Various Sibilla Decks

[Ferrea]

In order to not go off-topic in this thread I thought it might be nice to create a new one dedicated to the comparison of Sibilla (like) decks.

 

On 11/30/2024 at 11:49 AM, akiva said:

Yeah the Masenghini is a bit like shuffling credit cards. I ended up rubbing the backs of the cards against a table edge and that softened them a bit, but it's not for riffling it seems. Which sucks as it has the best colouring imo 😊

 

You got a white border LS? You're so lucky! I'm not surprised it's your favourite. My black border one looks like it's taken a huge beating. Out of the Zingara and '800 which do you prefer? Both have been on my 'to get list' for a while.

 

Have you considered trimming the Il Meneghello? It seems to have nice square inner borders so might be an easy job? Though that doesn't fix the sloppy colouring 😆

 

Definitely the Zingara, it's softer on the eye. The images in the ’800 are a bit overloaded, I think. I really appreciate Luigi Scapini's work, but for the way I like to read Sibilla, there is just too much going on visually.

The first comparison in the photo nicely illustrates the issue I have with the the ’800. A message, originally very neutral, by whatever means, of whatever information, is now very specifically "framed" in a more romantic context (otherwise, Luigi, why the picture on the wall?). Also, the process of receiving a message becomes more pronounced than just the message itself. Like a neutral to positive leaning version of Il Dispiacere (1P).

 

[akiva]

Thanks for detailing some of the differences for me @Ferrea. I agree with all your points, and seeing them side by side like that I'd definitely pick the Zingara for much the same reasons as you.

 

I do have to ask, any theories as to why the '800 L'amante card looks like a bad acid trip? 🤣

 

Did you also see this on amazon? It's a sibilla coming out in June 2025 done by Caitlín Matthew’s and illustrated by Anastasia Kashian. I'll attach the image of the box, which is all that's been revealed afaik:

 

 

I'd need to see some cards first, but I quite like Kashian's art work on the cover. Will be interesting to see if purple jacket guy is in any of the cards. Maybe Grand Consolation? He's a bit too colourful for widower or priest, maybe doctor? 😯

[Ferrea]

7 hours ago, akiva said:

I'd need to see some cards first, but I quite like Kashian's art work on the cover. Will be interesting to see if purple jacket guy is in any of the cards. Maybe Grand Consolation? He's a bit too colourful for widower or priest, maybe doctor? 😯

 

THAT Anastasia Kashian? Never heard of her before. But the Dino de Marseille is wild. Funnily, I just found a little T-Rex on the street today and took it home with me (it should still be in my coat pocket). But yes, watching a flip through on Youtube has become mandatory for me before buying anything.

 

Btw, do you use this one you posted in the postman thread? I saw it second hand somewhere else, but only then did I realise that it has other associations than vera sibilla.

 

 

8 hours ago, akiva said:

I do have to ask, any theories as to why the '800 L'amante card looks like a bad acid trip? 🤣

 

This could indicate love bombing. At least that's a vibe I get from this card.

 

 

[Rose Lalonde]

The only Sibilla deck I own is the Dal Negro 'Misteri della Sibilla' I saw on Alidastore many years ago and popped into my cart with my tarot order, because I liked the watercolors, and it was cheap. It's not that much more today. Decent card stock, imo (whippy but durable, and just a slight feeling of laminate). I never got into Sibilla (yet), and couldn't tell you how well this deck is done, but thought I'd add it to your comparison list. It's been in print since 1982, and you can judge how they handled Dispiacere that you mentioned earlier. (Photo is from Tarot Garden, though they don't currently have it in stock.)

 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Rose Lalonde

[akiva]

15 hours ago, Ferrea said:

THAT Anastasia Kashian? Never heard of her before. But the Dino de Marseille is wild. Funnily, I just found a little T-Rex on the street today and took it home with me (it should still be in my coat pocket). But yes, watching a flip through on Youtube has become mandatory for me before buying anything.

I hope so as I love the Dino de Marseille art work! I'm looking forward to seeing a flip through of this sibilla. Though it seems the be themed, and I'm not sure how I feel about that yet. 

