Getting away from the "soul deep" dive into more concrete things ?

[Celine]

Hello,

 

How do you bring Tarot into concrete life ? Or do you use it mainly for "(self-)investigation" ? 

 

I came to Tarot by way of Rachel Pollack. I have loved the depths it showed but...

In a more mundane aspect, I don't want it. I don't need to get more inside myself, I don't need to know more about my hidden feelings etc (I'm simplifying, and at the risk of sounding smug : I don't need to explore myself. Or others, for that matter). 

 

The thing is, it seems every book  I come across is about that : exploration, soul dive, hidden stuff. I love it to explore certain things, yes. But how do I disentangle myself from that approach to something more concrete ? Because all in all, I'll always prefer a good psychoanalysis to my long winded romanticised stuff.

 

Yes, part of that is that I'm not doing it well - I barely started. As I write I realise that it's mainly my own fault. I look at cards and I read big patterns/deep messages  (that I probably shove into it), but concretely : nothing. 

 

I know my message is vague, and in fact it's about that too : how do you get less vague, and more real ? 

(I was wondering whether committing to Lenormand for a while would help to plug myself back onto real life)

 

Moderators : feel free to close this if it's absolute nonsense 😄

 

Celine

 

Edited December 7, 2024 by Celine

[DanielJUK]

It's not absolute nonsense, it's a valid discussion 🤣

 

It's become very popular and on trend in the last 10 years perhaps to do a deep dive / use for self-help / psychological reading and so many books reflect that. Before that though, the books were all about fortune-telling and not the psychological.

 

There are so many ways of using tarot, you just have to find what works best for you! Some people use it for magick and spells. Some people for reading on the mundane, I would use that term differently to here. I think this could really help you. Why not read on your day or things going on in your life, read on your mundane life more often rather than what's my soul's purpose? or something like that 🙂 . The other part is predictive reading, some people like it, some people don't. I think most people use it in their readings and don't realise it. This is mostly my style of reading and I like to read on my day, what is coming up for me and looking at my life without going too deep.  I think reading on actual events (past / present / future), moves you away from the deep reading. I use it for fortune-telling, not psychological work mostly personally.

 

It's supposed to be helpful to you, so you can use it how it works best for you 🙂 

[Mirror]

I don't think it's nonsense either. As DanielJUK says, there's quite a swing towards the deeper dive explorations and away from prediction/fortune telling. I tend to a bit of both, and a look at how your day might pan out, or using the cards to find lost items for instance, can help keep things on a practical level and away from any soul oversearch. I'm the go-to person in my family for missing things, which is a hoot, especially as I often have to apply lateral thinking or a play on words to a card. I also draw cards for the odd reality TV show, as there will always be a conclusion and result. I find that's a great way to disappear into the language of the cards without the super-deep stuff..

[Raggydoll]

When I started out with tarot, there was no talk about self exploration or personal development. That came later. “Shadow work” became a trend, and ‘fortune telling’ became a bad word (more or less). 
 

My advice is to practice seeing the literal and more down to earth meanings in each card. Daily readings can help with this, because they are often much less spiritual in nature. You could also look at older card meanings, as well as playing card associations. 

[GreyBug]

I second the above advice - seeing tarot in a practical manner is a matter of practice. What would each card be if it was representing a place? A time? (Is this card a morning card? A month-cycle card? A Wednesday card?) What would each card be if it was a person you're likely to meet in your daily life? (The 6 of Coins as a bank teller, the Chariot as an Uber driver). It's a useful exercise to do. Recently each card has been "elevated" to the spiritual level and many people had to learn that, having come from the more "mundane" fortune telling way of the past. If you learned the spiritual way first, you can reverse-engineer that process and work out the "mundane" meanings. But you won't just start seeing them in readings if you don't put in the work of expanding your understanding. Think of your most boring day - what is the Tower? Maybe you get a splinter, maybe the pile of dishes in your sink falls over. What is the 3 of Swords? Maybe you're slightly disappointed that some plans fell through, or a friend doesn't respond to your text. It's just a different way of thinking, and you'll find it, I'm sure.

