Mixing Lenormand and Kipper Cards?

[Chariot]

A while back—and I can't remember what thread it was—I mentioned that I've been experimenting with Lenormand and Kipper cards mixed together ...and finding it an interesting, and in some ways richer, way to read them both.  I use Ciro Marchetti's Fin De Siècle Kipper deck and his  Gilded Reverie Lenormand (Expanded Edition.)  The cards in both decks are exactly the same size, weight, and finish, so they combine well ...The Lenormand are gilded in gold, and the Kipper in Silver.

In case anybody thinks I am a total nut case who is too inventive for my own good ...guess what I just found on Amazon UK?

It's The Siren's Song: Diving the Depths with Lenormand and Kipper Cards - includes 40 Lenormand Cards, 38 Kipper Cards and a 144-page colour guidebook.  The authors are Carrie Paris and Toni Savory, and this set is published by Red Wheel/Weiser ...29 September, 2023.  Current price for the double deck and book is around £28.  I haven't bought this set, but I'm VERY tempted.

This description of The Siren's Song, included on the Amazon site, is particularly enlightening:

 

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"A fantastical deep-sea world awaits us in this set of two complimentary oracular decks, to be used in combination or alone. These beautiful decks invite us into a world inhabited by iridescent characters who lend their magic, myth (and tentacles!) to every oracle reading. The result is as seductive and eternal as the legendary sirens’ song.
 
Here deep, arcane currents flow and animate the skeletons of those who came before and the guardians of those who are still to come—the keepers of our Unfolding Story. Hidden within these dark waters are secrets and sunken truths, some weighty, others as light as sea spray. This, dear diviner, must seem a strange and uncharted realm; but it teems with new life and unsung potential. Are you ready to take this voyage of discovery?
 
This divination kit contains two oracles: a Kipper and a Lenormand. When used together they provide the highest, fullest degree of possible interpretation. Unlike tarot and oracle decks which are read intuitively, Lenormand cards are read metaphorically, and Kipper cards are read quite literally. Lenormand deals with the outer world, and Kipper deals with the interpersonal.  The most common way to read Lenormand and Kipper is to treat the card meanings as words and read them in order. There can be a certain amount of intuition in how you approach the card meanings, but they have set meanings. The Kipper deck is not a card deck that has the capacity to address larger societal issues. It’s more on a personal level, aimed at the everyday realities of people’s lives, and it reflects both the highest and the lowest possibilities those lives can contain. It depicts people, societal roles, and personal states of being. 
 
As for the card decks themselves, there are four additional cards in the Lenormand deck – an extra child, man, woman and dog.  For the extra “dog” card, the image is a cat.  For the Kipper deck, there are two extra marriage cards for all types of unions.  The companion book contains instructions to “create your deck of choice” by removing unwanted options, mixing and matching."

 

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This is a fascinating departure from the standard Lenormand reading procedure, but certainly worth exploring, in my opinion.  The decks look gorgeous, by the way.  The artwork is highly decorative.
  

Edited January 2, 2024 by Chariot

[Madame Squee]

I noticed Toni Savory, The Card Geek, has posted a video about reading Lenormand and Kipper cards together...

 

 

[Sar]

33 minutes ago, Madame Squee said:

I noticed Toni Savory, The Card Geek, has posted a video about reading Lenormand and Kipper cards together...

 

 

Toni can do what she wants, and I will of course watch her video, but I am not a fan of mixing different systems in that regard.

[Madame Squee]

1 hour ago, Sar said:

Toni can do what she wants, and I will of course watch her video, but I am not a fan of mixing different systems in that regard.

 

I'm with you, Sar. Personally, I'm just starting to learn how to read Kipper and have been enjoying Toni's beginner Kipper videos. So, I'll definitely watch the Siren's Song video, too. But I'm not at a place to start mixing anything. 

 

ETA: Also not a Lenormand expert either. But I really enjoyed Toni's observation at the beginning of the video: Lenormand cards are emblems; Kipper cards are situations. 