 

15 hours ago, Ferrea said:

Btw, do you use this one you posted in the postman thread? I saw it second hand somewhere else, but only then did I realise that it has other associations than vera sibilla.

I dabble with it. It reads similar to a sibilla, but there's no literature on it that I could find, so I'm not sure if there's a specific method. It's fun to use though, and the keywords give more than enough for intuition to play off of.

 

Also it's a Masenghini deck so the cards will survive nuclear armageddon 😆

 

12 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

The only Sibilla deck I own is the Dal Negro 'Misteri della Sibilla' I saw on Alidastore many years ago and popped into my cart with my tarot order, because I liked the watercolors, and it was cheap. It's not that much more today. Decent card stock, imo (whippy but durable, and just a slight feeling of laminate).

Ah yes the Misteri Sibilla! Dal Negro card stock is some of the best. Their Italian regional cardstock beat Modianos by a mile.

 

12 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

I never got into Sibilla (yet), and couldn't tell you how well this deck is done, but thought I'd add it to your comparison list. It's been in print since 1982, and you can judge how they handled Dispiacere that you mentioned earlier. (Photo is from Tarot Garden, though they don't currently have it in stock.)

Thanks for adding it. Iirc the Misteri Sibilla is visually unique in this family of decks, so definitely stands out! The deck seems a lot less busy than the '800 is, which shouldn't detract from the core meaning of the card 😄

[akiva]

Sibilla Indovina is another worth comparing. I believe it's of French origin but LS now print it. 

 

Here's some images I found on the net:

 

And a nice clear letter card:

 

It's worth bearing in mind some of the images are reflective of the era it was created, which was ~18th/19th century.

 

And here's a list of Sibilla decks for sale on an Italian site. It's so interesting to see the wider range of styles in the Sibilla family. 

Edited December 2, 2024 by akiva

[Ferrea]

On 12/2/2024 at 2:47 AM, Rose Lalonde said:

The only Sibilla deck I own is the Dal Negro 'Misteri della Sibilla' I saw on Alidastore many years ago and popped into my cart with my tarot order, because I liked the watercolors, and it was cheap. It's not that much more today. Decent card stock, imo (whippy but durable, and just a slight feeling of laminate). I never got into Sibilla (yet), and couldn't tell you how well this deck is done, but thought I'd add it to your comparison list. It's been in print since 1982, and you can judge how they handled Dispiacere that you mentioned earlier. (Photo is from Tarot Garden, though they don't currently have it in stock.)

 

 

That's a really sweet deck, I think. I have it on my Amazon wish/watch list. As the price kept going down, I was tempted to buy it. But I might resist this one. 

Please report when you get to play with it!

 

 

17 hours ago, akiva said:

Sibilla Indovina is another worth comparing. I believe it's of French origin but LS now print it. 

 

Here's some images I found on the net:

 

And a nice clear letter card:

 

It's worth bearing in mind some of the images are reflective of the era it was created, which was ~18th/19th century.

 

And here's a list of Sibilla decks for sale on an Italian site. It's so interesting to see the wider range of styles in the Sibilla family. 

 

This was initially published by Grimaud. Here are some pictures of a vintage version. There is an even older version with thick cards—really thick, like cardboard—and sharp corners. It has a beautiful backside, a pink checked pattern, if I remember correctly.
I had a few uncanny experiences with the first one, so I let it go. The recent one came with a lot I acquired. Maybe I'll give it another try. The essence of the scenes could be easily translated into modern-day experiences. I'm curious what méchante femme might have to tell me now.

 

 

[akiva]

2 hours ago, Ferrea said:

This was initially published by Grimaud. Here are some pictures of a vintage version. There is an even older version with thick cards—really thick, like cardboard—and sharp corners. It has a beautiful backside, a pink checked pattern, if I remember correctly.
I had a few uncanny experiences with the first one, so I let it go. The recent one came with a lot I acquired. Maybe I'll give it another try. The essence of the scenes could be easily translated into modern-day experiences. I'm curious what méchante femme might have to tell me now.