[GreyBug]

Ooh, I had another idea: try being more visual, and maybe even a pip deck/playing cards would be more helpful. If you see just a layout of symbols and figures it might be easier to come up with literal stories: the Family Woman is looking at past Disaster (let's say the Queen of Cups turned to the left, looking at the Tower), while just behind her - to the right/future - the 8 of Coins looks like a feast table, all set and ready for celebration and togetherness. You could make it deep if you wanted to, but it just looks like someone hung up on the past who could use more fun socializing.

[Inceyn]

I have some ritual practices I use before readings, but they definitely frame things for deeper spiritual/self-reflective dives. What are some things I can do to help get me in the right state of mind for "mundane readings"? I feel like I need a mantra or something to ground myself in intuition, but I don't want it to be too formal.

[Celine]

I'm having a blast with all your replies. The exercise of looking for a card you pull around you is often told, yet I had never grasped how it could help that way. I'll definitely put more focus on that. 

The cards I draw never seem to match anything though, but it may be that...I'm not literal enough! Once I pulled 3 cards just before an evening out I was worried about. I poured all kinds of soul wrenching jam

 

Regarding the example with the 3 of Swords (RWS): I had that one one morning (I tend to pull swords a lot). On my way to work I found a swiss knife in the gutter. I decided that was my 3 of Swords: red, with blades!

 

Oh thank you all, I'm back in the saddle. (The difficulty is I don't have a very eventful life but I'll do my best)

[Ix Chel]

I use the cards mainly for predictions. Everybody has their own Tarot style. There is no right or wrong way to work with the cards. You will use the cards, in the way you need them at the moment. For a better understanding of the card meanings, I would advise to start a Tarot Journal. Your Journal will be your own Tarot book.

 

 

[Celine]

Your replies have greatly helped, I hope it will help others too !

 

On 12/7/2024 at 10:49 AM, DanielJUK said:

Why not read on your day or things going on in your life, read on your mundane life more often rather than what's my soul's purpose? or something like that 🙂

 

Yes, that's the crux of it. I realise my questions suck. I'll try to keep to mundane, simple questions for a couple of weeks and see what comes out of it, like "something good that will happen, something bad that will happen, a situation I'll encounter" (nope, I don't have any more imagination than that 😄 ))

 

On 12/7/2024 at 12:26 PM, Mirror said:

a look at how your day might pan out, or using the cards to find lost items for instance, can help keep things on a practical level and away from any soul oversearch.

Yes I'll try that but my life is so uneventful ! Ooooh finding lost items and the work it implies on using the cards for that... that's a great (and difficult to me) exercise. 

 

On 12/7/2024 at 2:05 PM, Raggydoll said:

My advice is to practice seeing the literal and more down to earth meanings in each card. Daily readings can help with this, because they are often much less spiritual in nature. You could also look at older card meanings, as well as playing card associations.

Yes, but that's what I'm struggling with ! However looking at older card meanings etc could indeed help me. I find that Lenormand has a nice way of forcing me to downsize my philosophical musings. 

 

On 12/7/2024 at 4:13 PM, GreyBug said:

What would each card be if it was representing a place? A time? (Is this card a morning card? A month-cycle card? A Wednesday card?) What would each card be if it was a person you're likely to meet in your daily life? (The 6 of Coins as a bank teller, the Chariot as an Uber driver). It's a useful exercise to do.

I love that ! It's funny because it's something that comes back often but I hadn't understood it that way. Ooooh I love that, now in your words it makes sense. 

 

22 hours ago, GreyBug said:

Ooh, I had another idea: try being more visual, and maybe even a pip deck/playing cards would be more helpful. If you see just a layout of symbols and figures it might be easier to come up with literal stories

Thank you ! I'm pretty sure that with my current handicap (let's all it that) I'll philosophize till the cows come home on pip cards too. But I keep that in a corner of my mind, it sure appeals to me.

 

19 hours ago, Inceyn said:

What are some things I can do to help get me in the right state of mind for "mundane readings"?

Yes, with me it will end up in a muddy puddle, and circling the rabbit hole. But it's true that often asking the deck "how to do this" gets me replies I find both hilarious and true, so that's a good reminder !

