Tarocco Siciliano - help identifying faces

[akiva]

Hey everyone,

 

So I've had this deck for a while now, though it's never been read with. More because of a huge lack of information around it. I did find one site which is now on the wayback machine that took a stab at making an attempt to understand this deck, but the webpage ended up being taken down due to lack of interest.

 

My main question is, who in the world are on these court cards?

 

I've tried to take as good a picture as possible, please let me know if I should take others.

I'll probably be ignorantly blending Greek and Roman mythology together, so I apologise in advance. 

 

This whole deck has existed in a vacuum for a long time. There's not much written about it, and the one book I could find doesn't even mention who these faces could be. The queens and knights don't have any on them, so I left them out.

 

Starting with the princesses:

According to the site, they represent the Hores/seasons.

 

Princess of Swords:

They say (on the site) that they don't know what the wolf represents on the princess of swords. It could be Lupa from the story of Romulus and Remus. Apparently also to the Roman god Mars the wolf is sacred. In ancient Rome they used to celebrate Lupercalia on the 15th of February too... Maybe she represents spring?

 

Princess of Wands:

The site says it's Pan on this card? What are your thoughts? Does it look like Pan? I'm not convinced, surely Pan would have horns... And she's holding a bird, which I have no clue as to what that represents. I know hawking was associated with leisure in antiquity. Maybe it's reference to that? Doesn't seem right though.

 

Princess of cups:

Apparently this shows Eurybia, daughter of the seas. Who was described as having a heart of flint within her (see necklace if you can).

 

Princess of coins:

The site says that this card shows Uranus. I'm not totally convinced by this either, why would the primordial god of the sky represent coins? He looks older than the rest, could that be hinting at Saturn?

 

Now the kings:

(These are my own notes as the site glossed over these completely)

 

King of swords:

I've taken a guess and wrote that it's Ares/Mars. It seems to fit the sword symbology well.

 

King of wands:

Could this be Dionysus? He looks very feminine... Maybe he could be Hermaphroditus? I'm not sure how that could fit with the Wand symbology though. Maybe it's Hercules? That would fit better. 

 

King of cups:

This depicts the Nemean lion, also Leo, the start of the attic calendar. There is an astrological component to the court cards it seems...

 

King of coins:

The only god I can find a close link with money is Hermes. Apparently (according to the Houston Chronicle) Hermes was sometimes depicted with a beard. In archaic Greece he was depicted as a mature man, bearded and dressed as a traveller/herald/pastor. He was the God of trade, theft and travel. Also sheep which are bred in autumn. He was the son of Hermaphroditus and is related to Hercules...

 

What are your thoughts on these faces? I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be able to do a better job at associating them! 😊

[Misterei]

I wish I could help.

I only know in a vague general way that in the Renaissance the Courts were often characters from popular romances or the Commedia dell'arte.

But these seem different than the ones I know: Alexander Megalo [wands]. King Arthur [cups]

I like what you wrote about the Princesses ... seems plausible.

In the West, Saturn relates to Earth element. So yeah. Maybe saturn for coins???

It's only in Vedic astrology that Saturn is air.

[akiva]

3 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I only know in a vague general way that in the Renaissance the Courts were often characters from popular romances or the Commedia dell'arte.

But these seem different than the ones I know: Alexander Megalo [wands]. King Arthur [cups]

I've seen French ones with names on them too, but you're right, these are a whole other kettle of fish!

 

4 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I like what you wrote about the Princesses ... seems plausible.

In the West, Saturn relates to Earth element. So yeah. Maybe saturn for coins???

It's only in Vedic astrology that Saturn is air.

That's what I was thinking re: Saturn/Chronos, I can't understand why they said it was Uranus... it's literally the opposite... unless coins are air like in lasenics deck... please no! 😅

[Misterei]

4 minutes ago, akiva said:

I've seen French ones with names on them too, but you're right, these are a whole other kettle of fish!

 

That's what I was thinking re: Saturn/Chronos, I can't understand why they said it was Uranus... it's literally the opposite... unless coins are air like in lasenics deck... please no! 😅

There's an Astrological argument for money as air. [Mercury] and for swords as Earth [saturn]

I have NO idea if this is where Lasenic was coming from ...

BUT ...

I associate Coins with Mercury ... but Mercury is an EARTH planet in Vedic Astrology

I associate Swords with Saturn ... but Saturn is an AIR planet in Vedic Astrology.

 

My Western students sometimes get mad about that };>

[akiva]

1 minute ago, Misterei said:

There's an Astrological argument for money as air. [Mercury] and for swords as Earth [saturn]

I have NO idea if this is where Lasenic was coming from ...