It is a lovely deck, though the white backgrounds in the PS make the illustrations a lot harsher, particularly QD and her crazed expression. 

Where did you get your lot from? I look on Ebay sometimes, but it seems to be the same sort of oracle decks getting lumped together for sale.

I'd run for the hills if Ménchante Femme tried to tell me anything 🤣

 

Another interesting French Sibilla is the Petit Sorcier. It's like a dumbed down version of the Petit Etteilla. In this deck the Ménchante Femme is more of a backstabber, which I think comes from the QD being associated to Rachel:

[Mirror]

I love The Parlour Sybil...it's like an old gossip! I don't know the Petit Sorcier but it looks gorgeous 😍 It'll be interesting to see the Matthews/Kashian when it comes out.
Another Scapini one is La Magica Sibilla, I like the art and sepia tone but the cards are massive. I tend to use the Masenghini (below the Scapini) which has much smaller cards.

[Ferrea]

4 hours ago, akiva said:

Where did you get your lot from? I look on Ebay sometimes, but it seems to be the same sort of oracle decks getting lumped together for sale.

 

Yes, Ebay. Occasionally I have been very lucky looking there.

[akiva]

On 12/3/2024 at 3:05 PM, Mirror said:

Another Scapini one is La Magica Sibilla, I like the art and sepia tone but the cards are massive. I tend to use the Masenghini (below the Scapini) which has much smaller cards.

The sepia tone is lovely, but you're right, the size does look huge. And why? It's a sibilla, it doesn't need to be big! 😅

 

On 12/3/2024 at 4:30 PM, Ferrea said:

 

Yes, Ebay. Occasionally I have been very lucky looking there.

I'll have to keep my eyes peeled and see what comes up. Maybe looking at playing card job lots might be luckier 😊

[Scandinavianhermit]

I think it would be prudent to keep the family of decks derived from Sibylle des Salons (1840s) and the family of decks derived from Vera Sibilla (1890) apart.

 

 Oracolo della Sibilla (1980) is allegedly a hybrid between those two families of cartomancy decks.

 

I have no idea where Il Vostro Destino fits into this family tree.

 

 

[katrinka]

On 12/1/2024 at 7:47 PM, Rose Lalonde said:

I never got into Sibilla (yet), and couldn't tell you how well this deck is done, but thought I'd add it to your comparison list.

 

It sticks fairly close to Vera Sibilla. Any Italian Sibilla that does that is fine.
 

On 12/1/2024 at 6:50 AM, Ferrea said:

Definitely the Zingara, it's softer on the eye. The images in the ’800 are a bit overloaded, I think. I really appreciate Luigi Scapini's work, but for the way I like to read Sibilla, there is just too much going on visually.

Yes. Scapini always strikes me as trying too hard, there's too much going on, too many attempts at whimsy and romance, too 'loud.' YMMV of course.

I do have the "Sibilla Della Zingara", the one shown in the second row of the photo. (And I consider myself VERY lucky to have snagged a copy before LS ruined it with black borders and title bars!) It's actually a reproduction of an old deck published by Faustino Solisio in 1935. A lot of the images are taken from old paintings. Here's Anthony Van Dyck's portrait of King Charles I of England:

 

And the Gran Signore card:

 

And there are others. This is taken from the cover of a book by Emanuel Santos. I couldn't tell you if the book traces the images sources or not, as I haven't read it. But you'll definitely recognise the images:

 

The Faustino Solesio is a beautiful deck and it reads true.

I use that one and the Sibilla 1850 from Il Meneghello, a La Vera type deck. Both are sumptuous, the Faustino Solesio repro with the white borders is long OOP and the 1850 is a limited edition. So for a deck to haul around and beat up, I use another La Vera type deck, the Everyday Oracle. It's inexpensive and easily replaced. If you want to chop the borders or mark the cards with keywords while you're learning, it's no problem. If you let your friends shuffle and they crease a card, all is not lost. A beater deck is a good thing to have!
 

And those are all the Italian Sibillas I need. I never felt a need to purchase the 800 or the Scapini decks. (I do think the Misteri is pretty, though!)