 

17 hours ago, Ix Chel said:

I would advise to start a Tarot Journal. Your Journal will be your own Tarot book.

Thank you, I have! I have conscientiously filled up dozens and dozens of pages with mostly deep nonsense. I embroider and flesh out like a master. I'll continue to keep a journal, but force myself to look for things "from this world". In a nutshell : I want to see the 4 of Pentacles meaning I have a backache or constipation is looming (sorry) rather than dive into "am I too materialistic" looking at the books I can't stop buying 😄 

 

I'm also into the Mary K Greer "Complete book on reversals", where she more often than not provides also "mundane" meanings. We'll see how that works out. 

Have a wonderful Sunday !

 

Celine

[Ferrea]

I disagree with the sentiment that tarot as a tool for self-exploration/psychological inquiry is a new trend. I'm truly puzzled reading that. Or did I just fall into a time hole?

Viva la alchimista! All hail the Golden Dawn!

 

Besides this, I think it's a lot of fun to explore the mundane end of the cards' spectrum. I find that both approaches can yield interesting/accurate results even in everday dish-tower readings: using keywords similar to Lenormand or interpreting the imagery strictly intuitively. Lately, my personal preference has been the latter. Of course, it also depends on the decks one uses.

[Misterei]

17 minutes ago, Ferrea said:

I disagree with the sentiment that tarot as a tool for self-exploration/psychological inquiry is a new trend. I'm truly puzzled reading that. Or did I just fall into a time hole?

Viva la alchimista! All hail the Golden Dawn!

You bring up an interesting point. Tarocchi, although invented as a game, definitely had spiritual themes. So even the game tarocchi had a spiritual component. But I think the fortune tellers who first started using Tarocchi to tell fortunes, weren't going for either Spiritual or Psychological reads. And so it was for prolly 300-400 years until the GD and later RWS introduced a spiritual component back into the cards [albeit their own Hermetic Kabbala spirituality which was different than the original NeoPlatonic / Christian themed tarocchi.]

Psychological tarot *is* relatively new. It arose from Jungian psychology in the 1960s. The use of the cards for spiritual exploration we might date back to the Occult Revival of the late 1800s and early 1900s spawned by GD, AE Waite, the Theosophical society, etc.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Misterei

[Scandinavianhermit]

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

And so it was for prolly 300-400 years until the GD and later RWS introduced a spiritual component back into the cards [albeit their own Hermetic Kabbala spirituality which was different than the original NeoPlatonic / Christian themed tarocchi.]

It began to happen a few (or several) decades before GD and RWS, and it began in France, not UK.

 

The semi-kabbalistic idea to assign a correspondence between each trump + The Fool and the 22 Hebrew letters began in 1781, when comte de Mellet introduced the idea.  

 

Etteilla's disciple d'Odoucet wrote Cours de la Science des Signes ou Médecine de l'Esprit (1804), which includes a fairly detailed list of alchemical interpretations of each tarot card.

 

Eliphas Levi reshuffled the Hebrew alphabet twice in the 1850s and 1860s, and his mature correspondence list was transmitted by Paul Christian, Oswald Wirth and Papus. Eliphas Levi only published a few of his drawings of modified trumps, so the first full version of a spiritualised and kabbalised set of tarot trumps was the Oswald Wirth trumps of 1889. Wirth never drew any pip cards, but he modified his own trumps in 1926. Some of Wirth's ideas from 1889 actually influenced the RWS of 1909. 

[Scandinavianhermit]

On 12/7/2024 at 9:35 AM, Celine said:

Hello,

 

How do you bring Tarot into concrete life ? Or do you use it mainly for "(self-)investigation" ? 

 

I recommend Paul Huson's books, and:

 

Etteilla (tr. Kerry A. Nitz): Theory and Practical Instruction in the Book of Thoth (New Zealand, 2022), particularly pages 55-74. Etteilla changed the numbering of the 22 trumps + Fool, but it all becomes obvious when you have changed the sequence back again. 