 

Edited January 3, 2024 by Madame Squee
something to add

[joy]

I am with you both @Sar and @Madame Squee. Especially beginners might really get confused. 

[Sar]

The thing is mixing systems reveals a distrust in a particular system (or both) to tell you what is going on. 

[Doktor_Zeus]

24 minutes ago, Sar said:

The thing is mixing systems reveals a distrust in a particular system (or both) to tell you what is going on. 

 

I don't think I'd agree with that, per se. Sometimes mixing things together can have a beneficial effect. Alloys are stronger.

 

That said, I do agree that just mashing Kipper and Lenormand together is not likely to be beneficial. Some kind of harmonic synthesis of the two, maybe, but not just transplanting cards willy-nilly. It has to be done intelligently. I've thought about doing this a few times myself, but then, my needs are purely inspirational. I don't have to worry about the spiritual side of things.

 

One day maybe I'll make my own dedicated oracle deck specifically for telling stories with, and if I do, it will certainly have elements of Lenormand in it.

[Sar]

3 hours ago, Doktor_Zeus said:

 

 

One day maybe I'll make my own dedicated oracle deck specifically for telling stories with, and if I do, it will certainly have elements of Lenormand in it.

Exciting project, I will look forward to it.

[Madame Squee]

I don't see myself mixing Lenormand and Kipper until I have a good grasp on Kipper. In fact, may never mix the two, but Toni did present some interesting suggestions for mixing, like adding more people cards to Kipper. She covered a Kipper reading in the second half of the video, which I really appreciated. And in the end, I ordered the Siren's Song set. It wasn't hard to justify: the art appeals to me, I always love having another Lenormand deck, I'm building a Kipper collection, and Amazon is currently offering a 20%-off coupon in addition to a 23% discount. Plus Toni has another Siren's Song video that focuses on Kipper... 
 

 

PS: This Kipper deck has the directions from the 1920's FX Schmidt publication. 

[joy]

5 hours ago, Madame Squee said:

I don't see myself mixing Lenormand and Kipper until I have a good grasp on Kipper. In fact, may never mix the two, but Toni did present some interesting suggestions for mixing, like adding more people cards to Kipper. She covered a Kipper reading in the second half of the video, which I really appreciated. And in the end, I ordered the Siren's Song set. It wasn't hard to justify: the art appeals to me, I always love having another Lenormand deck, I'm building a Kipper collection, and Amazon is currently offering a 20%-off coupon in addition to a 23% discount. Plus Toni has another Siren's Song video that focuses on Kipper... 
 

 

PS: This Kipper deck has the directions from the 1920's FX Schmidt publication. 

Watched the video and it was very interesting indeed. However I am still not fully confident with Lenormand and not even looked at Kipper. So will wait and see.

[DanielJUK]

I've moved some posts here from this original kipper thread -

 

It started to go off-topic discussing mixing Kipper and Lenomand cards. I have added the posts to this thread from @Chariot which wasn't getting much love in the Experimental Lenormand section and so moved it over here to Kippers. This is the thread to discuss mixing the systems together. How would you do it? or are you against it?

[DanielJUK]

Yep, Ciro's Kipper and Lenormand go together nicely for reading. I've also used the Mystical Kipper and Mystical Lenormand together as their artwork and size matches each other. I think you can contrast decks as well and use totally different decks.

 

I think this topic is really about how do you mix the systems?

 

I am always a fan of experimenting and mixing decks. I like to take a spread, say 4 positions and then have different systems in the positions. I have done it with 3 Lenormand cards and 3 kipper cards, under those, in each position. I keep the systems separate though. I've also done Lenormand with Tarot and Kipper with Tarot. I think it gives a nice compare / contrast of the different systems in a reading.

 

I am not a fan though of just merging them, like just putting them all together. They are 2 separate systems of Cartomancy to me and should be treated as such.