The French Sibyls are completely different and I have several. I'll probably talk about those later.

There is a very good book in english available that's more than enough to get anybody started. Kaph reviews it here. I'm told the course was a total ripoff. But this book is excellent.

Edited January 31, 2025 by katrinka

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

I think it would be prudent to keep the family of decks derived from Sibylle des Salons (1840s) and the family of decks derived from Vera Sibilla (1890) apart.

I agree. They have very little in common.
Andy once defined a Sibilla deck as one with an image and a playing cards inset or correspondence. That would include these French and Italian decks, Lenormand, Jake Richards' Conjure Cards, and others. It's just a big old blanket term.

[Scandinavianhermit]

The publisher J. Gaudais seem to have published a predecessor of Sibylle des Salons ten years earlier than H. Pussey, so this particular type of deck goes back to the early 1830s.

 

https://www.wopc.co.uk/tarot/cartomancy-oracle-and-divination-cards/french-cartomancy-cards-c1830

[Ferrea]

13 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

I think it would be prudent to keep the family of decks derived from Sibylle des Salons (1840s) and the family of decks derived from Vera Sibilla (1890) apart.

 

 Oracolo della Sibilla (1980) is allegedly a hybrid between those two families of cartomancy decks.

 

I have no idea where Il Vostro Destino fits into this family tree.

 

 

 

I agree too! Hopefully, with the help of knowledgeable contributors, this thread can be a place where people learn about the differences.

 

Oracolo della Sibilla – this is the one by Giorgio Tavaglione, right?

 

[Ferrea]

8 hours ago, katrinka said:

Yes. Scapini always strikes me as trying too hard, there's too much going on, too many attempts at whimsy and romance, too 'loud.' YMMV of course.

 

 

Love is in the air... He would be the right candidate to create a Romeo and Julia Tarot deck. Oh wait! He already did that!

 

Quote

 

I do have the "Sibilla Della Zingara", the one shown in the second row of the photo. (And I consider myself VERY lucky to have snagged a copy before LS ruined it with black borders and title bars!) It's actually a reproduction of an old deck published by Faustino Solisio in 1935. A lot of the images are taken from old paintings.
[...]

 

The Faustino Solesio is a beautiful deck and it reads true.

I use that one and the Sibilla 1850 from Il Meneghello, a La Vera type deck. Both are sumptuous, the Faustino Solesio repro with the white borders is long OOP and the 1850 is a limited edition. So for a deck to haul around and beat up, I use another La Vera type deck, the Everyday Oracle. It's inexpensive and easily replaced. If you want to chop the borders or mark the cards with keywords while you're learning, it's no problem. If you let your friends shuffle and they crease a card, all is not lost. A beater deck is a good thing to have!
 

[...]

There is a very good book in english available that's more than enough to get anybody started. Kaph reviews it here. I'm told the course was a total ripoff. But this book is excellent.

 

 

Thank you for the info about the Zingara! I had no idea who created it, when, and how.

 

As far as I know, the 1850 edition is just limited until it's sold out. Then, you get the next limited edition. What may change are the shape of the corners and the box design, but the card images stay the same. Though, I've seen beautifully beaten up examplaries with a seemingly different card stock (not laminated but coated).

 

I think the book you linked to is really good. Before I got it (I guess @akiva linked it in another thread), I sourced all my information from Italian websites. Very laborious and not as detailed or in-depth as the book by Alessandra Venturi.

 

[akiva]

Here's a newer sibilla released by LS that I recently got. It's called La Sibilla Italiana

 

A couple of pictures:

 

 

The cards are fun to read and have typical themes found in these sorts of decks. The stock is a bit thin and glossy but riffles well. The packaging is a bit meh. The cards don't have their own smaller box so are basically sat loose in a recess under the book.

 

The contents of said book is actually not the worst LS guide I've read. Its a simple, explains each card, but also includes things like card multiples, which is often over looked in modern sources. There's a few card combinations too to inspire people who are newer to traditional style decks. Spreads and example readings are at the back of the book as well

 

Oh it's in Italian though, so if you don't mind that or can read it, it's worth adding to your collection imo. 