 

[GreyBug]

I think we might be talking about two parallel things. There were always the White Published Men with time and money they could dedicate to study, philosophy, esotericism, and so their dealings with tarot became the "elevated" official version we can point to when we're trying to prove something about tarot's history. And there were always poorer, marginalized people who used the cards (and anything else, really) in a way that helps them withstand and navigate "real life".

 

So when I in particular said it's a new trend, I meant "among the masses". The revival of tarot (in the popular public consciousness) in the 1960s and now again in the 2020s led to a massive influx of people into the tarot world who are not - in the majority - scholars of the esoteric. Or even of psychology, if we want to go modern. So it is interesting that they/we have turned towards the psychological en masse, enough for it to be a noticeable trend, even in publishing (with a broader range of authors now able to spread their ideas and understanding). Rarely - never?- in the West do I see strict predictive meanings presented in modern study materials. (I do see them in Polish decks, "The Magician - diplomacy, an illness, loss, will power. Reversed - a scam, a doctor, offense" - many of them make no sense to me and I often wondered what tradition they grew out of.)

 

9 hours ago, Ferrea said:

Viva la alchimista! All hail the Golden Dawn!

I admit I know next to nothing about alchemy, but would those spiritual activities be analogous to the "inner work" we talk about today using tarot? Tarot answering questions like "Why am I so x about y, and how can I better be z?" - is that what the Magicians would have been doing, when using the Tarot for its "deeper" purpose?

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by GreyBug

[Ferrea]

1 minute ago, GreyBug said:

I think we might be talking about two parallel things. There were always the White Published Men with time and money they could dedicate to study, philosophy, esotericism, and so their dealings with tarot became the "elevated" official version we can point to when we're trying to prove something about tarot's history. And there were always poorer, marginalized people who used the cards (and anything else, really) in a way that helps them withstand and navigate "real life".

 

So when I in particular said it's a new trend, I meant "among the masses". The revival of tarot (in the popular public consciousness) in the 1960s and now again in the 2020s led to a massive influx of people into the tarot world who are not - in the majority - scholars of the esoteric. Or even of psychology, if we want to go modern. So it is interesting that they/we have turned towards the psychological en masse, enough for it to be a noticeable trend, even in publishing. Rarely - never?- in the West do I see strict predictive meanings presented in modern study materials. (I do see them in Polish decks, "The Magician - diplomacy, an illness, loss, will power. Reversed - a scam, a doctor, offense" - many of them make no sense to me and I often wondered what tradition they grew out of.)

 

I admit I know next to nothing about alchemy, but would those spiritual activities be analogous to the "inner work" we talk about today using tarot? Tarot answering questions like "Why am I so x about y, and how can I better be z?" - is that what the Magicians would have been doing, when using the Tarot for its "deeper" purpose?

 

You're right to make the distinction between common people and an intellectual or spiritual elite. There may also be national differences in regards to topics being in the focus of publishers. When I got into tarot twenty years ago, it was all about psychology. I might not be fully aware of the second psycho-wave of the 2020s, the impact it had on the masses, and how it has influenced the perception of tarot as a consequence.

Though, I wouldn't call something that has been going on for 60 years now a trend. As you write, there is little literature on the CSW being mainly used for prediction. 

 

Regarding your last question: I'd say yes, it's analogous. Alchemists were concerned with the purification and transmutation of their inner selves, much like people today. The language and reference points are different, but the underlying needs are similar. The word "trauma" was quite likely absent back then. I assume that practicing magicians are interested in increasing their effectiveness in the world, and for this, self-awareness is certainly key, with tarot serving as a tool to aid in that endeavour.

 

 

 

 

[GreyBug]

24 minutes ago, Ferrea said:

Alchemists were concerned with the purification and transmutation of their inner selves, much like people today. The language and reference points are different, but the underlying needs are similar.

This is very interesting, trying to consider how all these spiritual quests were conceived of and accomplished without the psychological framework we now have. I expect most of our inner goings-on were considered the domain of the spirit? I have encountered the ideas vaguely - transcendence, reaching God etc - but I can't from my modern perspective understand how the people of the past understood it. Would it have come with practical steps as well - "to reach this purer/more compassionate state, hold your tongue against the first words that spring to it, and see your fellow man (whoever that applied to) through the eyes of God" etc. ...?