BUT ...

I associate Coins with Mercury ... but Mercury is an EARTH planet in Vedic Astrology

I associate Swords with Saturn ... but Saturn is an AIR planet in Vedic Astrology.

 

My Western students sometimes get mad about that };>

Now that is food for thought! Isn't Hermes kind of Mercury too? So then that could also be the air thing... Maybe we've cracked it from a western point of view 😁

 

I always thought lasenic was coming from a Melancholy = Earth kind of thing, unfortunately his books are in Czech and there's only so much translating I can do 😅

[Misterei]

On 12/14/2023 at 4:10 PM, akiva said:

Isn't Hermes kind of Mercury too? So then that could also be the air thing...

 

I always thought lasenic was coming from a Melancholy = Earth kind of thing, unfortunately his books are in Czech and there's only so much translating I can do

Hermes is Mercury. Yes. He's the God of communication to both Greeks and Indians ... but for some reason the Indians see the planet as Earth while the Greeks see the planet as Air. And Mercury rules Gemini [air sign] and Virgo [earth sign]. So here we are.

 

I don't know much about the Wirth / Lasenic lineage.

Wirth had his own system that was alternative to the GD system. I like that he was more original [Waite and Crowley just seemed to copy GD and put their own spin on it]. But other than knowing he didn't copy GD ... I don't actually know much else

We have Wirth to thank for publishing the French Cross, even though he didn't invent it.

[akiva]

7 hours ago, Misterei said:

Hermes is Mercury. Yes. He's the God of communication to both Greeks and Indians ... but for some reason the Indians see the planet as Earth while the Greeks see the planet as Air. And Mercury rules Gemini [air sign] and Virgo [earth sign]. So here we are.

That will explain the air association, but Uranus' association still alludes me. I've been reading up on him, and the only relating thing I could find is that he's depicted within a brass ring that has the zodiac on it (like a coin?), 🤔 but that feels a bit on the nose...

 

Do you know why the Indians saw him as Earth based? I know that they use a different temperament system than the west. The only one I can remember is Pita 😅

 

7 hours ago, Misterei said:

I don't know much about the Wirth / Lasenic lineage.

Wirth had his own system that was alternative to the GD system. I like that he was more original [Waite and Crowley just seemed to copy GD and put their own spin on it]. But other than knowing he didn't copy GD ... I don't actually know much else

We have Wirth to thank for publishing the French Cross, even though he didn't invent it.

Yes I like that about Wirth too. I vaguely remember reading that Lasenic studied with Wirth and that inspired his deck (which is so much better than Wirth's imo) but apart from that, it's all a mystery. Just looked up Lasenic's book and it's called “Tarot, klic k iniciaci” (Tarot, The Key to Initiation, 1938-1939). At some point it will be hunted down! 😁

 

The French Cross is one of my faves! Such a simple but effective spread. Do you know who did invent it? My guess is it was a traditional French cartomancy method before being adopted by the Wirth 😊

[DanielJUK]

Just adding, the Golden Dawn traditionally only used the Classical planets, Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. Many decks earlier than the 20th Century may have ignored the modern planets, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Uranus and Neptune were known when the GD were around (Uranus discovered in 1781 and Neptune in 1846). Pluto is very modern, discovered in 1930. It's possible that older decks only used the classical planets as associations because of this. In modern times, people have put the modern planets onto cards as associations but they might not have been designed for those ideas, some people still ignore them completely.

[akiva]

Thank you for commenting @DanielJUK, I think the author of the site's reference to Uranus (Ouranos) is as the god, not the planet, is that what you meant?

They said it was the face on the shield of the princess of coins 😆

 

This deck was made before the GD was around. It's basically existed in a vacuum for a loooong time. It's completely devoid of Christian symbolism in favour of Greek/Roman mythology instead. There's also some links to the Minchiate in it too, and it's also reduced similar to the bolognese tarocchi (63 cards 5-10 + courts), it really is a frankenstein deck! 😅

 

 

 

Just to note for my frazzled brain, here is a summary of what I've found out about Ouranos:

 

He (Uranus) and Gaia gave birth to 12 sons and 6 daughters. He locked the eldest of them (the giant Cyclopes and Hecatoncheires, say that 3 times really fast 🤪) in the center of the earth. Gaia begged her Titan children to free them and Chronos (Saturn) responded (with 4 others) and castrated him with a adamantine sickle. Uranus' blood then gave birth to the giants and Erinyes (not sure what they are). 