[Scandinavianhermit]

6 hours ago, Ferrea said:

Oracolo della Sibilla – this is the one by Giorgio Tavaglione, right?

Yes, indeed!

 

6 hours ago, Ferrea said:

Hopefully, with the help of knowledgeable contributors, this thread can be a place where people learn about the differences.

I hope so, too. 

 

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, akiva said:

Here's a newer sibilla released by LS that I recently got. It's called La Sibilla Italiana

That one is very nice, I've been meaning to snag a copy before they put black borders and title bars on it! 🤣
I wouldn't consider it an Italian Sibilla in the strict sense of the word. The cards don't match up to that system*
There's a lot of people cards that LS deck. Brunette man, blonde lady, young brunette man, etc. It reminds me of french sibyls in that sense, but I have no idea where it originated. LS makes some wonderful reproductions but they know nothing about history and they don't care, they just make things up. Sibilla della Zingara is "Sibyl of the Romani (g word)" and there's no evidence that Italian Sibilla came from the Roma. They insist on calling the Dondorf Lenormand "French Cartomancy" when everyone knows it's German. When the Sibilla della Zingara first came out, they said on their website that it's over 100 years old.  They say whatever they think will sell decks. I didn't know about the Faustino Solesio then, but I knew that people didn't dress like this in the early 1900's. This is obviously from the 1930's:



Every Italian Sibilla will have these cards: https://sibillareadings.wordpress.com/sibilla-basic-card-meanings/

But that deck you posted looks like a good reading deck. I'd like to know more about it. Just not from LS! 🤣


*Other than some hijinx with Presente di Pietre Presiosi, which seems to move around from deck to deck, all Italian Sibillas have the same cards. Sometimes Presente  is the 3 of Diamonds, sometimes it's the 8. I don't worry about it. It's kind of like Strength and Justice swapping positions in various Tarot decks. "When in Rome, do as the Romans."  But every Italian Sibilla deck will still have a Presente card.

Edited January 31, 2025 by katrinka

[katrinka]

8 hours ago, Ferrea said:

As far as I know, the 1850 edition is just limited until it's sold out. Then, you get the next limited edition. What may change are the shape of the corners and the box design, but the card images stay the same.

That sounds about right. These "Limited Editions" hang around for a long time, and the boxes and corners do change.

[akiva]

18 hours ago, katrinka said:

That one is very nice, I've been meaning to snag a copy before they put black borders and title bars on it! 🤣
I wouldn't consider it an Italian Sibilla in the strict sense of the word. The cards don't match up to that system*
There's a lot of people cards that LS deck. Brunette man, blonde lady, young brunette man, etc. It reminds me of french sibyls in that sense, but I have no idea where it originated.

Oh I totally agree it has French themes in it. The 8C is about falling in love with a woman (in French piquet the 8C is the love of a Brunette woman), 10D is a journey/separation and 9D is delays, both of those hit 100% with French systems.

 

Some cards are swapped too, money cards are usually the Club suit in French cartomancy, but in this deck Clubs seem to represent society and Diamonds have the money cards. 7D is small money, 8D is money but also obstacles and thwarted love. 

 

Unfortunately the guide doesn't mention the name of the deck, which is annoying!

 

18 hours ago, katrinka said:

LS makes some wonderful reproductions but they know nothing about history and they don't care, they just make things up. Sibilla della Zingara is "Sibyl of the Romani (g word)" and there's no evidence that Italian Sibilla came from the Roma.

Tbh it's kind of a time honoured tradition to falsely attribute decks to mysterious sibyls and seers. I just wish they'd find (or better yet make up) some new ones rather than using the Romani all the time.

 

Mildred Payne was a good example of deck lore made interesting. It's doable. It just requires creativity. I'd love to see an old woodcut style fortune telling deck attributed to Merlin, or something like that. 😄

 

18 hours ago, katrinka said:

Every Italian Sibilla will have these cards: https://sibillareadings.wordpress.com/sibilla-basic-card-meanings/

By that definition it couldn't be a Sibilla as it's only 32 cards 😂

[Scandinavianhermit]

3 hours ago, akiva said:

Tbh it's kind of a time honoured tradition to falsely attribute decks to mysterious sibyls and seers. I just wish they'd find (or better yet make up) some new ones rather than using the Romani all the time.