[Scandinavianhermit]

4 hours ago, GreyBug said:

I think we might be talking about two parallel things. There were always the White Published Men with time and money they could dedicate to study, philosophy, esotericism, and so their dealings with tarot became the "elevated" official version we can point to when we're trying to prove something about tarot's history. And there were always poorer, marginalized people who used the cards (and anything else, really) in a way that helps them withstand and navigate "real life".

Yes, I agree with you. 

 

4 hours ago, GreyBug said:

(I do see them in Polish decks, "The Magician - diplomacy, an illness, loss, will power. Reversed - a scam, a doctor, offense" - many of them make no sense to me and I often wondered what tradition they grew out of.)

The association with illness and doctors comes from Etteilla in the 1780s, but the other keywords looks like they are drawn from other sources. My educated guess is, that Le Bateleur looked like travelling salesmen of medicines available to the common man. Doesn't Le Bateleur's bag look a little bit like a doctor's bag? De la Salette added "charlatan" to this trump, because in the 18th century physicians weren't particularly efficient. "A scam" probably comes from the original depiction of Le Bateleur as the sort of mountebank found at fairs, moving marbles under upside down cups on a table.

Edited December 10, 2024 by Scandinavianhermit

[GreyBug]

@Scandinavianhermit Yes, I understand some of the meanings - for example the scam as part of the Bateleur as you said - but the mix is what was always puzzling. Part RWS, part TdM, and it seems at least part Etteilla in some cases. Perhaps I have to finally look into that system. Did I see correctly that the Dame Fortune's Wheel is based on his meanings? I'm getting it (and the Visconti Sforza) for Christmas, maybe it's the perfect time to learn.

[DanielJUK]

Let's get back to the topic which is...

 

Getting away from the "soul deep" dive into more concrete things ?

 

On 12/7/2024 at 8:35 AM, Celine said:

How do you bring Tarot into concrete life ? Or do you use it mainly for (self-)investigation" ? 

 

[RunningWild]

You could write a short story.  The Major Arcana could be the subject of the story, the Courts are the people, the minors would be the action.  See what you come up with.  Just make sure to keep it all in the context of the everyday (mundane) world.

 

 

[Celine]

The Complete book of Reversals (Mary K Greer) is very helpful in focusing (if one wishes) on "concrete" aspects. I'm so glad I got it (her Tarot for Yourself really was too out there for my taste). Her texts are concise and touch upon many aspects, and easy to look up.

 

I find using Tarot about stories (whether to write one or about a novel you're reading) quite easy and productive, and it may, with time, help connect it to everyday happenings, though it would be very slow and somewhat going around it.

 

And I suppose that's what I have put the least in all this, actual time, the thing one can't speed up, you just have to go through it.

 

So that's where I'm at now, just accepting it will take time, that patience is required as wel as doing a bit every day. No amount of studying will replace actual practice I guess. And...if I'm honest I've started Lenormand (oh what a treat !!), so I do both : a three card draw with LN, a draw with Tarot. It's too soon to tell, but so far I find it either helps focus on the "concrete"...or shows I still am clueless with Tarot ! 

 

I just need to be able to put in more than that (daily draw, I mean) but I have yet to find inspiration. 

 

Sorry for those who might have the same struggle, I don't mean to divert the focus onto yet another thing to learn (but that's why I referenced the book first 😉). 

 

 

[Misterei]

On 12/10/2024 at 12:07 AM, GreyBug said:

I think we might be talking about two parallel things. There were always the White Published Men with time and money they could dedicate to study, philosophy, esotericism, and so their dealings with tarot became the "elevated" official version ... And there were always poorer, marginalized people who used the cards (and anything else, really) in a way that helps them withstand and navigate "real life".

Exactly. Going to the original topic, I find that certain older books and methods focus on a more concrete Tarot reading. I'm happy I learnt on Eden Gray's book Tarot Revealed. She had some spiritual stuff in there, but all-in-all it was practical and down to earth. Personally, I find using older decks like Tarocchi and TdM can connect me with the older fortune-telling tradition of common people using cartomancy for every day concerns.

