My interest in calculating odds has a totally different goal.

One way that Tarot gets my attention is by serving statistical improbabilities in a spread ... the more improbable ... the stronger the message.

This is why readings that go wrong ... the ones I don't understand ... seem like a random jumble.

B/c they ARE a random jumble. Something failed to connect.

 

To me, a good, spot-on reading has some juicy statistical improbabilities that grab my attention and speak to me. I would LOVE to be better at calculating odds to explore this in more depth. I'm not out to prove anything ... just to explore how Tarot communicates with me.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Misterei

[Misterei]

16 hours ago, Drake_Winterfell said:

... not just random chance when it happens on a regular basis. We have to look for a different explanation. 

I didn't know Pythagoras was a mystic. 

Mechanistic science doesn't explain quantum science. It's mystical that a particle can be in two different places at the same time. There's definitely more to the universe than we currently understand.

Yes, the thought police ... er I mean educators ... don't mention the facts that Pythagoras was a strict vegetarian, believed in reincarnation, and worshiped Apollo. *sigh*.

This is part of my interest in numbers, statistics, and tarot. I think there's some subtle quantum stuff happening with it.

I think the quantum stuff blurs the lines between "mystical" and "scientific". There's a line between mystical and mechanistic ... for sure ... but as you mention ... mechanistic science is only one type. The universe is larger and stranger than mechanics };>

Edited December 13, 2023 by Misterei

[akiva]

5 hours ago, Misterei said:

Yes, the thought police ... er I mean educators ... don't mention the facts that Pythagoras was a strict vegetarian, believed in reincarnation, and worshiped Apollo. *sigh*.

They also reduce his strict diet down to "he was scared of beans" but it ran way deeper than that... 

 

His greatest feat imo was teaching numbers not only as a quantity (maths) but as a quality (spirituality), which really lends itself well to tarot and probably could propell things like quantum science and other edge sciences beyond where they are now. We just need to let go of this idea that throwing out outdated research and ideas is bad.

The more I read about their interpretations of 1-9 the more I started to see all sorts in it. Like the formation of the universe, how source manifests within it, and one time I thought I saw the process of making bread (it can drive you mad 🤪).

 

The numbers of things as a quality are no accident. There's far too many 'coincidences' for it to be random design. This is what I remind myself of when I doubt the magic of tarot. I tend to believe that if something happens 3 (means/process/expression) or more times, it's a pattern not a coincidence (like accurate tarot readings based on non local information). As a quality three also can join two distinct things and bridge them together (like the reader and accessed information) through the addition of a third thing (the deck).

 

Then of course, there's the maths involved in an various fortune-telling decks... 78 is a triangle number, so is 21 (triumphs minus The Fool), also 45 and 55 (a reduced tarocco bolognese deck), 36 is also a triangle number (lenormand).

I'm still pondering what that all means, but to me it's no accident that they all share the same quality of number. It's like they behave as the tetractys, with a base of 4 suits, 3 qualities (positive, negative, neutral), 2 groups (courts & pips/triumphs & minors) and it's all housed in 1 deck forming a triangle... 🤔

 

That's not to say you need a triangle numbered deck to read with, but maybe it explains the popularity of some decks over others? A subtle harmony that attracts us without us even knowing 😁

[Misterei]

18 hours ago, akiva said:

... His greatest feat imo was teaching numbers not only as a quantity (maths) but as a quality (spirituality), which really lends itself well to tarot and probably could propell things like quantum science and other edge sciences beyond where they are now.

Yes. Exactly. I like how you phrase the idea of number as a quality as well as a quantity.

 

@akiva<<... The more I read about their interpretations of 1-9 the more I started to see all sorts in it. Like the formation of the universe, how source manifests within it, and one time I thought I saw the process of making bread (it can drive you mad ...>>

 

The FOOL is the divine madman. It's SUPPOSED to drive us mad };>

I love those moment we transcend the mundane in baking bread or brewing tea or whatnot ... the idea that science is always in a lab or religion is always in  church ...

 

@akiva <<... if something happens 3 (means/process/expression) or more times, it's a pattern not a coincidence (like accurate tarot readings based on non local information). As a quality three also can join two distinct things and bridge them together (like the reader and accessed information) through the addition of a third thing (the deck).>>

 

Now you touch upon Gurdjieff's Law of Three. It truly is a mystical magical number.

 

@akiva <<Then of course, there's the maths involved in an various fortune-telling decks... 78 is a triangle number, so is 21 (triumphs minus The Fool), also 45 and 55 (a reduced tarocco bolognese deck), 36 is also a triangle number (lenormand).>>

 

I never knew about triangle numbers ... I had to look it up. WOW. SO COOL! I never understood what might be special about 78 ... but this is quite interesting.

 

@akiva <<I'm still pondering what that all means, but to me it's no accident that they all share the same quality of number. It's like they behave as the tetractys, with a base of 4 suits, 3 qualities (positive, negative, neutral), 2 groups (courts & pips/triumphs & minors) and it's all housed in 1 deck forming a triangle... >>

 

Haha. Cute.

[akiva]

10 hours ago, Misterei said:

The FOOL is the divine madman. It's SUPPOSED to drive us mad };>

I love those moment we transcend the mundane in baking bread or brewing tea or whatnot ... the idea that science is always in a lab or religion is always in  church ...

I certainly felt like the madman when I was deep diving into it! When you start to observe reality through numbers as quality, meanings start arriving everywhere 😅 

 

10 hours ago, Misterei said:

Now you touch upon Gurdjieff's Law of Three. It truly is a mystical magical number.

It's the first real number as it's forms the first shape, it allows duality to exist without destroying each other in the process, by joining source (one) and seperation (two) together. 

 

10 hours ago, Misterei said:

I never knew about triangle numbers ... I had to look it up. WOW. SO COOL! I never understood what might be special about 78 ... but this is quite interesting.

They're pretty cool numbers, there's also hexagon numbers too, but the only deck I can think of that falls into that category is a reduced tarocchi bolognese 🤔

[Misterei]

6 hours ago, akiva said:

It's the first real number as it's forms the first shape, it allows duality to exist without destroying each other in the process, by joining source (one) and seperation (two) together.

YES! Gurdjieff calls it as 3 basic forces: Holy affirming, Holy denying, Holy reconciling.

He taught that phenomena can only arise when all 3 forces are present ... Holy affirming and Holy denying cancel each other.

Phenomena can only arise when the 3rd thing / number / force is present.

It's very cool to read you explain it in different words ... yet exactly the same philosophy.

[akiva]

15 minutes ago, Misterei said:

YES! Gurdjieff calls it as 3 basic forces: Holy affirming, Holy denying, Holy reconciling.

He taught that phenomena can only arise when all 3 forces are present ... Holy affirming and Holy denying cancel each other.

Phenomena can only arise when the 3rd thing / number / force is present.

It's very cool to read you explain it in different words ... yet exactly the same philosophy.

In all honesty I've never heard of Gurdjieff before 😂 but I'll be doing some intensive reading now. 

I wonder if he was inspired by the pythagorean views on the Triad? 🤔

[Misterei]

Just now, akiva said:

In all honesty I've never heard of Gurdjieff before 😂 but I'll be doing some intensive reading now. 

I wonder if he was inspired by the pythagorean views on the Triad? 🤔

G. is quite mysterious.

As far as I can tell ... his philosophy is based on Greek Orthodox, Central Asian Sufi, and Pythagorianism.

His most famous student was Ouspensky. The philosophy is sometimes called Fourth Way.