BradGad Posted June 5 Author Posted June 5 (edited) > What have we here? A book meaning? Yes. Quoted right out of the book, p. 258. Shared, as I said, "for the record." It doesn't particularly resonate with me. Edited June 5 by BradGad
geoxena Posted June 5 Posted June 5 (edited) 30 minutes ago, BradGad said: I am saying that gaining the capacity to respond to the challenges faced by others, including their pain and sorrow, through empathetic experience, with an open and engaged heart is a gift. So, ultimately, other people's suffering is a gift to you? Edited June 5 by geoxena
JoyousGirl Posted June 5 Posted June 5 (edited) 55 minutes ago, geoxena said: So, ultimately, other people's suffering is a gift to you? I'm not sure he's saying that. I think he's saying (and I think he stated plainly outright in the beginning) that to be able to empathise with someone as they are experiencing the pain is a gift. What I would say to that is ordinarily we should be able to do this as a sisterhood/brotherhood of man. Somewhere along the way, economics and competition for example, and a battle of egos seeking status - a whole range and variation of these dynamics, means that many of us can walk past someone struggling and not do anything about it in our day to day lives. People are still starving, their village lives uprooted by an exploitative economic system that relies on market competition and so on. Why do we allow this? If we really had empathy we would say for example: "I'm not going to buy vanilla beans today, because deforestation for vanilla plantations in Madagascar, one of the most highly biodiverse places in the world is destroying that biodiversity", and "I'm not buying shares in Madagascar because metal miners are ousting fishermen from their homes and livelihoods and not giving them money they promised them". Or "fossil fuels are destroying the environment, so I'll catch a train or walk instead." These are conscience examples, but someone somewhere is in pain or suffering because of human actions, and resolving the suffering relies on human introspection and action based on ethics and empathy. They are us. Yet we are very much about self (yes, selfish, unthinking for the most part of what others are going through, some never thinking about how the other half live at all). We are one, yet the distractions tell us we're a family or individuals rather than part of each and every thing. So that is a gift because it can create change. If it's ok for them it's ok for us should be at the bottom of every action. That includes animals and plant life - and water and air. Edited June 5 by JoyousGirl
katrinka Posted June 5 Posted June 5 3 hours ago, geoxena said: So, ultimately, other people's suffering is a gift to you? Apparently he does consider it a gift. A good many of us have been trying to explain the wrongness of this - repeatedly - and he's still digging his heels in. It's pointless. Some are capable of learning, some aren't. And I'm getting bored.
katrinka Posted June 5 Posted June 5 3 hours ago, BradGad said: I determined to not be drawn into any arguments. I am simply not available for that discussion. But I will try to clarify a central point of my OP: I am not saying that pain and sorrow are gifts. I am saying that gaining the capacity to respond to the challenges faced by others, including their pain and sorrow, through empathetic experience, with an open and engaged heart is a gift. Actually.... But I've pointed this out before ITT. Every page or two, you deny you said it when you actually DID say it. You're just going in circles trying to get attention. See my post above. Bye.
gregory Posted June 5 Posted June 5 6 hours ago, JoyousGirl said: I'm not sure he's saying that. I think he's saying (and I think he stated plainly outright in the beginning) that to be able to empathise with someone as they are experiencing the pain is a gift. What I would say to that is ordinarily we should be able to do this as a sisterhood/brotherhood of man. My bold - I agree. But what exactly does Three Swords have to do with it ? Is it the only card that can prompt empathy in the reader ? Sure, we can gain empathy from readings - or from reading novels, watching the news, comforting a friend - but that is something WE gain; the reading is for another person. The card's message is for them.
DanielJUK Posted June 5 Posted June 5 8 hours ago, BradGad said: > What have we here? A book meaning? Yes. Quoted right out of the book, p. 258. Shared, as I said, "for the record." It doesn't particularly resonate with me. Please could you quote posts using the forum's quote system. The problem is that using text in a post breaks the threads of conversation and makes it really difficult to follow and then someone quotes the post and the words are attributed to the wrong person. The quoting system keeps posts to the same author in each post and also let's members know they have been quoted and replied to. The forum makes it so simple to quote in a box, you can use the quote button (quote under a post), multi-quote (+ button) and also you can just select text from someone else, a little button will appear on the quoted text if you leave it a sec saying "quote selection" and you can do it like that.
gregory Posted June 5 Posted June 5 Thanks Daniel - in that particular case, it is even awkward to tell which bit is the quote from Katrinka and which bits are BradGad as it is all highlighted in beige. I am ASSUMING it goes: 9 hours ago, BradGad said: 9 hours ago, katrinka said: What have we here? A book meaning? Yes. Quoted right out of the book, p. 258. Shared, as I said, "for the record." It doesn't particularly resonate with me. But....
