Astrological Decans in the Thoth Minors--Question

[Misterei]

I'm perplexed what's going on with the decans in the Thoth Minors.

Let's start with astrology.

The Sign Aries has 3 decans: #1 ruled by Mars, #2 ruled by Sun, #3 ruled by Jupiter [although I found one obscure source which gives it as ruled by Venus according to the Chaldean system and ruled by Jupiter according to classical methods which the author calls Triplicity].

 

Thus we have 2 wands as Mars of Aries. 3 Wands as Sun of Aries. 4 wands as Venus [not Jupiter] of Aries.

Until I found an obscure source about the Chaldean system being different than the *normal* system--I was completely perplexed why Thoth coincided on the first 2 Decans but gets weird with the 3rd Decan.

 

Another example. Libra decans. Ruled by #1 Venus, #2 Saturn, #3 Mercury

2 Swords is Venus decan of Libra. 3 swords is Saturn of Libra. 4 swords SHOULD be Mercury of Libra--but Thoth deck calls it Jupiter of Libra.

 

Can anyone shed light on this?

Edited June 19, 2024 by Misterei

[Rose Lalonde]

Does this help? Skyscript on the faces/decans. https://www.skyscript.co.uk/glossary/faces/

(Thoth/GD 2 of Swords is the first decan of Libra ruled by the moon, not Venus)

[Misterei]

8 minutes ago, Rose Lalonde said:

Does this help? Skyscript on the faces/decans. https://www.skyscript.co.uk/glossary/faces/

(Thoth/GD 2 of Swords is the first decan of Libra ruled by the moon, not Venus)

LOL Interesting source but this actually makes things WORSE 🤣

I missed that 2 swords in thoth is Moon of Libra instead of Venus in Libra.

I don't understand why GD / Crowley is using a different system. Chaldean system? Or in the skyscript site they are calling it an Egyptian system?

We seem to have 2 different systems of Decans out there in astro land.

 

[fire cat pickles]

Sorry I posted before I understood your question and confusion.

 

Here is another link that may clear up some confusion: https://www.renaissanceastrology.com/planetaryhoursarticle.html

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2024 by fire cat pickles

[Rose Lalonde]

The GD and then Thoth used Hellenistic astrology. Skyscript is a site devoted to classical astrology. 

 

Astro.com lists a few ways the decan rulers have been assigned, including this one (under Chaldean), and says --

"With this method, the rulers of the decans follow the order of the so-called "Chaldean planetary order", which was derived from the geocentric speeds of the planets:

Saturn - Jupiter - Mars - Sun - Venus - Mercury - Moon

The method was taught by the Greco-Egyptian astrologer Teucer "of Babylon" (3rd cent. CE) and the Roman astrologer Firmicus Maternus (4th cent. CE, Mathesis II.4). The system was transmitted to modern European astrology via the Arabic astrologer Abu Ma'shar, whose work was translated into Latin during the Renaissance."

 

I can't comment on comparisons with other systems. This is the only astrology I use. The free Morinus software includes it.

Edited June 19, 2024 by Rose Lalonde

[Aeon418]

14 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

Saturn - Jupiter - Mars - Sun - Venus - Mercury - Moon

 

Yes. Starting with the 5 of Wands (0° Leo) the planets are assigned in this order. The same planetary order mapped to the qabalistic Tree of Life - spheres 3 through 9 -  Binah to Yesod.

 

The only break in this repeating pattern occurs in the last decan of winter, 20° - 30° of Pisces - 10 of Cups, and the first decan of spring, 0° - 10° of Aries - 2 of Wands. Both decans are assigned the planet Mars, supposedly to symbolise the extra kick needed to initiate the new seasonal cycle, while simultaneously filling in the gap created by a system that assigns 7 planets to 36 decans.  

[Misterei]

21 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

Sorry I posted before I understood your question and confusion.

Here is another link that may clear up some confusion: https://www.renaissanceastrology.com/planetaryhoursarticle.html

Hi Firecat. I own Christopher Warnocks's book and am familiar with Renaissance astrology. It's similar to Vedic astrology and I use Planetary Hours and Days on a daily basis. The Renaissance astrologers also used Lunar Mansions which the Indians kept, but the Europeans abandonned. The Lunar mansions are pretty similar between Vedic and Renaissance astrology and I understand how and why the 2 systems diverge.

 

My stumbling block with Thoth is *why* their decan system is different from the one I've learnt? 

 

I don't know why decans should be different--whereas i *do* understand why the Europeans used 28 Lunar Mansions and the Indians use 27.

[Misterei]

21 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

The GD and then Thoth used Hellenistic astrology. Skyscript is a site devoted to classical astrology.

That would explain part of my confusion. I HAVE 2 books on Hellenistic astrology, but I've not actually READ them yet 🙄

Thanks for links and whatnot.

6 hours ago, Aeon418 said:

Yes. Starting with the 5 of Wands (0° Leo) the planets are assigned in this order. The same planetary order mapped to the qabalistic Tree of Life - spheres 3 through 9 -  Binah to Yesod.

 

The only break in this repeating pattern occurs in the last decan of winter, 20° - 30° of Pisces - 10 of Cups, and the first decan of spring, 0° - 10° of Aries - 2 of Wands. Both decans are assigned the planet Mars, supposedly to symbolise the extra kick needed to initiate the new seasonal cycle, while simultaneously filling in the gap created by a system that assigns 7 planets to 36 decans.  