On 12/10/2024 at 12:07 AM, GreyBug said:

So when I in particular said it's a new trend, I meant "among the masses". The revival of tarot (in the popular public consciousness) in the 1960s and now again in the 2020s led to a massive influx of people into the tarot world who are not - in the majority - scholars of the esoteric. Or even of psychology, if we want to go modern. So it is interesting that they/we have turned towards the psychological en masse,

Its ironic that the modern reader of today--who just wants to do some good old fashioned fortune-telling about their real life--would now have to wade through a plethora of gratuitious pop psyco-spirituality that has come to define tarot in the 2000s.

 

Thankfully, LN hasn't suffered this and it's still pretty easy to come into LN from a concrete, real life perspective. I've found that I apply certain LN techniques to Tarot since they lend themselves to more concrete, practical readings.

 

On 12/10/2024 at 1:07 AM, Ferrea said:

Regarding your last question: I'd say yes, it's analogous. Alchemists were concerned with the purification and transmutation of their inner selves, much like people today. The language and reference points are different, but the underlying needs are similar. The word "trauma" was quite likely absent back then. ...

This raises an interesting point in how it actually takes EXTRA effort for a modern reader to learn tarot in a practical [non-psychospiritual] style.

 

People of 1500s-1700s Europe were different [this is mostly where cartomancy was practiced]. They tended to be religious in ways we moderns don't necessarily understand. They felt that God or the Church would look after your soul and spiritual development. You went to confession. You prayed. Spiritual evolution wasn't seen as a do-it-yourself affair. We even see this in Astrology in the Hindu world [a bit off topic but I'll return]. If a person had anger issues this wasn't framed as trauma or psychologized. It was Mars. And one did various rites and mantras to propitiate Mars and thus heal the anger issue [for example].

 

In the modern world, people have turned away from religion en masse and even religious people tend to be religious in different ways than in, say, the 1600s. We moderns see spiritual development as a personal Do It Yourself project. And so now we've enlisted tools like Tarot and astrology into the spiritual DIY toolkit. Atheism is more widespread now and it fall into this trap even moreso. If there is nothing supernatural, then Tarots can ONLY be used for psychology and never for fortune telling or predictions since that's all superstitious nonsense according to rationalists and atheists.

 

Going back to the original topic of HOW to bring tarot into concrete life, its almost as if we need to time travel back to the days when Religion took care of your Soul and cards were there to help with your everyday life.

Edited December 11, 2024 by Misterei

[xStardustx]

I assign different decks. When I want the raw, primal, brutal truth, The Wild Unknown. 

 

When I want to explore deep symbols/concepts, Hermetic Tarot or Thoth or both. 

 

When I want the lighter side of life, Wise Dog Tarot. The Chihuahua as The Devil card makes me giggle. 

 

Also, I pull cards for my dog. 

Or I'll set my plants in front of me and pull a card for them. 

 

Sometimes, I pull a card and just have an imaginary conversation with the character in the image. 

 

"Why are you walking around with a fish in your cup? Like those kids at fairs walking around with a goldfish in their bag." 

 

"Why isn't there a fish in your cup?" 

 

"It would ruin the taste of the coffee." 

 

"If both our cups are full, who cares?" 

 

"...Well...that is a fair point." 

 

"Indeed." 

 

"Still weird to have a fish in a cup." 

 

"There's life in my cup." 

 

"Coffee IS life." 

 

"Is it though?" 

 

"Hush, child. Grown folks are having a coffee break." 

 

*Offers a whimsical smile and fades away* 

 

Bear in mind, I may not be all the way sane. Overactive imagination, think too much, feel too deep, read too deep into everything...tarot really helps my imagination run wild but in a healthy, creative, introspective way. 

 

It's how I balance between my serious study of tarot and keeping things on the lighter side. BALANCE! 

 

But I draw the line at fish in my coffee.

[geoxena]

@Celine, you might find it helpful to join in on a few of the ISG reading exchanges we have here (ISG = Intuitive Study Group).  The exercises are based solely on the imagery of the cards, without relying on "traditional" book meanings.

Edited December 18, 2024 by geoxena