geoxena Posted June 5 Posted June 5 (edited) 14 hours ago, JoyousGirl said: I think he's saying . . . that to be able to empathise with someone as they are experiencing the pain is a gift. Yes, I know that's what he was saying, but that still means that what he considers a "gift" (ie., what he gets out of a situation) essentially comes from someone else's pain and suffering. That's what I was pointing out. The entire concept of a gift depends on receiving something from someone or something outside of ourselves, unless one deliberately gives oneself a gift. Now, I totally get it when a person says it was an honor to be at someone else's side when they were struggling with an illness or dying. That's about the experience of connection and empathy, for sure. And yes, we can eventually learn to see aspects of our own sorrows as something that ultimately benefited us. However, what does this have to do with the Three of Swords? Like I said before, when there is pain and heartache, this card tells us to face it, period. Perhaps doing so requires empathy. However, I think that the lessons we learn from a painful event or loss come afterwards, and if the tarot shows us the paths to take in order to move on from the pain, it's through other cards in the deck. I still don't see this card as a gift. A painful, difficult, challenging lesson, possibly, but I think it's more about something we simply must endure. I don't have a large collection but, out of curiosity, I looked through my decks for any that depicted something other than a pierced heart for the Three of Swords and found these two: This is from the Tarot of the Golden Wheel. The description from the LWB: "HEART WOUND. This card reveals the sad truth, disillusionment, and sudden insight. Pain from a broken heart. Emotional shocks, tears, frequent change of mood. Rupture of relations, misunderstanding, disharmony. Insults and hysteria, attempts at manipulation, mutual reproaches. Upright: Chagrin, distress, rejection. Reversed: Sadness, recovery, confusion." This is from Legend: The Arthurian Tarot. From the LWB: "Distress. Grieving. Separation. Being haunted by the pain of the past. A difficult period of readjustment. Hurtful remarks of others. Reversed: Alienation. Disorientation. The collapse of an alliance." Where are the gifts from all that pain and distress? I'm repeating myself, but they come later, if at all. I think I'm done here. Peace out. Edited June 5 by geoxena
JoyousGirl Posted June 5 Posted June 5 4 hours ago, geoxena said: The entire concept of a gift depends on receiving something from someone or something outside of ourselves, unless one deliberately gives oneself a gift. Yes. And this was a deck interview asking about the work he and the deck would do together. So the context is different. We can walk past thousands of people each day and not think about their story. When we read for people - when we are working with the cards and engaging with these "strangers" we become confidants. They tell us things, and we are no longer strangers but intimately linked and journeying a segment of the path together in awareness of each other. So rather than being a beggar on the street with a story we walk past, we are stopping to acknowledge them, if that makes sense. So I kind of get what Brad and this deck interview is talking about now. The card itself represents pain and sorrow - yes. None of us deny that. But in the context of working with the cards/deck as a whole, which is what the reading was about, you are stepping into the story with someone, and sharing a part of the journey with someone to evolve in some way, together. We tend to care more about people if we know them and love them. This is a way of knowing them, and maybe vulnerability and pain is a way to connect so we're not all such disparate entities. There's probably been a bit of getting the wrong end of the stick. If we were to ask the cards "what are some things to expect when reading for other people" the 3 Swords might come up. It doesn't mean we'll be in pain, it means we'll be exposed to it. It's situational. As for you @BradGad - maybe take a little more time clarifying what you mean. 😄 Hope you're ok as you've felt some of the alienation, sorrow and suffering that the card represents!!
BradGad Posted June 9 Author Posted June 9 On 6/5/2025 at 5:13 PM, JoyousGirl said: Yes. And this was a deck interview asking about the work he and the deck would do together. So the context is different. We can walk past thousands of people each day and not think about their story. When we read for people - when we are working with the cards and engaging with these "strangers" we become confidants. They tell us things, and we are no longer strangers but intimately linked and journeying a segment of the path together in awareness of each other. So rather than being a beggar on the street with a story we walk past, we are stopping to acknowledge them, if that makes sense. So I kind of get what Brad and this deck interview is talking about now. The card itself represents pain and sorrow - yes. None of us deny that. But in the context of working with the cards/deck as a whole, which is what the reading was about, you are stepping into the story with someone, and sharing a part of the journey with someone to evolve in some way, together. We tend to care more about people if we know them and love them. This is a way of knowing them, and maybe vulnerability and pain is a way to connect so we're not all such disparate entities. There's probably been a bit of getting the wrong end of the stick. If we were to ask the cards "what are some things to expect when reading for other people" the 3 Swords might come up. It doesn't mean we'll be in pain, it means we'll be exposed to it. It's situational. As for you @BradGad - maybe take a little more time clarifying what you mean. 😄 Hope you're ok as you've felt some of the alienation, sorrow and suffering that the card represents!! > As for you @BradGad - maybe take a little more time clarifying what you mean. 