I can't say I follow why this begins with 5 Wands???

Anyway. The system with which I'm familiar assigns decans in a way that parallels the Indian Planetary Friendships. Feels easy and natural. This <<geocentric speeds model: Saturn - Jupiter - Mars - Sun - Venus - Mercury - Moon>> is unfamiliar--although perhaps I'm starting to understand *why* there are two different models.

 

I might say that one model is apparent speed of the planet while the more familiar [to me] model is planetary friendships.

Edited June 20, 2024 by Misterei

[Oink]

On 6/20/2024 at 2:00 PM, Misterei said:

I can't say I follow why this begins with 5 Wands???

IMO, that explanation makes sense as the simplest example when taking into account the following:

1. the Chaldean order beginning with Saturn
2. the 5 Wands being Saturn in 0° / first decan of Leo
3. wanting Saturn to appear at 0° / first decan of a sign rather than the 10° middle or 20° tail end
4. the only other option would be 0° / first decan of Pisces, but then there’s the pesky issue of dividing a 360 degree / 36 segments zodiac wheel by 7 planets. Mars repeats in 3rd decan Pisces and 1st decan Aries.

The decan wheel is a circle regardless, so navigate from wherever you feel comfortable.  That is to say that IMO you’re not missing a hidden meaning of the 5 of Wands; just consider where on that decan wheel you would find a place or places to use as mental anchor points that work for you. Just make sure to note where on the decan wheel the inconsistency with planetary correspondences lies: Mars for both 3rd decan Pisces and 1st decan Aries and count accordingly.  

I’d love to hear more of your thoughts on the subject!

 

 

[Aeon418]

On 6/22/2024 at 5:15 AM, Oink said:

That is to say that IMO you’re not missing a hidden meaning of the 5 of Wands

 

Beyond the fact that the first decan of Leo contains the significant star Cor Leonis or Regulus - the Heart of the Lion, I suspect the Golden Dawn originators of the Tarot Wheel (most probably Mathers) wanted a fiery and energetic card to initiate the sequence. Crowley describes the 5 of Wands as "volcanic." This is the explosive energy required to break through the inertia of Saturn and start a new cycle.

 

Despite the bad reputation the Fives normally get, Crowley saw these cards as motion or energy entering into a fixed situation. Only to the extent that this disruption is unwanted is it perceived as "evil."  

[Misterei]

On 6/21/2024 at 9:15 PM, Oink said:

 

1. the Chaldean order beginning with Saturn
2. the 5 Wands being Saturn in 0° / first decan of Leo
3. wanting Saturn to appear at 0° / first decan of a sign rather than the 10° middle or 20° tail end
4. the only other option would be 0° / first decan of Pisces, but then there’s the pesky issue of dividing a 360 degree / 36 segments zodiac wheel by 7 planets. Mars repeats in 3rd decan Pisces and 1st decan Aries

OK, per the link above, we seem to be talking about two different topics. Decans and Planetary Hours.

 

Vis a vis DECANS [the topic]

Decans of Leo are:  #1 Sun, #2 Jupiter, #3 Mars in Vedic style and I think also Modern western.

I understand that Thoth and GD are using an older system [Chaldean or Hellenist] based on apparent speed.

Thus Decans of leo are #1 Saturn, #2 Jupiter, #3 Mars in Chaldean system.

As I've not studied this system it makes no sense to me. Why is Leo Decan #1 ruled by Saturn [the slowest planet]?

 

The Vedic system has a logic. Decan #1 is ruled by the Sign's ruler and the following decans by that planet's "Friends",

Thus Decans of Taurus are #1 Venus [Taurus ruler], #2 Mercury [venus friend] #3 Saturn [venus friend]

Also logical: the Decans' planetary lords are associated with the other Earth signs [virgo / mercury and capricorn / saturn]

 

In Chaldean system Taurus #1 Mercury, #2 Moon, #3 Saturn.

I understand the order is based-on apparent speed. What I don't understand is the rationale for beginning things with Saturn ... ?

What is the logic here? How does Moon [ruler of Cancer] relate to Taurus?

Per previous para, at least the Mercury and Saturn decans relate to Taurus as rulers of the other Earth signs.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Planetary HOURS are quite different than Decans.

Although predictablu the Chaldeans did it differently than the Indians 🙄

Both systems agree that Sunrise hour is ruled by the Dina Lord [Day's lord]. Thus Monday sunrise is Moon hour, Tuesday sunrise is Mars hour, and so on.

The Chaldean order is, again, based-on apparent speed. The Indian system orders the hours:

Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars.

 

But this is off topic of DECANS. I included it only as a disambiguation since people are mixing references to planetary hours into the Decans topic.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Misterei

[Misterei]

On 6/23/2024 at 5:59 AM, Aeon418 said:

 Crowley describes the 5 of Wands as "volcanic." This is the explosive energy required to break through the inertia of Saturn and start a new cycle.

The title of the card as Strife seems in line with the idea that the decan is ruled by Saturn [in this system--not in Vedic]. In Vedic mythos Saturn is the mortal enemy of the Sun, thus I would suspect him ruling a Decan of Leo would cause Strife 😆