There's always Egypt. That's a classic. Pun intended. 

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, akiva said:

 

Unfortunately the guide doesn't mention the name of the deck, which is annoying!

LS never does.
There used to be a guy from LS who would hang around AT, people could talk to him. I don't recall him being so high ranking that he could change or correct anything, but people could talk to a familiar person rather than emailing a faceless corporate entity. He needs to come over here. I have a whole laundry list of things to say:

Please use the real names, dates of publication, and countries of origin when reproducing historic decks. It may surprise you to learn that the truth is actually interesting.
Why is Laura Tuan writing instruction books? She can't read cards. Please stop bundling decks with unwanted books.
If you want to sell books, translations of old Public Domain books would be nice.
Stop putting black borders and title bars, bad english translations, etc. on decks.
The Everyday Oracle is an Italian Sibilla in the La Vera pattern. Being in Italy, you should know this.
Stop making decks the size of manhole covers. Bridge size and Poker size are nice for Lenormands and Sibillas. Standard Tarot size or Pocket Size for Tarot. We still remember that ginormous Wirth with Trapper Keeper style glitter. Horrible.
The Dondorf Lenormand is not French.
The old Piatnik Lenormand is a great deck. I'm glad you've decided to republish, I have several copies and recommend it often. But all Lenormands should be "Grand Tableau Lenormands." That deck comes in a good sturdy box that can't be used as is. The deck title is just too silly. It's like "Dishrag For Dishes." We have to Mod Podge it, or throw it away and bag the deck. And hey, that box has a linen finish. Why not the cards?
Please use nicer card backs. Sibilla Della Zingara, Tarot of the Master, and the Everyday Oracle all fail in this respect. There are plenty of normal card backs in the Public Domain.

Etc.
 

5 hours ago, akiva said:

Tbh it's kind of a time honoured tradition to falsely attribute decks to mysterious sibyls and seers. I just wish they'd find (or better yet make up) some new ones rather than using the Romani all the time.

 

Mildred Payne was a good example of deck lore made interesting. It's doable. It just requires creativity. I'd love to see an old woodcut style fortune telling deck attributed to Merlin, or something like that. 😄

Yes, but the Fenwood Asylum stories are entertaining. Patrick doesn't expect anyone to actually believe that stuff. It's all in fun.

As for Merlin, that's not a bad idea! I'd go with weird old alchemical illustrations. Something like these.

[Scandinavianhermit]

23 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 I have a whole laundry list of things to say:

Please use the real names, dates of publication, and countries of origin when reproducing historic decks. It may surprise you to learn that the truth is actually interesting.
Why is Laura Tuan writing instruction books? She can't read cards. Please stop bundling decks with unwanted books.
If you want to sell books, translations of old Public Domain books would be nice.
Stop putting black borders and title bars, bad english translations, etc. on decks.
The Everyday Oracle is an Italian Sibilla in the La Vera pattern. Being in Italy, you should know this.
Stop making decks the size of manhole covers. Bridge size and Poker size are nice for Lenormands and Sibillas. Standard Tarot size or Pocket Size for Tarot. We still remember that ginormous Wirth with Trapper Keeper style glitter. Horrible.
The Dondorf Lenormand is not French.
The old Piatnik Lenormand is a great deck. I'm glad you've decided to republish, I have several copies and recommend it often. But all Lenormands should be "Grand Tableau Lenormands." That deck comes in a good sturdy box that can't be used as is. The deck title is just too silly. It's like "Dishrag For Dishes." We have to Mod Podge it, or throw it away and bag the deck. And hey, that box has a linen finish. Why not the cards?
Please use nicer card backs. Sibilla Della Zingara, Tarot of the Master, and the Everyday Oracle all fail in this respect. There are plenty of normal card backs in the Public Domain.

Etc.

You are READING MY MIND! 😲