😄 Hope you're ok as you've felt some of the alienation, sorrow and suffering that the card represents!! Thank you @JoyousGirl. I'm OK! I think this thread has been far more contentious than it needs to be, but I'm fine. I don't feel battered or bruised; I have big-boy pants. I was concerned, for a while, that one point of view (well, *my* point of view) was getting shouted down without a real hearing, but that's not the case now... there's your comment, plus a number of others. You asked me to take a more time clarifying what I mean... I think I have explained, but I'll try coming at it from a different direction... Because of a traumatic event early in my life, I got "programmed" to shut down when faced with painful or sorrowful situations. I can't feel as I wish I could. I actually am extremely challenged... I would say I am crippled... in my capacity to feel appropriate sorrow, either for something others are experiencing or for something I have done. I just shut down. I'm remembering a time, say 12 years ago, when one of our cats went missing overnight. The next morning my wife and I started a search, spiraling out around the house in opposite directions. After 15 - 20 minutes of the search, I heard this terrible, heart-wrenching wail... a cry of such sorrow. I knew right away of course: my wife had found Monty, and he was dead. And she let out this cry from the bottom of her heart... pain and sorrow. I was sad that Monty had come to a violent end (I knew it right away), but, honestly, my main emotion at that point was envy. Or not envy... admiration? I so wished my heart could be that raw and open and immediate, like my wife's can be... like my wife's is... that I could feel the right feelings in the moment, instead of shutting them down in a box, to be dealt with later... or never. In the context of this deck interview spread, asking what my role should be, I honestly read it as I should try to grow, change, heal, in this respect. I should try to *not* shut down. I should try to *feel* sorrow. I should try to take on sorrow. I should try to embrace rather than deny it. And that if I could, if my heart stopped being numb and dumb, that truly would be a gift. And I don't think there is anything selfish about that. I don't think I am preying upon or exploiting or de-valuing what other people are going through (there were no other people in this deck-interview spread). It was all about how sorrow can be a gate for a more open heart.
Misterei Posted June 15 Posted June 15 On 6/2/2025 at 5:41 AM, BradGad said: Many experience the Three of Swords as a problematic card. I was certainly in this camp for a long time. ... The RWS version in particular... that image of a heart pierced by three swords is very hard to "unsee," Yes, deck matters. 3 Swords in RWS with a heart pierced by 3 blades is heartbreak, heartache, and in a medical reading--heart problems. In a Tarocchi or TdM pip deck, I find more leeway. But I still read swords as the suit of sorrow and suffering. 3 is a dynamic number or momentum number. Which sounds good, but dynamic sorrow--is still sorrow. And sorrow gaining momentum? On 6/2/2025 at 5:41 AM, BradGad said: At first I felt something like, "Aw man! Bummer! Three great cards, but also Sorrow!" ... ... I have come to view the presence of the card as a very positive thing. In other strands of my practice, I have been working on softening my heart, opening my heart chakra, trying to be better able to feel and empathize with others. And I realized: Sorrow can be a powerful gate for this. ... I feel we're conflating 2 different things [your comments and some of the other posts]. How one REACTS to sorrow is a different topic than the sorrow itself. For example, malefic planets in an astro chart. Malefic Saturn may act to purify your karma and spiritualize your life--but not with sunshine and fluffy bunnies. That's more a Benefic Venus thing. Similarly, Swords is a malefic suit. 3 Swords is a malefic card. If the suffering spiritualizes your life or deepens of your compassion, fair enough. But that was your REACTION to the sorrow. it doesn't negate the malefic experience. I have experienced extreme anguish and heartbreak that broke my heart open to transcendent universal love. I've experienced heartbreak that left me broken, bitter, and reeling. It depends on many factors. We all have our personal take on cards. However, if I start reading the malefic suit of swords as benefic--it skews the deck away from neutral.
Pierre-Yves Posted August 19 Posted August 19 My two cents: The 3 of Swords is an interesting card. I don't believe there are good cards and bad cards. We don't live in a Western with good guys and bad guys; life is more complex than that. Suffering is at the heart of the human experience. No one can escape it. Someone mentioned that this is one of the truths of Buddhism. And, as mentioned, I believe that this card is more about grief, mourning, regret—in short, our reaction to suffering—than suffering itself. In her book Tarot for Change, Jessica Dore describes the 3 of Swords as three difficult emotions, with anger often being the sword in front that hides the other two. For her, the card is an invitation to take the time to explore and feel all the difficult emotions that anger protects. Accepting discomfort for a moment and experiencing these emotions often brings benefits (including developing empathy) or at least some relief. Personally, I believe that the meaning of the cards is not fixed and immutable. We must not forget that tarot was originally a simple game that illustrators embellished to appeal to the Italian bourgeoisie of the 15th century. A few hundred years later, occultists gave the arcana meanings in line with their era. Even though they have been repeated in numerous books, these meanings are not truths, they are only interpretations. It is up to us to challenge and question them, as do the many artists who reinterpret the image of the arcana. Tarot is not static, it is alive and evolving.
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