 

Having said/read all that, I still don't know what Uranus' link to coins is! 🤣 He wasn't worshipped as a deity, more as the personification of heaven/sky 🤷‍♂️ also his name has links to Indo-European cultures and it means rain giver? The fact Chronos used a sickle also hints this story could have Asian origins apparently. I need to do more research... I'm still not convinced it's him on the card, but the link to air is there through Hermes.

[akiva]

Food for thought:

 

The 4 Court cards replace the numbers 1-4 in this deck. So the princesses are number 1 (monad). They represent potentials, things that aren't quite manifest. If you place them on a zodiac wheel, they mark the changes of seasons... so maybe the link to Uranus is he's the personification of air, but was seen more as a concept rather than an physical deity... 🤔 While Hermes (potentially) on the King of Coins could actually represent what the suit stands for? 

[Misterei]

11 hours ago, akiva said:

Do you know why the Indians saw him as Earth based? I know that they use a different temperament system than the west.

Classical Vedic astrology only uses the 2 lunminiaries, the 5 visible planets, and Rahuketu [the lunar nodes].

So they didn't use Uranus as a planet [although some modern vedic astrologers use the outer planets now ... but this is a western influence].

As far as Elements with planets ... there's ways its used in Medical Astrology / Ayurveda [vata, pitta, kapha] and then there's a more abstract purely astrological approach to. But actually this did get me thinking about Lasenic changing earth and air suits ...

Mercury rules gemini [air] and virgo [earth

Saturn rules capricorn [earth] and aquarius [air]

So whether we're in western or eastern astrology ... there is a sort of criss-cross with earth and air.

 

@akiva <<Yes I like that about Wirth too. I vaguely remember reading that Lasenic studied with Wirth and that inspired his deck (which is so much better than Wirth's imo) but apart from that, it's all a mystery.>>

 

Lasenic was Wirth's star pupil and carried on his lineage ... lol into obscurity };> I have the Lo Scarabeo version of Wirth's deck which improved on the original [I think Wirth did only Trumps???]. And of course Lasenic deck to honor that lineage. I read with the LoScarbaeo Wirth b/c there are no elemental symbols so I can just keep my elements how I like them. Lasenic challenges me as a reader b/c i would be forced to change the elements and suits ... maybe I'll do a DotW challenge on it ... when I'm feeling brave. not now.

 

@akivaThe French Cross is one of my faves! Such a simple but effective spread. Do you know who did invent it?

 

Supposedly Joséphin Péladan who was a French occultist. I think many occultists got their ideas from the less literate and then fancied them up to write about them ... but who knows? The way the spread is framed as court case argues that Péladan might have invented it from scratch. Mystery.

 

9 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

Just adding, the Golden Dawn traditionally only used the Classical planets, Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. Many decks earlier than the 20th Century may have ignored the modern planets ...

Yes. I find the modern planets are imposing something onto Tarot it wasn't built for. Of course some people will say putting Vedic astrology on Tarot does this ... but Vedic Astrology is so much like Renaissance Euro astrology ... feels like a more natural fit.

9 hours ago, akiva said:

... Uranus' blood then gave birth to the giants and Erinyes (not sure what they are).

They are the 3 Furies.

The internet says this:

The children of Gaea and Uranus, they were usually characterized as three sisters: Alecto (“unceasing”), Tisiphone (“avenging murder”), and Megaera (“grudging”).

Completely UNhelpful to your tarot quest ... but i happen to love this myth and the fact that the furies are female.

[akiva]

43 minutes ago, Misterei said:

But actually this did get me thinking about Lasenic changing earth and air suits ...

Mercury rules gemini [air] and virgo [earth

Saturn rules capricorn [earth] and aquarius [air]

So whether we're in western or eastern astrology ... there is a sort of criss-cross with earth and air.

I never looked at it like that but you're right, they cover both air and earth 😯 more learning needed! I have a horary astrology book I should dive into! 😆

 

45 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Lasenic challenges me as a reader b/c i would be forced to change the elements and suits ... maybe I'll do a DotW challenge on it ... when I'm feeling brave. not now.

Yes his deck really is a (good) challenge, I'll join you with the lasenic if you do 😁 did you manage to translate his meanings from the LWB? They're even stranger!

 

47 minutes ago, Misterei said:

They are the 3 Furies.

The internet says this:

The children of Gaea and Uranus, they were usually characterized as three sisters: Alecto (“unceasing”), Tisiphone (“avenging murder”), and Megaera (“grudging”).

Completely UNhelpful to your tarot quest ... but i happen to love this myth and the fact that the furies are female.

I love this myth too, we've probably cracked the coins faces though so it's not been in vain. Reading about Ouranos has been like reading an opera, very entertaining! The furies being female reminds me of "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" 🤣